Remove last survivor Mori or build in unbreakable for slugging.

Honestly, I very much want to fight for the finisher mori system to get removed. I can't believe it was implemented in the first place, and I see it as bringing almost exclusively negative impacts to the game.

It provides an incentive to slug for the 4k, which if we're lucky, BHVR will find a way to deal with, but it also gives killers a basekit ability to deny survivors the benefits of their gameplay and perks at the endgame since there's no longer a chance for the last survivor to wiggle off on their way to the hook to make those rare endgame escapes to hatch or an already open gate. I still remember some of mine where I've escaped from a Bubba and managed to loop across the whole map to an open gate, or ended up pulling an escape while running through multiple Skull Merchant drones and getting deep wound while getting to hatch. Those are just gone now.

Beyond that, it provides a built-in victory dance for the player who's beaten the other player (in this case the killer showing off on top of the survivor), so it acts like an official teabag animation that the losing player is forced to watch. And it's not like with actual teabagging at gate, where the killer can force the survivors out or just choose not to watch them do it. I've always disliked moris, but didn't fully understand why until the finisher mori was released for some time. What I've come to find is that I see moris as being extremely toxic since they're essentially built-in teabag animations the losing player is forced to watch.

As a side-impact, there appears to be almost nobody giving hatch anymore. I still give hatch, but I've only seen it done by other people a couple times since the update was released. I'm not saying anyone is entitled to hatch, but it was an act of goodwill between players that's mostly gone now.

And even if it's made into the green mori, there's still potentially a possible incentive to tunnel to ensure a mori is gained. I really don't see any way how a basekit mori system does anything good for the game.

And all those things are brought in so that we get animations that don't add any horror into the game. They don't bring back the thrill of the chase we all experienced in our first few hundred hours, and the animations aren't even gruesome. And even if they were gory, there's not really much horror in gore. I mean, I'm fine watching a scene in TCM where someone's face is flayed off, and that adds to the need for the characters to survive, but moris don't really add any horror to DBD since there's nothing to survive afterwards.

I find the game as survivor to be much less fun as a result of all these things, especially the way it feels like a built-in show off animation by the winning side. All this has ruined a significant part of this game I've poured countless hours into, and I would love for it to be reverted :(

I really don't understand the idea that if someone escapes through hatch, it's a "free escape". The game isn't one player against another equal player, or a team explicitly always against the killer. It's most accurately four 1v1 matches, where the survivors need to work together if they want to get the gens done and have the best chance to survive. But none of the survivors can survive an entire match if the killer just wants them out.

With that extreme asymmetric structure, if some survivors make mistakes, that doesn't mean the rest of the survivors did poorly. I think hatch gives a fair chance for the last survivor to escape, especially since their team can go down without them making mistakes. And it's potentially deserved since killers will sometimes break chase against very good loopers if they're not going to finish a chase in time. I know that if I have one or two gens left and I see two survivors, I might decide to go for the less talented one so I can gain quick pressure.

That means it's not so uncommon for the person getting hatch to have outplayed the killer. Since the other three survivors could have made mistakes while the killer was unable to get the last one (without risking the gens getting done), it's not clear to me why the last survivor shouldn't have a fair chance at escape.

And since the killer is vastly more powerful than any individual survivor, it seems very reasonable that the last survivor should get that fair chance at escaping by an alternate mechanism; otherwise why even bother to play out the endgame? Personally, I view any match where I stop the gens from getting done as a good performance on my side, and whether the last survivor gets out typically makes no difference to me because the last survivor escaping doesn't mean I did a bad job. Likewise, the rng nature of hatch doesn't usually have any bearing on my own performance in a match; it just gives the last survivor a reasonable chance to escape, which seems very fair.

remove the finisher mori. Do something about the slugging or continue to lose survivors in this game. I used to play with about 15, now there is only 3 of us.

The finisher Mori doesn't really encourage slugging for the 4k. Sure, if it's your first time ever winning on the killer you might want to see the Mori but other than that people don't really feel like wasting minutes of their time for a 10 second animation they can see whenever they want. You are talking about Endgame escape situations but if the last survivor made themself unhookable most killers would just have gone for the bleed out instead of just giving up hatch so it's an improvement.

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You comparing the finisher Mori to a tbag when those are completely different in every aspect.

• Representation: Tbagging and humping are meant to represent doing s*xual actions on the other player, meanwhile the finisher Mori literally shows the killer killing someone.
• Time: If you tbag or hump someone you are wasting both your and the other players time to be toxic. Going for the Mori on the last survivor is usually faster than picking them up, finding a hook, hooking them and then letting the animations finish.
• Intention: Tbagging and humping is intended to make the other side angry. Mori is literally just done as a quirky way to end the game. I have literally never seen anyone before now who considers going for the Mori to be more toxic. This sounds entirely like a you issue. You remind me of the guy who said bringing bloody party streamers is toxic.

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I have no seen any change in how many times I have been given hatch since the finisher Mori was implemented and I have yet to see a substantial increase in 4k Rates/ drop in 3k rates to prove it.

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Idk when you started, but I started in 2023 and I never perceived dbd as a scary game. Sure jumpscare Myers got me a few times, but I was never really scared of trapper or deathslinger or skull merchant or whatever. Dead by daylight isn't really a scary game.

Now with your points addressed let's talk about positives of the Mori system:

• Challenges are less annoying. In the past the best way to complete a Daily Ritual or Tome Challenge to kill Survivors by hand was to bring an expensive Mori offering. In addition to needing bp and relying on the bloodweb, it meant you couldn't bring any offering you might want to bring, mostly blood point offerings. Now you can complete these challenges without that or even easier if you do bring this stuff.
• Unhookable survivors are less annoying. Relatively early in my dbd I got against survivors who brought ebony hook offering and the last survivor managed to keep going down in the corner. Playing for the win, I just bleed them out. This situation would not be as annoying without the finisher Mori. There are many similar scenarios where the killer has essentially won, but the last survivor is unhookable for some reason. Before it would have been optimal for the killer to just go for the bleed out. Now they can actually legitimately win the game.

The finisher mori absolutely incentivises slugging for 4k since it can only be performed on the last survivor in the match, and can thus be obtained more often by slugging for 4k. It absolutely incentivises slugging for 4k by hiding a prize behind getting the last survivor, which is trivial in a slug for 4k situation.

You also suggested that the killer could just go for the bleedout during endgame escapes. But that's not possible in cases where a wiggle-out would lead to an escape through an already open gate; the survivor would just crawl out of the gate. And survivors cannot make themselves unhookable now that hooks respawn.

Those "representations" you mentioned all sound pretty negative to me. How is one worse than another, other than the fact that the losing player has to watch the mori? Also, all three of those things are done in DbD as victory celebrations.

There is also relatively little time difference between carrying someone to a hook and doing a mori. And by not carrying the survivor ro the hook, the killer is given a basekit ability to deny wiggling out and perks like Boil Over or Power Struggle, which seems rather unfair. If I want to deny survivors those benefits, it seems like I should bring a perk or an offering to do it.

Celebrations in most games are indeed considered toxic by most players, and are often frustrating to the losing side. And moris are a celebration for the killer. Making the losing player watch a victory celebration isn't part of gaming, it's just bad manners by the person who makes the other players watch their celebration. I've also never heard someone say a celebration by the winning side of a game that the losing side is forced to watch is fun. Must be a you thing. I know most people I know would stop interacting with someone who forces their opponent to watch them gloat when they win at games.

I have seen almost zero hatches given since the finisher mori update was released, a significant drop since the time before it was released.

It was never a scary game, but a lot of people did feel tension during chase in their early days. I'd imagine most people stop feeling that tension anymore at some point. I remember that happened for me at a few hundred hours. I never really found it scary either though; it just got my heart rate up during chase, but that was the closest thing the game had to being scary. Moris aren't going to bring that back though.

Now with your points out of the way, let's talk about the things you said are positive about the finisher mori:

• Challenges to kill someone with your own hand are pretty easy if you bring an ebony mori. I personally have always left those challenges undone though since I don't like forcing my opponents to watch me do celebrations on their downed bodies. There's usually another way to get through a tome anyway.

• Unhookable survivors aren't a thing anymore. Hooks respawn now.

There is essentially no benefit to the gameplay by having the finisher mori. Instead, it introduces almost exclusively negative effects by providing a built-in victory celebration that one player can force another player who has lost the match to watch. It also gives one player a basekit ability to deny the benefits of perks and gameplay of other players. It also hides the finisher mori behind downing the last player which is easily done by slugging for 4k, thus incentivising slugging for 4k. We have essentially gained a way to force the losing player to watch the winner gloat while also gaining increased incentives to slug for 4k.

The mori is not a reward, its literally the same thing every time. It offers nothing special, its no different than a hook.

Sometimes the last Survivors is just in a bad spot to hook and all gates are closed, sometimes the Survivor is on the ground and the only gate that is open is across the map.

In a game about a killer killing people, trying to act like your having sexual intercourse with another player is definiteless less appropiate than the killer killing someone.

I also love how you both try to argue that there is no reason for the killer to go for the bleedout on the last Survivors if the mori was a thing, but also that the mori should be removed for the cases where you may be able to wiggle out.

Moris arent a celebration of victory, they are just a quick way to end the game.

Again, if there well less hatches given we should see a rise in 4ks and a drop in 3ks while no change in 0k, 1k or 2k numbers. Show me those numbers.

So what? I don't think every change should make dbd more bloodpumping.

-They were easy, but compared to other killer dailies they were annoying. Now they are even less annoying. We all know griding sucks. This makes it easier.

-There are plenty of scenarios where you cannot hook a Survivor by picking them up. A short list of examples.

1. There are two Survivors left in the trial. You know one of them has Flip Flop and Power Struggle from earlier and the other Survivor has background player. All gens are done, but no gates are open yet, tho one is 99%. You down Survivor A in a pallet. You see Survivor B nearby and not wanting to get pallet saved you manage to down them and then hook them. Survivor A refuses to leave the Pallet for the remainder of the trial and bleeds out there.
2. A survivor runs boil over and is down at the very end of the lab room in underground complex and no hook happened to have spawned in the lab room.
3. A gate is open across the map. You are carrying a survivor but the hook becomes sabotaged, you drop the Survivor, you scare away the remaining Survivors out of the trial. The slugged Survivor cannot reach the gate in time, but you know they have enough wiggle progress if you pick them up, they will wiggle out.
4. A Survivor runs power struggle (reveleaed earlier in the trial) and gets downed on the game in one of these corner loops between two pallets. Neither pallet has been dropped yet.

There is Survivor to Survivor griefing. I'm trying to die on hook because I know the game is over. Little Meg doesn't want to be Mori'd so she rushes to save me. Then she surrenders herself so she can Sacrifice and I be the one Mori'd. Just a new level of selfishness behavior.

I appreciate this discussion. I think we're drilling down to some details now :)

I want to take the time to respond thoughtfully, but have to do other stuff first. I'll update later, but I wanted to say I appreciate the discussion for real :D

Edit: Promised response -

I've seen that happen multiple times, as well as killers waiting out anything in the way of getting their mori, whether it's bleedout timers or survivors on hook.

A survivor is generally not very unhookable if they can wiggle free once. That's what makes those wiggle escapes so exciting - the killer will almost always get the survivor back down, at which point it's easy to hook them. So getting a wiggle-out that leads to an escape is fun to see on both sides for me.

I have to say that bleeding someone out to prevent an escape doesn't involve talent. I'm not going to wait out a bleedout timer just to get an extra kill. Whether a killer wants to drop a survivor and wait out their bleedout timer has more to do with whether they want to make everyone do nothing for a few minutes when they could instead be spending that time on their next match.

A lot of killers do like to use their mori animation. You'll hear that around these forums and see it in game. The problem is that they're forcing the survivor to watch them celebrate. We can say all we want that it's not a celebration, but that's like saying that doing a special dance after winning a game isn't a celebration. It's distinctly different than the hook animation which is rather neutral, and doesn't involve watching the winning player doing something to the losing player. Instead, the player-to-player interaction is done, and the death animation that follows doesn't involve either side doing something to the other side, which is fairly ideal for reducing any tension a player might feel.