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Something needs to be done about the "Go next" epidemic
It is miserable playing as survivor right now in solo queue, every other game one of my other teammates gives up immediately and just "goes next" as fast as possible. It is insane especially since these games are more than winnable if people just played the damn game. At this point i don't know why these people even launch the game.
Comments
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I haven't played the game in a while but last I played people were just leaving for no discernable reasons. I use to be someone who would try and justify dc'ing, or hook suiciding, against extremely unfun or broken things but it has gotten way past that. It's not even just a problem of getting matched with bad teammates or anything anymore.
I never had a problem when someone let go if their teammates weren't helping progress the game. Not now, it's gotten to where someone can be downed before anyone even has time to find a gen and they will just dip out.
I don't find it fun as killer either. I always try to make the game fun when I play killer but the moment someone leaves, I don't know if it's more fun for me to two hook and let everyone farm or just get the game over with so everyone can move on.
Ihts hard to enjoy playing either side because of it.
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One of the biggest issues with the epidemic is that you can't balance anything with this as a dev. Any data you could collect is all gonna be skewed because of how many thousands of clearly winnable matches were thrown. Killers who have absolutely no place winning those matches would win the. anyway, thus inflating the kill rate, and artificially fueling the argument that killers are too strong and solos are too weak. "I don't EVER escape!" But did you have a team of 4 like you're supposed to, or did someone basically give the killer 3 free hook states in 30 seconds after they got downed once? Having that happen is absolutely game breaking. And you're not gonna fix it by doing a repeat of old Freddy, Spirit, and Skull Merchant where, "If all these people are DCing against this killer, that can only must be super OP, right? 🥴 There's no such thing as rage quitters..." and just nerf the killer. That just makes killers never want to play them anymore. Then when another killer the survivors don't like sees more play, they'll do the same thing, rage quit until nerf, because even their no-effort entitled selves possess pattern recognition.
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We're talking about a game where the slightest Survivor error can doom the entire team (even without "going next"), and even finishing all of the gens doesn't necessarily mean they win. Is it any wonder why people go next?
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The slightest? Absolutely not. You'd have to give a free down or something to even come close to a hard punish. you could waste a pallet or give an easy hit, but it's how fast that second hit is, it's when you get downed that matters. In my experience, 90% of the time the gates are powered, the survivors have won. If the killer wants to go all-out on chance and try to slug everyone in the end, he can do that, but the risk of him losing everything anyway is equally high. I've seen survivors come back from matches they had no place coming back from, because the killer had 1 subpar chase, or because the gens were a little too quick to keep up with.
So I don't really accept survivors' excuses for rage quiting, what they call "going next," considering all this. I've been more understanding of drunks and druggies getting on the game and being a burden to their team in their condition, than people simply saying, "Agh don't like this killah! Rage quit!" That's just infantile.
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ohh yeah, let's make further excuses to justify unsportsmanlike conduct, that will definitely help with the problem!
And is the "slightest error that can doom the entire team" in the room with us rn? Almost every single match gets doomed because one soloQ teammate decides to force their team into an early 3v1, that's not "slightest error", that's hardcore griefing your team
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I don’t experience this in my games like at all, killer or survivor. I rarely see survivors self-destruct on hook for no reason and almost every time they do it’s because they have like 7 hooks at 4 gens. I more commonly see Survivors DC when slugged.
Also, I saw like 5 Killers DC when they couldn’t tunnel someone out while doing the event tome. Does that mean there’s a Killer DC epidemic?
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Solo survivor is not miserable because of give ups. It's miserable because game is favoring killers too much.
Survivors are giving up exactly for this reason. When this game was favoring survivors, killers was dc'ing a lot as well.
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In my data most games where survivors rage quit are unwinnable. Of course this is the problem because no one will agree on what a winnable or unwinnable game is. The rate at which a survivor gives up or goes afk in my games is 13.4%. Roughly 3/4 of those are games I would personally call unwinnable. Most common scenario is killer hard tunneling some guy who rage quits on death hook at like 4 gens left. I rarely see anyone give up just because they were the first person to go down. Even people randomly giving up late in the game is more common than this in my matches.
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That seems to be what people want though; to nerf every killer and perk into the ground and kill switching 90% of the killer roster they think is "unfun" so survivors are insanely strong again.
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so...forcing an extremely early 3v1 is somehow not a problem and not the reason why soloQ sucks when your teammate forces it, but it is a problem when killer forces it?
I really hope you are aware that you have just completely legitimized tunneling.
Survivors are giving up exactly for this reason. When this game was favoring survivors, killers was dc'ing a lot as well.
Killers never gave up nearly as often as survivors because they don't have a mechanic that would let them just go next with 0 punishment for doing it :D
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It's not even about to nerfing killers. It's just general balance.
Maps are nerfed to ground and most of them have trash loops which guaranteed hits. There is only few maps left to having fun loops. And you will notice survivors are usually using map offerings for those maps.
Tunnelling one survivor out and making game 3 v 1 is pretty easy and free. Killer is not getting enough punishment, even if survivor have anti-tunnel perks.
Balancing game around SWFs while giving nothing to solo survivors. Not even reworking problematic perks like Knock Out.
Killer can make couple of mistakes and then they can still make it come back with some snowball and slowdown. But survivor games feels like it's not possible to comeback. Especially it's very hopeless when killer tunnel someone out and make game 3 v 1 at 2 - 3 gens left.
If you have enough DbD knowledge you know what games are winnable and what are not. So even i don't support what they are doing, i understand why they are going to next instead of wasting their time for losed match.
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I understand your issue. I just wish DBD would have no penalty so that way the survivors that are not having fun would just DC instead of dropping on hook screwing their team over. DBD is the only game that has a penalty for Dcing that I play. Kinda weird when they added bots to replace you if you do DC. I do not encourage Dcing or going next but I feel like if there wasnt a penalty there would at least be a bot to help the team. Most times when I get a bot in my matches though the bot just slow vaults pallets over and over again. Bots need to be looked at again. Just my opinion but if the do ever make the DC peanlty go away there would be an increase of DCs so I just dont know how to fix this issue. I am also a solo queue survivor and when they go next we have a 0.1 percent chance of escaping. I dont see why they havent addressed this yet
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That's generally my experience too, most giving up happens in mid to late game when it's clear the game is over. I really only see early game giving up when the killer is hard tunnelling. But even then, giving up is not common in my games. I played 3 hours today and didn't get a single team mate giving up on hook. We had a whole team DC but that was because the killer came in trying to 4-man slug from the get-go and my team just DCd one by one. Which whatever, I had no issue there.
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just remove self unhook
90% of the give uppers will continue to play the game normally if you save them when they are trying to give up
if you just remove the 12% then the impulsive rage to go next cant be acted upon unless they want a penalty
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Maps are nerfed to ground and most of them have trash loops which guaranteed hits. There is only few maps left to having fun loops. And you will notice survivors are usually using map offerings for those maps.
3-4 maps get shrinked and yall start exaggerating it as if half of the maps have been nerfed into the ground? Most maps are literally still obnoxious to play as killer, e.g. Eyrie which is still the most survivor sided map even after it's rework.
Tunnelling one survivor out and making game 3 v 1 is pretty easy and free. Killer is not getting enough punishment, even if survivor have anti-tunnel perks.
you know what is even easier? Going on next on hook when killer first hooks you and then act like that isn't the problem with the game (or eventually accusing killer of tunneling after you/your teammate went next on 1st hook, which i unironically saw happening too)
Balancing game around SWFs while giving nothing to solo survivors. Not even reworking problematic perks like Knock Out.
- Literally so many aspects have been improved for better soloQ QoL, there are still some needed, but things are okayish even in this state.
- soloQ has become extremely unreliable sample to be used for balancing due to soloQ players extremely often having completely different goals, skill levels and mentality in matches. SWFs at least play as a team and you won't have that one teammate that will ragequit out of nowhere. Also, they will play for one mutual objective. Knock Out is problematic for soloQ tho and should be reworked.
Killer can make couple of mistakes and then they can still make it come back with some snowball and slowdown. But survivor games feels like it's not possible to comeback. Especially it's very hopeless when killer tunnel someone out and make game 3 v 1 at 2 - 3 gens left.
against a team that knows how to play the game, it's enough to mess up the first chase and lose yourself a match. Only case when killer can make "couple" of mistakes, snowball and win is when survivors make continuous chains of mistakes.
All in all, survivor mistakes are much more forgiving than killer's.
If you have enough DbD knowledge you know what games are winnable and what are not. So even i don't support what they are doing, i understand why they are going to next instead of wasting their time for losed match.
people who have enough DbD knowledge will never manage to have a teammate completely tunneled out before minimum of 3 gens have been done.
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Blame BHVR for this.
Every small survivor mistake can lead to losing match and with 3v1 you have no chance when there are 3+ gens to do.
And I'm not here to entertain killer, if I don't have any chance to win, what's the point?There are some fun killers to play against, but also there are killers such as Blight/Nurse with full meta build that would also slug you and give you attitude.
I don't want to sweat all game, I want a chill game.
Removing self-unhook would do nothing (it would harm even more things survivors can do and push them more into being just meat puppets to entertain killers), because if someone would want to leave, they would just go straight to the killer.
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What will help with the problem is addressing why people do it, and I just explained one reason why. As others have said, more people give up because the match has reached an unwinnable state. Going next just because they were the first one downed is much less common than people claim on these forums, as also stated by others in this thread.
And is the "slightest error that can doom the entire team" in the room with us rn? Almost every single match gets doomed because one soloQ teammate decides to force their team into an early 3v1, that's not "slightest error", that's hardcore griefing your team
I can't count how many fully played out games we've lost when we should have won because one of us made a slight error. Also much more common than someone giving up.
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Let's add on top of that hatch nerf - hatch used to spawn on finished gens/dead survivors variables.
Right now it's only when 3rd survivor dies after this long animation and also can be denied completely bu slugging 3rd one for 4k, which was encouraged by BHVR.
It's not weird that survivors want to give up when they don't have chance to escape from match and their "last chance" can (and is highly) denied from them.
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The constant slugging and tunneling every single match is unenjoyable. Or when you have like six clowns in a row. And now, people are wanting guaranteed loop hits with this new Freddy build. It makes sense that people are just jumping to the next match.
BTW, creating loop-countering powers is part of the problem.12 -
What will help with the problem is addressing why people do it, and I just explained one reason why. As others have said, more people give up because the match has reached an unwinnable state. Going next just because they were the first one downed is much less common than people claim on these forums, as also stated by others in this thread.
- people are generally burnt out from the game when it's usually the only game they play for prolonged periods of time. I have been taking a break 3-4 times already in order to cure my burnout every time i had it (and it usually happens when i start playing more than 5 matches a day).
- 3v1 at 2-3 gens is not an unwinnable state. Being downed in first minute of the match is not the moment when match becomes unwinnable.
- Out of 20 survivor matches, 8 happen to be survivor giving up on hook early into the match. As killer, there is basically a 1 in 2 matches where one survivor will get downed extremely fast and give up on hook.
I can't count how many fully played out games we've lost when we should have won because one of us made a slight error. Also much more common than someone giving up.
Locking your team into a 3-gen or similar move is not a slight mistake, it's a fatal mistake. Slight mistakes usually get punished by losing a health state/getting downed
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Literally people tell you their issue with current state of the game, a lot of people say same thing - that matches are often unwinnable and killer main on forum says that "no they aren't".
I don't care and your comment won't change my mind, I have almost 2k hours playing dbd mostly as surv so I know if matches are unwinnable or not. You can write whatever you want but you won't change my mind, thx.
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the game isn’t the same as it was 2000 hours of gameplay ago.
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Of course it's not the same - it's worse - because more and more people give up as there is no hope to win some of the matches.
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i don't have to change your opinion to understand that big majority of dbd playerbase from both sides will rather complain about "not being able to win any match" than sit down and try to understand what mistakes they were making in matches where they lost.
Problem starts when those players start talking about balance when their perception of it is heavily distorted due to refusal to improve and learn from your own mistakes.
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Okay, let me rephrase then: Most Survivor errors are way more impactful than you might think, whether it's a misplay in the first chase resulting in a quick down, simply refusing to heal after unhook (possibly for Resilience value or whatever), or something much worse like a 3-gen.
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I think you're both correct, but I believe this is an inherent problem of a Asym game, that I cant really see a way for it not to exist. It is a team of survivors vs a killer, and let's REALLY think about that for a second...
In any team game, you are by definition dependent upon your teammates; that's what makes it a team game. If you are on the worse team, then you should lose, and this is very common (in fact its the status quo) for every team game in existence... the team.that plays the worst, tends to lose...
Now you can have individual players who may be better or worse, but generally speaking the team with the best teamwork should win... so lets explore some team games...
A game like Counter Strike is high on individual skill, where a single great player can clutch rounds for their team and beat 5 players single handed... this means that it's possible, and not even uncommon to see 5 players who have good teamwork lose many rounds to a team with 4 poor players and 1 amazing player... however for the most part strong teamwork can and should keep up.
A game like Team Fortress 2 on the other hand, while still having a lot of individual skill, ultimately it's greater teamwork that wins most of the time. You might be a truly unbelievable Soldier, and a decent Pyro/Scout shutting you down and protecting their Medics and Snipers still have a good shot of beating you.
So what point am I making? Well in an asym like DBD, we aren't pitting teamwork vs. teamwork, we are pitting teamwork vs. a single player. That means the "teamwork" of the killer is always perfect, whereas as a survivor your ability to win is dependent upon the skill of your team. If you as a survivor are not very dependent on your teammates, it means that you are appropriately powerful to take the killer on 1vs1.
Since this game is 4vs1, then this must lead to a scenario where Survivors are overpowered, because if every survivor can effectively 1vs1 the killer consistently and not be in a hopeless game because 1 survivor threw the game hard, the killer is outnumbered and should most of the time lose... as such the balance has to be skewed so that the killer is stronger in the 1vs1, and by proxy it therefore must, by design, be extremely punishing for survivors if they make a mistake.
This isn't an example of favouritism towards killers, this is an inherent quality of an asym... Ultimately Survivors are pitting their ability to work as a team vs. the killers ability to catch them individually quickly and put survivors in difficult to coordinate positions... I don't really see a way you can make it so that survivors aren't dependent on each other, and aren't punished very hard for mistakes, without making it so that the game is heavily survivor sided.
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i agree. that is why the nerf killer mentality to fix rage quit is dangerous. stats are difficult to measure if there is a large amount of rage quit games and you will certainly get inflated kill-rate and win-rates stats.
your describing a lot of my killer end games where i will comeback in the end game. the risk for killer is high but can work sometimes.
the go next mentality for survivor makes solo survivor not as fun to play.
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Yeah, it all makes sense, so there's really nothing that can be done to change the asym nature of the game. There have been countless other discussions about this "epidemic," and I agree with the idea that Survivors should be more incentivized to stick it out even when the match is hopeless. They should be rewarded more for participation rather than just escaping.
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I do think it's funny that Killer has flipped with Survivor.
Survivor used to be the easy mode, but now it's Killer.
Killer used to be the high pressure no mistakes mode, now it's Survivor.
Curious
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This is an incredible analysis of the situation that everyone needs to read.
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From all the upvotes Cryptic has gotten, it's already normalized and engraved in their brains. Dead by Daylight will never recover and it will stagnate.
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This is the most balanced dbd has been from my survivor pov. Killer has been nerfed plenty of times too.
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It's also the reason why killer mains constantly say "Take out the weak link first. Always.". This is the truth.
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Eh.
2019-early 2022 was probably the most balanced the game has been.
It's been pretty heavy towards Killer since 6.1
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Weird how the uptick in giving up started shortly after they tilted the balance heavily toward killers. Quite the completely unrelated correlation.
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I admit, I miss old dead hard but it's good they changed it after patch 6.1 it was unhealthy for the game for way too long.
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I do wish BHVR would reduce / remove the first stage unhook. If they truly think that players would quit DbD without the ability to leave, let players DC on hook with no penalty, but I think just removing the ability to self unhook in the first 3 minutes would solve a lot of games.
That said, I think there are a number of issues that contribute to the problem.
1: Importance of the early game - a quick down from the killer basically seals the game. A single player who went AFK and got downed is such a huge swing. Now the early game is also very important for the killer, but the killer probably gains something from the early game if they don't get a quick down (such as elimination of pallets).
2: Slugging epidemic - as a survivor there have definitely been games I regretted getting saved, only to later be slugged while the killer search the map for the 4k. While I try to stick games out as much as possible, I definitely understand the feeling of survivors who want to get out before the game becomes impossible to move forward and risk being slugged while the killer searches the map.
3: 1v1 nature - BHVR sometimes encourages, as do many players, the idea that each survivor is playing just for themselves. So even if the game is still winnable for the other survivors, it might not be winnable for the person who is on hook. If a person has internalized BHVR's message that the only thing which matter is whether they escape or not, the hook suicide is much more logical.
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Thats absolutly not true. Yes, in some edge cases a misstake can ruin the game. But it is rare, and in cases like that it is already on thin ice.
Killers can loose a game much more easier in small mistakes. Survivors have to do huge, and not only one mistake to loose.
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I do not want to be direspectful, but after your "maps are nerfed" sentence I have to think that you are not an experienced player, and you not played too much on killer side, especially not with lower tier killers.
Those are not nerf, those are rebalance, because they had to. They were extremly large, with OP loops (infinites sometimes). Ther are not trash "loops" with guaranteed hits. At all. If you loop it well the hits are never guaranteed.
If the killer tunneled out (or not tunneled) at 2-3 gens left ONE person, than it is still way over winnable. That is the point, when a killer maybe can grip the match and turn it somehow, but still not guaranteed.
If you think that at 2-3 gens in 3v1 is not winnable, then I am sorry to say but your DbD knowledge is what not good enough.
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some edge cases
Edge case: getting downed before 1st gen is done, totally edge case and so rare!
You are downed before 1st gen is done, hooked on PainRes (said gen instantly lost some of the progress), all survivors auras are revealed using BBQ, then killer goes immediately to gen that was repaired (because survivors are nearby) and said gen - that is also regressing - is blocked by Grim Embrace.
On Blight it's already game over, especially when you are SoloQ, because what? You are on hook, one survivor is chased, probably lost health state and soon will also be downed, one of the survivor MUST unhook (and heal) you and just one survivor can do gens.
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Survivor main:
- this game is more and more miserable to play as survivor
Killer main who don't play survivor at all:
- No bestie, it's def not, those edge map pallets are """rebalance"""", you can easily loop Nurse or Blight there, also you can totally win 3v1 with 3 gens left, I don't know what you're talking about, how are this games miserable <333
> Ther are not trash "loops" with guaranteed hits. At all. If you loop it well the hits are never guaranteed.
Maybe you want to add something more? 🤣
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also eh
I think it more has to do with how the mindset has shifted towards competitiveness.
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This is exactly what killers wanted and BHVR bent over backwards to give what they wanted. It is only common practical sense nobody wants to play survivor when the game is so unbalanced against them.
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Not really, people go next in completely salvageable situations often. I'd say about 80% of the games I see someone go next could've been won easily if it wasn't made into an early 3v1.
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I miss it for the funny but it was unbalanced.
I think it was too much all at once. The maps being shrunk and tile generation being changed, less distance on hit, faster breaking, stronger Killers on average with better map pretense etc etc
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I am not your bestie. And even if I wouldn't play survivor enough I would know as killer which loop is good or what is not a loop.
And you see? This is the problem. That on the picture is not a loop. It is a filler basicly, so it is not a deadzone there. Near to that pallet there are loops. Also, the hit is not guaranteed, since there is that pallet. If the survivor plays well, they can stun the killer, or just use to get some distance. But definitly able to waste a few more seconds of the killer, which are counts.
What you basicly say that every single tile should be there with a safe or godpallet, and you should be able to loop the killer anywhere. Yeah, that would be a grate game for sure…
I literally cannot think any map which are killer sided. Sure, there are maps which not as good as a survivor, but that is the point. You have to use your brain and resources (pallets and windows) to win chases (in the future too, not only that one).
And yes. You can easily win a game in 3v1 with 3, especially 2 gens left. You 3genned yourself? Yeah then maybe not. But it is not a small mistake. But a game winnable even in 2v1 with 1 gen left. Yes, it is not easy. Yes, it is harder agains some killers. But declaring that 3v1 with 2 gens left is unwinnable clearly shows that you have to get better, and it is not the map's fault or the "OPness" of the killers
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That wont work and will make it worse. They either will afk still or do malicious things like sandbagging, blowing up your gens, throw all the pallets, going in and out of lockers by you.
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Getting downed before the 1st gen is not a misstake, since there is no deadzone yet on the map. But even if we call it misstake it is far from changing the game with it.
What you described is an edgecase. Not every single game is a Blight with BBQ with PainRes and Grim.
Also what you described is the normal flow of the game. When somebody is hooked somebody have to go to save. I really not see how it is a huge deal, and how it makes the game unwinnable if you not just want an easy escape.
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Great, in one cases they won't ruin another match and in others I will be glad to fill ticket on site to give them a weekend from DBD. Literally win-win for everyone.
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Are you joking? That loop is 100% a hit no matter what. "I cannot think any map which are killer sided". Lol okay
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