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Check spots should not be a thing
Generally, tons of loops are far safer than they would normally be due to "check spots" These spots basically allow a survivor to stand still and respond to whatever option or direction the killer is going. Check spots are generally only used by higher level survivors who are aware of them and are able to exploit them. Against average survivors, they generally don't use check spots.
If check spots weren't a thing, many loops like killer shack would become less safe for high level survivors because they would actually be subject to being mindgamed. As it stands now, good survivors can effectively make it impossible to catch them at certain structures like killer shack unless you brute force the window and pallet, and by the time that happens, you probably have lost 3 gens from the rest of the team.
Check spots not existing would do wonders for balancing the game at higher levels without actually impacting lower skill "average" games because survivors at that level typically aren't using them to begin with. It also promotes more skill-based gameplay where each loop is a proper 1v1 mindgame between the survivor and the killer, where the better player winds due to how well the killer can mindgame and trick the survivor, vs the survivor able to respond to the killer and make proper choices based on what the killer has done historically. Similar to fighting games for example, if i know my opponent in Street Fighter ALWAYS goes for a reversal on wakeup, i can instead block it, and get another full combo, then maybe the next time they do it, they instead wake up with a throw and reverse the offense back to me. This is the kind of mindgame "loop" i think would be much more fun for both sides at higher levels of play.
To be clear, when i say "check spot" i don't mean spots where a survivor can watch one end of a loop or the other, i'm specifically talking about spots where you are able to see every option a killer does, and then select the best option for you as a survivor every single time if you simply just wait for a fraction of a second. Many of these at killer shack for example, are because there are holes in the shack that show the stain through the wall, or you can just physically see the killer through the holes.
Comments
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Are we serious…
The DbD forums are never beating the killer bias allegations.
Heavens forbid survivors are able to use their map knowledge in a chase.
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I think it is generally accepted that at the highest level of play (comp for example) that the game is massively survivor sided. This is why comp generally has specific maps and rulesets they play in order to try and balance the game a bit more into the killers favor.
For example, do you think the best trapper player in the world, could beat the best, even 1000 survivors in the world that often? I would suspect if they played 10 games, the trapper may win 1-2 games at most and probably just due to RNG map generation.
The point though, is that remove these types of check spots, balances the game better at these levels, but on the flip side of it, it doesn't really harm survivors in lower MMR brackets, because again, these types of survivors aren't really using check spots, and probably aren't even aware of their existence. And so it wouldn't really harm lower level play where survivors struggle more.
I'm also making the argument that not having check spots leads to more fun and interactive chases between survivor and killer. Instead of every killer shack chase being exactly the same, where the survivor forces the window 3 times until it blocks, then drops the pallet. You would effectively have a chase where at various points, it becomes a 50/50 mindgame where the killer has a chance to outplay the survivor, and the survivor a chance to outplay the killer. But in a more fun dynamic way, and not just in a "flowchart" sort of way where there is no real skill expression on either side.
Do you have any counterpoints to any of these assertions?
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You're. not. playing. comp.
Please, enough of this. Unless you're playing in tournaments, what happens in the comp scene is completely irrelevant. Of course survivors in the comp scene have a huge advantage, because:
- they're on comms
- have thousands of hours of practice
- know the maps they're playing on
- know the killer they will be playing against
- know what perks the killers are/aren't allowed to run
- know the teams they're playing against and what strategies they will use (given that they've likely competed before)
This is not true of the majority of public matches. Yeah you might get a SWF with high hours, but odds are they are just playing for fun and not doing clock callouts and all that nonsense. Comp is such an artificial environment that you cannot make any judgements of game balance from it.
If we balanced the game around comp, the game would die in like a week because no casuals would want to touch it anymore.
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you've gotta be trolling creating this topic with the nurse pfp
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The DbD forums are beyond parody at this point.
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In a sense I get it, but its mostly wrong.
Why its kind of right: video games are perfectly predictable (i.e. everyone runs at the same speed, all the time, no differences), one of the reason they make bad sport and problematic comp scene. If as a survivor you have a perfect understanding of the killer speed and your distance to the pallet, there's no mind game, the killer has no choice but to chase you until you drop it.
The problems though with changing it
1: What is or is not a check spot depends on the killer. Make everything high walls, ranged killers have a problem. A check spot that works against wraith might not work against alien.
2: Check spots of some type are inevitable. You literally can't get rid of them. There will always be a - If I stand at X spot when killer is at Y spot I will make it to Z window - as long as there's no variability that will always happen (and Western comp doesn't like variability).
3: It really underestimates how much checking is done by survivors at all MMR brackets. True, at lower brackets they aren't as good at using them, but the killers aren't at good at running the loops either, and people definitely try.
4: It takes a lot of skill expression out of the game. It just makes everything into one big 50/50.
5: Even when I watch comp players try to demonstrate this, sometimes they mess it up. A presumption that one side is going to play perfectly is a silly balance metric.
6: Guaranteed check spots really only exist with perfect ping, which is something that can really only be guaranteed in a comp setting. This is why check spots lose a lot of there strength in comp when there is any match that exists between different regions.
7: It would take all the theme out of the game. Follow this logic far enough and we end up with the same three or four loops repeated endlessly. Balanced, and the game would die after a few months.
8: It takes out the meta game aspect which is a huge portion of the killer's skill expression. Shack is supposed to be really strong and the killer is supposed to weight he time they'll spend going there to get a down vs. their other risks. This eliminates that taking out the meta game aspect of playing killer.
9: Remove the visual element of check spots and the players with great headphones and hearing get even stronger.
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Checks spots are boring though, standing around the back of a see through shack is not really that interesting, one of the reasons they pivoted away from m1 killers.
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Then let's get rid of them and watch what happens to the game. The proof will be in the pudding 😁
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checkspots as a concept are not something you can really just get rid of, nor should they. Unless you want to make every loop in the game mindgamable (like LT wall level strength), which I am all for, but good luck balancing the game around that when most of the cast has a chase power.
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I mean its things that 3000+ hour survivors use and its been slowly being patched out of the game or made less effective in different places. There's a reason that only 1 map right now has the full see through shack. Its because its not very… balanced at some loops.
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this is a hard one to tell reality and irony apart.
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Exactly. It makes me want to roll my eyes out of the back of my head when people mention comp in balancing discussions. We're talking about like 0.5% of the game, and essentially not at all in public matches. I've been playing for years and if I'm being honest with myself, I'd wager I could count the total number of times I've faced a comp level squad in public matches on my hands and feet. Maybe just my hands.
What makes sense for comp simply shouldn't be considered at all when balancing and adjusting the game at large.
I am very sympathetic to killer issues, as I play both sides evenly and was essentially a killer main for the first ~1500 hours I played, but calling for the elimination of check spots is just absurd. Like I actually laughed when I read the title of this thread. The fact that survs are stronger in comp is irrelevant to the 99% of players.
As you say, balancing around comp (or even just the top 5% of players) would be tantamount to taking the game out behind the barn and shooting it in the back of the head.
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I feel there needs to be some form of skill in chases besides aimlessly moving from loop to loop. Check spots fall into that category for me. It's not impossible to catch them it just takes a bit more than normal.
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Comp players themselves flat out say comp needs to stay out of balancing issues. Hens, who plays comp, said something along the lines of "no true comp player would ever suggest balancing around comp." The only people who seem to want it balanced around comp are the people who don't even play comp. They just find the game difficult and want it easier.
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Jesus H Entity this might be the best suggestion i've ever seen on the forums
This is a really good idea it makes higher level play more balanced and maps more fair while NOT IMPACTING low mmr and mid mmr players at all
"Cough" (Fourm Survivor Mains) "Cough"
I truly hope a dev sees this
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"It also promotes more skill-based gameplay where each loop is a proper 1v1 mindgame between the survivor and the killer, where the better player winds due to how well the killer can mindgame and trick the survivor, vs the survivor able to respond to the killer and make proper choices based on what the killer has done historically."
No, winning 50/50 is not skill.
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OK then maybe the killer should not be able to mind game around loops by hiding his red light as well. That seems unfair, because highly skilled killers exploit this on loops a survivor cannot see over, so they will be caught either way. /s
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Yeah let's remove every aspect of the game you can capitalize on based of your skill and experience. Are you serious?
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There are checkspots for loops even without holes in the walls. I mean, unless you count shack window as a hole in the wall I guess.
Do you want people to close their eyes when standing still or something?
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Im afraid something like this would also have to come with changes to the red stain. It would need to always be pointing in the way the killer is moving instead of the way they are facing. While it is simple the red stain is a lot like check spots. Newer players don't know how to use it or switch up the direction they are facing. Veteran players tend to use it quite well. Without check spots at that level it may lead to a lot more free hits than actual mind games for both sides. For killer it would be a choice to turn, for survivors it would be a guess on what the killer is doing.
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I appreciate that you are trying to find ways to close the gap between high and low level play, but I don't think the devs would do a great job at implementing this. Map tweaks often result in loops getting absolutely butchered. Not to mention how much work it would take to change multiple loops in every map.
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i agree but i do not think the problem is check spots. it is red glow. red glow gives survivor wall-hacks for where the killer is in the loop. they can use red glow to determine where killer is in a loop which allow them to get extra reaction time in check spots.
there is also the fact that a lot of check spots are by product of the loop being too big/too safe and than there is just some loops where survivor can see through walls which is another issue. those type of mechanics gives survivor free wall-hack perks without using them and a person that knows where you are at loops does not allow any mindgames to occur.
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Sounds as a skill issue to me.
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Comp players play in public matches too. And again, explain to me how this hurts the average solo queue survivor who doesn't know these check spots even exist. You have yet to explain anything around the actual point i'm making and instead are strawmanning the idea of comp.
Please, explain to me how my idea is bad and how it will negatively impact average level players.
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Yeah, the comp players who are survivor mains would say that. Because then they get to make their next "watch me make this killer DC lol XDDDDD" compilation video and rake in the views.
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Have you never played a fighting game before?
You knock your opponent down, they now have options, they can block, or they try and counter attack. If you expect their counter attack, you can block their counter attack, and now punish them and knock them down again, resetting the situation, if you don't expect their counter attack, then you likely get knocked down, and the situation is reversed to you.
It creates this back and forth mindgame where, someone does the counter attack 3 times, surely they wouldn't do it a 4th time right? And then they do, and they get a full punish that takes the round back. It creates situations where the game is about conditioning your opponent to do "A", and when they start doing "A", you start punishing them for it.
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I do agree with this, in general i think the red stain should not go through walls or structures.
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You brought up comp 🤣🤣oh whatever this isn’t worth my time
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I mention comp in terms of high skill players, do you think high mmr players don't exist in normal queues? And again, you are attacking comp, i'm asking you to explain why removing check spots would be bad for the game.
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you should play doctor and use his discipline add-on which removes red stains when survivor are tier 3 permanently. you will see that a lot of loops where there is perfect wall blocker, you can do irregular movement, flick movement as killer and the survivor will completely lose where you are in the loop.
he's only killer capable of doing that at loops without compromising his pathing. every killer in theory can mindgame with red glow by moonwalking but moonwalking is very tricky. it is very easy to make mistake and lose time from trying a single mindgame. with doc, you can walk straight as if your playing normal killer and continuously mindgame the survivor.
a lot of survivor tend panic pallet drop if your winning mindgames vs them and will start play super safe. safe pallets don't have any mindgame if the survivor camps the pallet and slides at correct time so as much killer mindgames are cool, they're not very effective outside of stray hit here and there. I do wish they were more part of the game where more loops were like unsafe pallet + 2 cut tall walls +window.
My impression that dev don't put tall loops in the game because it hurts killer like Huntress, Trickster, Deathslinger, Nemesis and they don't want to buff Skeleton key+Blood Amber.
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How can they change check spots without breaking the game?
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Devils advocate, a chsnge like this wouldn't affect casual/average players anyway. It'd target the problematic balance area.
That being said, I don't think checkspots should be removed, though some should get adjusted. Killer shack with broken walls is just broken. You can effectively be permanently safe at those killer shacks. We shouldn't get a guaranteed safety area. They should also fix the red stain going through walls.
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Basically by removing holes in walls (not windows) that let survivors see through them and making the red stain not go through walls in weird places.
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I agree with this, but you should have started the post with that. Currently your post looks wild without last part, ngl.
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Uh, i'm not sure how, i explained how it would be good for the game, and how it would not affect average level survivor play and nobody has been able to demonstrate that other than "killer bad" I have never heard any definition of a "Check spot" other than what i described in the thread, so again i fail to see the problem here.
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Check spot is literally… spot for checking. Place, where you wait for next killer's move to make your own. And before last part and your comment I thought you suggest to remove them.
And holes in the loop are holes in the loop. I don't understand why we need a huge holes on Eyrie's shack, for example. You literally can see killer in any point. And there are a lot of constructions on other realms, where you can see killer's red stain through wall too.0 -
Ahh I misread the last part of what you mean by check spots. Most of the time when I see check spots, it includes the long loops, holes in the wall, and maybe an area where you have time to vault a window by seeing when the killer turns a corner. Basically anywhere a survivor can check and make a decision.
Yeah, I have no problems with holes in the wall being gone but I don't see how this would be more fun for high level survivors. They have put in the effort of learning where and how to use these spots. Removing them will just force them back into a guessing situation. There would be no correct play for survivor but only a correct guess at that point. Against certain killers it may not even feel like that option exist anymore. It may also promote more of just drop the pallet and hold w play styles.
I know you said the survivors could predict based on previous choices but this only works against killers who do the same thing over and over. A high level killer has probably learned not to do this. Then you have to throw in other factors such as survivor noises and how loud injured survivors are. It gives killers more of an edge in predicting where a survivor might be or the direction they might be headed.
On the matter of the red stain going through walls I do think that should be changed. In the current state it shouldn't go through anything. It can make trying to hide it feel useless.
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If they did this, Survivors would have to be lucky and skill would be non-existent.
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To be fair some of the loops now probably feel reversed to someone playing killer. Like Reinami mentioned, shack is a good example. Not only is it long so survivors can see but some also can be seen through. So in these instances it's kind of like the killer is trying to guess with a mind game but the survivors can be patient and either react really early or force the killer to have to react to them.
It kind of balances out between loops that maybe favor killer in this way and loops that favor survivor in this way. I'm not sure what a good middle ground would be.
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