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I bet you if Killer players complained about Finisher Mori.
It would be reversed faster than a window in Badham or Survivors gaining more vault distance.
Comments
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3-gen feature is still there and it was complained a lot against it. Soooo not really
If you think survivors have no "say" to game balancing, let's look at Skully.9 -
The finisher mori is not the problem. It's hatch.
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I wrote some big long response to this, but I want to ask why you think hatch is the problem before writing things so that I'm not making assumptions. Why do you think hatch is a problem?
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Hatch is what leads to slugging for the 4K which is the criticism that Finisher Moris have. As long a hatch is an RNG mechanic that can gift a survivor an escape by being lucky, killers will feel forced to slug to earn a 4K.
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And what is your solution? Just removing it would lead to long dragged out matches and you can´t expect that survivors won´t do that.
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An idea would be that hatch opens after charging a progress bar by the survivor hiding near the killer or while being chased. Then instead of having killers be able to close the hatch it becomes a race of the killer finding and downing the survivor before hatch opens and they can escape via it. The hatch location should become visible so killers can try to run survivors away from the hatch and survivors know where they need to escape once they built up the progress.
This way you get a sort of final confrontation that you see from Horror movies while removing the rng nature of the hatch.
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But hatch doesn't cause slugging for 4k. That's like saying laws cause crimes because if there weren't laws, people wouldn't have to commit crimes to circumvent them.
Really, hatch and the finisher mori aren't explicitly related. The finisher mori simply gives a killer and extra reason why they might want to go to whatever length they they need to get the free mori. That's a flaw in the finisher mori design though, not in the design of hatch.
Generally, hatch isn't a problem at all. Killers who often slug for a 4k will say that to justify slugging for 4k. But hatch is present explicitly to prevent the things that slugging for the 4k causes: a long, drawn-out game of hide-and-seek that can last for several minutes and wastes time, and a hopeless situation for the last survivor that realistically is a forgone conclusion in the case of a slug for 4k situation. Slugging for 4k leads to that long drawn-out endgame that hatch was meant to prevent, and generates a situation where the last survivors are almost guaranteed to lose.
As you mentioned, some people don't like that getting hatch is essentially random. And it could be that finding some skill-based mechanism to get or deny hatch would be useful. That would need to be very carefully balanced to ensure that the last survivor has a real reason to play out the endgame across all MMR levels, which is quite challenging. Without hatch though (or some similar mechanism to give the last survivor a reason to try at the endgame), we would likely see a very large fraction of matches ending in a long game of hide-and-seek.
We could trigger the endgame collapse as soon as there's one survivor left, but that would lead to the same complaints since the door spawn locations and the specific killer being played would often determine whether the killer can get the last survivor. But if we didn't have any realistic escape mechanism at the endgame, there would be essentially no point in finishing most matches where all the gens don't get done.
Ultimately though, hatch is very useful for the game's health. But with some effort, a skill-based hatch system could be implemented that might satisfy some people who don't like its rng nature. I worry about balance across MMR levels in that case, but multiple extensive PTB tests could help with that.
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I have to correct you there, slugging for the 4k is absolutely a byproduct of hatch. It was prevalent before the Finisher Mori, and it still is now. If you have a challenge, or an Adept, or some other 4k condition you have to satisfy, the only way to do it reliably to get the 4k is slug for the 4k, if you don't then you risk losing the 4th survivor to hatch.
Imagine if survivors after powering and opening the gates were each blocked individually from leaving until they touched the exit line, which would then spawn a gem somewhere in the map that they then had to run back to and interact with before they could leave. That's effectively what hatch is to killer, an additional layer of busy work that can just screw you out of a win that you have no control over.
I agree with you the hatch is necessary because without it, the survivor game can quickly fall into no hope situations, e.g. 2 players die with 3 gens left to go, that's a dead lose situation, so there is no point continuing to play... but because of hatch we still have a game, though unfortunately this also leads to the 2 players hide permanently situation... but the point is the alternative in a hatchless world is survivors just give themselves up to die when the game is unwinnable, or more likely hide until the server death.
However, the goal for killer is to kill all 4 survivors, and you can't blame killers for trying to complete their objective. Its literally the point of the killer game. Hatch how it is now is an additonal obstacle for the killer, where you can lose the last kill in a game you are winning by complete rng. If you've ever tried to get all adepts in the game, slugging for the 4k is a necessary evil you cannot avoid acknowledging, and a variable you have to diminish as much as possible. Even if you find the hatch first, you still haven't won, because the gates are powered... so that's 2 additional methods you can lose the 4k that slugging for the 4k circumvents... and as I day, there is nothing inherently evil or wrong about the killer wanting to 4k, every aspect of the game rewards you for killing all 4 players with MMR, points, end game ratings, lore, challenges and achievements all affirming 4ka, not 3ks.
So hatch is a problem... yes it's a necessary component of the game, but one that makes it so that slugging for the 4k is also a required part of the game. The two go hand in hand.
A skill based hatch is an interesting idea, but the main thing those set of changes has to achieve is to make it so the killer has a better chance of catching the survivor before they reach hatch than they do slugging to prevent it spawning at all... so you need a strong incentive to play hatch, and a strong decentive to leaving a 3rd payer slugged.
All the Finisher Mori has done is put a spotlight on an existing problem in the game, and in my experience slugging for the 4k is no more conmon than it was before; the main thing that has changed is very few people give hatch anymore...
And tbh, as a horror fan, I kinda like seeing the mori as a survivor... and if they add new equippable mori's to the store for each killer (and/or improved the animation on the older Mori's), I'd be much more happy to be Mori'd.
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An idea : the hatch spawns closed and the end game collapse triggers as soon as the third survivor dies.
So the game will end in 2 to 4 mins max. The killer wouldn't have the feeling that a random survivor got a free escape by finding the hatch.
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Mori is fine and no it has not increased slugging anymore than it was before the addition of the finishing mori. If you don't want to watch it then just hit esc or tab out.
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Lol what? Killers complaints are actively ignored 99% of the time, hell they usually make things worse. Meanwhile (reasonable) survivor complaints are dealt with promptly. Survivors have practically all the say in game balancing and you all still try and gaslight killers.
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People need to stop to think like it is 2 fractions fighting each other. You're free to play both parties. You only decide to main one side and complain about the other.
Play both sides to get a full picture and realize, both sides have struggles, no one has a say.4 -
You're right that slugging for 4k couldn't exist without hatch, and I think you and I essentially agree about some fundamentals, and only disagree about some definitions or preferences around some stuff :)
I think you're right that slugging for 4k can be considered a byproduct of hatch. But it isn't caused by hatch. Hatch is a tool/exit path/obstacle depending on who's looking at it. But on its own, it doesn't cause slugging for 4k. I'm not expressing disapproval at you or anyone in particular, though I have to say I'm very tired of hearing people say hatch causes slugging for 4k. That's like saying cars cause carjackings, or laws cause crimes, or computers cause phishing scams.
As you mentioned, slugging for 4k is a byproduct of the existence of hatch, just like crimes are a byproduct of laws, carjackings aren't possible without cars, and phishing emails can't go out without computers. But cars don't cause carjackings and laws don't cause people to do the things that are crimes. In the same way, hatch doesn't cause slugging for 4k. Those things happen because of the motivation of the person taking those actions; they're looking for a certain result that they would seek even in the absence of cars or laws or hatch.
I think the ability to bypass hatch is a severe flaw in its design as well. Slugging for 4k is currently a basekit ability of every killer. That realistically means that hatch may as well not even exist since any killer can just force the last survivor into that same situation hatch is meant to prevent. I play killer a lot too, but I see hatch more like a very reasonable balancing mechanism than an obstacle in any way. Anyway, that last bit is just an opinion. But I think hatch doesn't cause slugging for 4k; slugging for 4k is caused by killers being willing to slug a survivor to push the last survivor into the hide-and-seek match hatch was made to avoid.
Also, thanks for the comment; I tend to respect the things I see you say around here :D
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And how is the survivor meant to escape if he doesn’t have a key? There needs something survivors are able to do and in your proposal they need to be lucky in finding a key, which is not a good thing.
Sounds interesting and better for both sides, but killers would probably still slug for the 4K. The last two survivors would still need some counterplay to slugging.
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Exit gates are powered and hatch is closed, the EGC triggers. So now you need a key to open hatch basekit and there is less incentive to slug.
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As long as the hatch spawns opened, killer can feel incentivized to not give a free luck based hatch and can slug.
If both hatch spawns closed and EGC starts after the end of the sacrifice animation of the third survivor (exit gates powered if you didn't know), killer has time to contest the last survivor escape, unless the survivor has a key.
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Sorry I forgot about that, but the killer can still just slug for the 4K since it is safer to do than giving survivors a chance to escape. It wouldn’t change much.
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Thanks man, appreciate that 😅
Just wanna go on record as saying much love and respect man 😁
That's a fair enough perspective and I think you're spot on, we agree on pretty much all major points. The only point I think we differ on (and even then only slightly), is while we both agree its mean, unfun and lame to slug for the 4k (I don't do it unless I really have to), I don't see it as a heinous action to necessarily be ashamed of.
At its purest DBD is a simple premise. The survivors need to repair the generators and open the gate to escape before the killer kills all of them. That is the most basic rule of the game, survivors try to live, killers try to kill everyone.
Now I personally like to create a game where everyone is having fun for the most part. If survivors make a horrific mistake I will punish them, but for the most part I'll avoid playing mean and try to make a decent game of it. Sometimes I get my ass beat and I have to start playing nastier to pose a reasonable challenge or punish an obnoxious play style, but mostly I play pretty chill... but this mindset comes with the knowledge that playing this was is not the most effective way to win... and I will reiterate, I don't think it's fair to demonise the killer for playing what they perceive is the best option to win.
With that in mind, lets look at the issue with hatch with a hypothetical where we force hatch somehow. Doesn't matter how really, lets just assume we force it. In this case, it doesnt matter how much better the killer performed than the survivors, doesn't matter how much pressure, control, fast chases they pulled off, the game will always result in the same... a hatch showdown. The issue is hatch is not a test of skill for either side it is pure RNG who gets it. It takes the killer from a place of winning the game by complete domination, to losing the 4k through absolutely no fault of their own. Obviously we could throw up challenges and adepts to defend it again, but if we focus on the pure game, hatch is literally a dice roll or a coin flip at the end for the killers game to determine if they won the 4k or not...
Now where I think you take the stance the killer, knows they are doing something blatantly unfun, boring, annoying and upsetting to the survivor side, and yes they are absolutely aware of that. Based on that logic they should not do it... and I do actually agree with you, I don't do it either withoit very good reason... but in the same breathe I acknowledge that I'm basically saying "don't try to win", which if we're honest, is not really fair to say to killer players..
The flipside perspective is the very concept of hatch is exactly the same for a lot of killers; unfun, boring, annoying and upsetting. It takes all the killers work and says "none of what you've done over this game matters, the survivor can still get the right RNG and escape. You only got a 3k". It's easy to say "well a 3k is a win still", but that is kinda irrelevant, we all understand 4k is the killers objective, and the killer has to literally make 2 separate coin flips (hatch, then gate) to win it...and I think any reasonable person can admit... that does suck. For that reason, while I do accept slugging for the 4k is a little selfish and lame... it's also kinda selfish and lame to say the killer MUST play this RNG coin flip if they ever genuinely want to secure a 4k... someone has to lose, and I guess it's up to the player which side they fall on.
The unfortunate case of hatch is it's a necessary evil that becomes very hard to balance for, because fundamentally, it is a pretty BS additional step placed on the killers win condition... however without it the game suffers more overall... and in the same way, slugging for the 4k being completely removed would make so many killer challenges absolutely insufferably annoying, and basically make genuinely going for the 4k pretty pointless…
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That's fair. It probably also helps that I don't really see a difference in my matches between a 3k and a 4k. In my eyes, both are good performances on my side. It also probably helps that I run BBQ on a number of my builds, so I often hook the third survivor, then run straight to the fourth, down them... and then probably carry them to the hatch :)
Oddly, sometimes I like survivors to know that I'm letting them go, hence downing them first, or just winning hatch race and waiting not far from it to see them off. There are cases where I'll see someone is having a bad match and just 'miss' attacks and stuff, but I like to have that 'handshake' at the end of the game.
And I totally get the need to occasionally pull the kid gloves off and hit back against a bully squad. The only real counter I have for a very talented bully squad is to slug them until I think nobody's around for a save. That's why sometimes I'll pump the brakes on my ostensibly survivor-sided arguments and say that there are some things we just need to be careful about.
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It's funny how much our playstyles mirror xD
Amusingly I've been playing a lot of Hag today... it's crazy cause I never enjoy facing Hag cause they all camp and tunnel, trap the balls out of hooks and wait for someone to trade only to tunnel out anyway....
But I really enjoy maintaining a Web of traps and putting them in weird little off the beaten path places where survivors don't immediately think to check...and I've been avoiding tunneling players and instead gone spreading hooks, and I never trap a hook. Maybe a path to hook, but never the hook itself... also screw Rusty Shackles xD
M&A, Coup, and Surge have been doing heavy lifting. 4th perk I haven't decided between Make Your Choice, PWYF, Batteries Included, Forced Hesitation I've been trying, and they all work, but only so so value...
Anyway, I've had this weird run of games where I keep encountering BGP flashbang squads... I dunno if some content creator has done something with flashbangs lately... but I've faced at least 4 duos and trios all with flashbangs...
Has been amusing cause after a point, I have been trapping either side of me before I go to pick up,and cause Hag traps yoink your camera, their BGP runs them off course suddenly and completely messes up the save xD
Bully squads man... will they ever truly die? XD
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Bully squads… Bully squads never change... something something Fallout...
Kinda awesome that you can get built-in blind protection! As far as perks for her, someone made me laugh once by suggesting Franklin's on Hag so she can trap the dropped items... survivors should see it coming, but it's funny :)
Interestingly, all this talk of adepts made me decide to go for my Pig adept today. So I popped her three perks on, and ended up having one survivor eliminated, one who was having a bad match, and two others with one or two hook states each. I slugged the one who was struggling so she could get picked up and back in the match, but ended up putting the other two on hooks before they got to her. I felt like I slugged for 4k even though two were still up when I left her on the ground. It was a weird match :(
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Maaaaaan, not the "wait, no one saved you!?" guilt xD
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Dealt with promptly
Dealt with… but not promptly. Also we do get ignored.
- Endurance on Unhooks took us several years to get, and upon release it was so horrible that it was basically useless. In the same patch they also gutted anti-tunnel so tunneling was super easy. They did later buff it to be more effectively but it is still lackluster on it's own and you still need to bring anti-tunnel builds to avoid being tunneled.
- We still dont have any way to Bleed Out faster so Survivors can still be slugged to death for 4-minutes because the Killer actively refuses to hook/mori Survivors out of pettiness or toxicity, this has been an issue for years and nothing has been done about it.
- Anti-Camp is laughably bad and can be ignored in most cases; it unironically made camping worse since Killers now proxy the hook which was the optimal way of camping anyways. Also ranged Killers can just sit in front of the hook from a distance with their M2 pulled up which just completely ignores this system anyways.
The only good/impactful change they have done recently.
- The only meaningful change they have made was increasing the duration you can remain on hook since the extra time allows Survivors to have more time to prepare for save or to finish a Generator/heal before going in for a save. Unironically I dont think people appreciate this single change and how meaningful it is.
Survivors have practically all the say in game balancing and you all still try to gaslight Killers.
Objectively wrong, BHVR listens to both sides.
We've recently see massive buffs to Killer powers:
- Demogorgon buffed.
- Twins buffed.
- Bubba buffed.
- Unknown buffed.
- Dracula buffed several times over.
- Houndmaster buffed several times over.
- Nemesis buffed.
- Myers buffed.
- Clown buffed.
- Huntress buffed.
- Deathslinger buffed.
- Dredge buffed.
- Knight reworked, and in many cases, just better now for the macro game.
- Wesker nerfed.
- Chucky nerfed.
- Skull Merchant gutted, but BHVR has stated that they are being reworked.
- Freddy has a planned reworked but has received minor buffs/changes to their addons.
Safe to say BHVR is trying their best to listen to the community as a whole. Granted, they sometimes make panic decisions that are horrible, like they did with Skull Merchant and Machine Learning, but I really dont think BHVR is strictly listening to Survivors when they have buffed more than they nerfed recently.
None of this is to be "woah Survivors have it bad" but Im tired of seeing posts/comments acting like BHVR "only" cares about Survivors when it is very clear that they are trying to appeal to both sides.
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Well I think Dracula and Chucky are great examples on their own, cause both of them are constantly flip flopping trying to find a middle ground for both sides.
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Took them ages to nerf her, OP is right killers gets what they wants in 1 month at max!
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Btw finisher mori cancels hatch entering animation which is so silly, like dude I earned that escape!
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killers gets what they wants in 1 month at max
lol, you are new here it seems, or just see only what you want to see…
CoH lasted more than a year.
MFT 5 months, FTP Buckle up 11 months.
Skully got first rework after 7 months and tactical nuke 1 year after it.
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Dude I'm talking about recent stuff not stuff from ages ago when no one listened to feedbacks! Playing dbd since 2018 and devs are listening now but usually to killer mains which is really sad!
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That stuff is within duration of skull merchant. So if you want to talk about Skully, it includes changes during that time.
devs are listening now but usually to killer mains which is really sad
Changes within last year suggest otherwise…
You think killers wanted nerfs for Skully, Chucky, Pop, Pain res, Deadlock, Ultimate weapon, anticamp feature, anti 3-gen feature, Weave Attunement? I am sure I could find more, but I got lazy…
Tell me what survivors got nerfed? I remember MFT, Adrenaline, Buckle up…
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Because survs don't have broken perks/addons or powers! Look at overbuffed Myers that even in Japan tier list he at higher list, he is a monster against solos! Chucky needed nerf and now he is less ping dependent
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he is a monster against solos
Everyone is monster against solos. But fix for that is asking for changes to help soloQ, not just nerf any killer you don't manage to win against….
because survs don't have broken perks/addons
Right now there is no really broken perks, but they definetly have many strong perks, which includes Finesse.
Syringe, BNP, Styptic Agent are still very strong.What perk is exactly broken on killer side? All slowdown perks got nerfed. Ultimate weapon gutted, Weave Attunement nerfed (that was good change)
Chucky needed nerf and now he is less ping dependent
He might needed changes, but he was overnerfed a lot. I am fine with worse Dash, but his cooldown was supposed to be reduced for it. His cooldown is joke compared to any other killer.
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Those things are mostly just balancing mechanisms that make the last survivor escaping into a somewhat reasonable possibility. Hatch race is generally somewhat killer-sided, and for the entire duration of the hatch race + egc, the survivor has to avoid the killer.
Hatch plus gates together give an okay chance for the last survivor to escape, but one that sometimes favors the killer and sometimes the survivor, depending on hatch and gate positions. Honestly, that seems fair to me. If the escape odds for the last survivor were too low, I'd suspect we would see a significant increase in the number of survivors hiding for the endgame, even if egc is triggered.
You're right about Sole Survivor + Wake Up, but that's not so different than a killer running No Way Out + NOED.
Also, and this is just my own perspective, but I honestly don't understand why a 4k matters to a killer player. I find a 3k with a hatch escape to be essentially the same performance as if I got a 4k, but then one survivor lives to tell the tale :)
Anyway, I guess we could argue that blood points matter, so the killer is getting robbed of some bp? Or maybe some people don't feel good enough about winning unless they completely defeat everyone?
Anyway, I think it's good that the last survivor has a reason to play out the endgame and not just hide. A lot of people conplain about the rng thing, but the hatch race is almost as strategic as monitoring gates. There's an optimal way for the killer and survivor to run around the map to optimize their chances of finding hatch first.
A skill-based replacement for hatch could be okay, but it would be very challenging to balance across all MMR levels. I think some kind of limited duration hide-and-seek might be a good solution since both high and low MMR survivors should be able to hide. But I think very low MMR survivors will still have an easier time with hatch as it is. And that may be helping with player retention.
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it's 2025. and there are still people thinking BHVR constantly favors just one side in this game in terms of balance, wild
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Finally, another Killer that like me, still gives hatch because a 3k and 4k are the same to them. If I feel you deserve it? You get hatch. I probably got my 4k and Mori in another round, anyway.
Hell sometimes I'm fine with a 2k, if we're really vibing.
My deepest and sincerest wish is that all adepts are changed to ONLY needing to get a 3k, or just playing a round with all 3 perks and getting the equivalent of a 3k. I really don't like needing to slug to earn adepts. It feels bad.
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The problem of 4K slugging the counters to it are coordinated SWF teams and solo Q have no real answer to it. Buckle up is a joke and already I have seen some killers complain (like TruTalent) he is seeing entire teams use Unbreakable and Dead hard which is pretty much the only way to stay up against high MMR killers. The meta of 4K Slugging is simple pressure and the lack of urgency to Hooks means no tunneling or having to deal with Shoulder the burden.
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