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Remove tunnelling from the game
It is not fun for anyone to get repeatedly chased off the hook and removed from the game. Make it so killers can't down the person who was last hooked. It's so boring just getting tunneled every game and not being able to even play.
Comments
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since we have StB in the game as the final step into countering tunneling (absolutely brutal perk with all the other anti-tunneling perks in existence) and yall still complain about tunneling existing, we can just make a conclusion that yall don't wanna learn how to not counter tunneling, but actually play the game. Yall just want autopilot features to deal with your opponent using specific strategies because you just don't wanna be bothered by actually learning specific aspects of the game and getting better to make experience for both yourself and your team better.
I knew this would happen some time after StB introduction, even with the fact you were acting like "finally some strong stuff for anti-tunnel" (which it truly is) but then you realized it actually has skill floor so you just won't get any use out of it
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certainly a take of all time
also troll post?
Your PFP is literally the king of tunnelling
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Yours is the queen of slugging. xD
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And yours is the queen of special mori. :)
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Better than slugging or tunneling lol. At least all they have to do is grab a tape lol.
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no.
but also I don't think the game's best anti-tunnel tools should be locked behind perks. tunneling (and to a lesser extent these days camping) is clearly a friction point that pretty much everyone hates but can't come up with a suitable solution to. "higher tier" players know that a killer that hard tunnels will lose if people just do gens but holy ######### that's boring game design.
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You remove tunneling then people shift to slugging. You then remove slugging then you only get nurses, blights or billies or no killers at all.
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Maybe it's because having these options as perks is like a absoloutley awful game design.
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awful game design that is pushed thanks to bringing many problems related to hooking/spreading hooks that just made those not that worth playing anymore unless you are willingly handicapping yourself.
BHVR has done basically nothing to fix the core issue around tunneling (and slugging) by making hook aspect of the game so irrelevant for killer, but instead they just kept bringing constant bandaids.
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Ok you hate tunnneling, but there is hard tunneling to get a sacrifice ASAP (at 3 hook stages) and tunneling a survivor when there is one gen left when the killer needs to confirm a kill before the end game to maximize their chance to win.
Basically your suggestion also punish killers that played chill/struggled during the early game and just try to get a bit of results later in the trial.
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The vast majority of tunnels happen because people are stupid enough to go for the unhook when the killer is still nearby.
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Then we should have a list to ban 5 killers too so you all start to play with normal killers and actually get better with A/B/C tier killer
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I agree with you dear OP, tunneling should not exist, make our hooks teleport like from 2v8
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Dear there is an mmr system, even if you lose a match without tunneling next match will easy survs and you can win, while as a solo survivor you barely escape literally it's 1 out 10 match
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if you want to kill the game this would be a perfect way to do so
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Game won't die there is no such games like dbd, so don't waste your time to proving it, ban list is a healthy addition to dbd or killer repeat prevention
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a lobby of survivors having 5-20 killers banned on top of a killer repeat prevention system will make queues so high that people will stop playing.
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I'm just gonna address both at once, rather than making two posts.
- A 4 man lobby all with unique picks would ban out over half the roster. Words cannot describe the damage this would do to the game's queue times which already struggle during events like 2v8.
- We know the escape rates hover ~40% both for SoloQ and SWF. So 4/10 matches.
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No it's barelty 10-15% escape rate, I play at mid-high mmr and all I face sweaty killers who plays dirty
While as a killer I lose 1 match to a good survs and then 2 after that so it's pretty balanced
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Dear, you are known on his forum for your very pessimistic posts about the state of solo Q.
Solo Q survivors need love, I made a post about buffing them, but we have strong tools against tunneling already :
- Avoid running into dead zones (Windows of Opportunity).
- Being decent in chase (personal skills/resilience/exhaustion perks).
- Equip anti-tunnel perks (DS, OTR, Dead Hard).
10% escape rate claim is clearly hyperbolic.
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What killed VHS were the obnoxious queue times on top of monsters not being any fun. Banning all good killers from ever getting picked will result in long queue ties because many people don't enjoy playing weaker killers. Rising queue times will drive people off the game. Let's not recreate the fate of VHS. Even if dbd is unique it's not unkillable. We've been bleeding player numbers during terrible metas, it's totally possible to kill this game.
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Based on the official stats it's around 60%. It definitely leans towards the killer side, but 60% is closer to 2 kills than 3 kills. Soloq is definitely different you lack information and often the mates you get do whatever they want but that's a soloq issue. SWF are still in a good spot. If I play with a strong squad I escape the majority of my games
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Hard tunneling in the early game is a serious flaw in the game design. The idea that one player can force another player to not be able to participate in the game except to be chased and eliminated, unable to enjoy the game the way they should expect to, is ridiculous.
And the reasoning that people give for it is shocking too. "If I don't do this thing that makes you unable to play the game, I might not win!" That feels like someone seeing a line of people at a store and saying "If I don't cut into the front of the line, I might not get the outcome I want." It just totally disregards the experience of the other people sharing the activity.
I can't even imagine a person doing something like that with a group of friends. If I sat at a table going "You're getting out of this game immediately and everyone else practically won't be able to win!" I'd expect people to not want to play games with me anymore. But for some reason, there are people who play DBD who think that kind of behavior is okay.
Op has the right mindset surrounding games; everyone playing should have a reasonable chance to enjoy the game. However, we also can't make it so the most recent person off hook can't be downed at all. Bully squads would have a giant celebration. And there are situations where you can reasonably expect to get chased off hook. If all gens have been done, the killer should be monitoring a hook or the gates (or in some cases mindgaming those activities to find survivors). But in any case, hard tunneling in the early game is a massive problem. Why even play the game as a survivor if it's going to happen?
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Isn't that a problem though that SWFs are so different than solo queue? I sometimes play in SWFs, but never with comms, and I think most survivors are solo queue, with duos being the most common form of SWF. I forget, do we have access to the stats on SWF vs solo queue escape rates adjusted for MMR?
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But I thought people like agency with what builds they want to play with? How come we can't ban perks for killers to use?
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Your MMR is a hidden value, you have no way of knowing what it is and even if you did have the number you'd have to know how the playerbase is distributed amongst those MMR values to know where you were.
Additionally, we've been shown that escape rates for survivors hover 40%. Hell- from my own data collection, my SoloQ escape rates are ~42%. Yours may be 10-15% - I trust that you have no reason to lie about that, but this fact makes you an incredibly huge outlier, and I'd be very interested to see how you played to ascertain why it is that astronomically low.
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I think we also don't know the shape of the distribution of escapes/sacrifices per player. The standard deviation probably matters somewhat.
You're also probably right that 10-15% is at the lower end of the distribution though. If someone got a 5% escape rate, they'd probably quit playing survivor.
But also, MMR should correct this over time, shifting such an escape ratio to face opponents that lead to a higher escape rate. Maybe it's just a temporary streak and MMR will shift at some point to fix the escape rate?
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This is exactly what has bothered me in this game for so long. It's a GROUP activity yet some people ignore that in favor of their own fun. "Your experience doesn't matter, it's more important that I do what I want." I don't understand these people. Like you said, I can't imagine playing with friends like that or even having that attitude to strangers.
Half the time I let everyone go or mess around just because it's more fun that way to me. And even if I'm playing to win as killer for adepts etc, I've never needed to tunnel just to win. Same with people going out of their way to slug or camp hooks/hexes. And there's nothing implemented to really stop them. Hexes don't turn off or move etc if a killer camps them (same with torment gen camp). Even with the anti-camp hook, the killer can chase them down and put them right back on the hook with no form of penalty.
At this point the devs need to do a lot of work shopping and effort to find a good solution but, people should be able to enjoy the game how it's meant to be played instead of dealing with the growing number of players with terrible selfish attitudes.2 -
All the killers on copium on this thread justifying tunneling, when chaos shuffle comes out and killers still tunnel
BuT UsE PeRkS1 -
The killer is not there to make sure you have fun and he shouldn't be expected to.
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And if the Killer is not leaving the proximity of the hook…
They can sit far enough to not proc the anti-camp, but close enough to where they can intercept and unhook and/or tunnel the Survivor who gets unhooked.
You unhook/trade, they tunnel (and potentially get an extra down on the unhooker and slug them for pressure), you dont unhook, they die on hook and that person just loses, and if your team doesnt have the perks to handle this situation (or are in an event queue that restricts perk options), they just lose without any recourse.
Keep in mind that perks that counter this, such as Decisive Strike, Reassurance, Camaraderie, etc. are locked behind paywalls since they are licensed perks, so not everyone has access to them either. To put it bluntly, I think you are oversimplifying an issue.
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You remove tunneling from the game and Survivors will only see Nurse, Blight and Hillbilly every single match
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People have been saying stuff like this for years and we still have good Killer variety so I beg to differ.
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Yes because tunneling exists. I'm saying if there were no possible way to go after the same survivor twice ( like he couldn't get downed after an unhook or something) after an unhook then the killer players would only use 5-8 same killers every single game. i beg to differ where you say there is good killer variety, my matches which is between 2AM to 6AM in the EU, i only see the same 5-8 killers every single match.
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I think part of what makes playing survivor fun, is that you are almost never safe from the killer. If tunneling was completely removed, it would result in less interesting gameplay. I think that tunneling a weak link out at four or five gens is problematic in most matches. So that should be looked at. But tunneling should never be removed completely.
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Yeah, how would it be possible to stop it? Some sort of base kit Off the Record or improved Borrowed Time? If so, then you just make SWF even more powerful because we know full well that unhooked survivors would abuse their immunity and take as many hits as possible before getting away even when they aren't being tunnelled.
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You can't get rid of tunneling, and I know that sounds stupid, but hear me out, cause this is important.
The threat of tunneling must exist for the game to have any engagenent. Think about it, if tunneling is impossible, then survivors can basically unhook for free without a single thought given to where the killer is or what the state of the game is when they do it. Knowing when to unhook is an extremely important skill and yes, you can learn this skill in SoloQ by using the HUD properly, it's not SWF only.
There is one basekit mechanic that noone talks about to counter tunneling that all survivors have... YOU DON'T UNHOOK!
The hook is the safest plave a survivor can be. If a killer hard tunnels they are gifting at least 2 survivors basically 120+s of uninterrupted gen time (from the hook timer) if the survivors use it, plus whatever loop time the survivor can manage (extended by OTR, DS, DH, etc, etc). The 1 saving survivor also gets a decent chunk of gen time if the survivors play it smart. Recognising a killer trying to hover in range of hook to tunnel this is the most important skill SoloQ can have. Your hooks stages/hook timers are resources that you should be exploiting as much as possible.
I am middle-aged now, my fingers are slow and my reactions and aim aren't very good (damn you flashlights)... but the one thing I've always been exceptional at was reading the game. A friend of mine while playing League of Legends back in the day once said "dude... I'm not gonna lie, you have the mechanics of a bronze player... but you have the brain of a challenger". I make this point because if I can play this game to a decent degree without good mechnical skill, without meta perks and handle tunneling fine, just by virtue of being sensible, I'm sure other players can too.
The elephant in the room for DBD and the reason why SoloQ and tunneling is so frustrating is because the way it tends to play out is you've managed to take the killer away from some key gens, got 1 to pop, not used up too many resources, and your teams pressure is good, you've done your part... but if your teammates then unhook you quickly and feed you to the killer (a decision entirely out of your control), its all for nothing. It's like you're playing a game of chess, outplayed your opponent and won 2 pawns... only to hand it off to your teammate who then promptly blunders the Queen.
We say it all the time that a SWF in comms is very hard to beat... and why is that? It's because they operate with the same goals in mind... and if a killer tunnels, a SWF can effectively adapt to it. SoloQ can't adapt as readily, and so it requires a more pessimistic mindset where you have to assume a killer will tunnel and make it as difficult to do it as possible rightbfrom the get go... but so many players just try to unhook the first chance they get without really appreciating what is going on, nor how dangerous that is... and if it's a survivor mistake to unhook, then the punishment is tunneling.
So the point is, you can't remove tunneling, cause it's an important tactical part of the game. Your job as a survivor is to make it as punishing to do it as you possibly can. If you make it easy to tunnel, the killer will tunnel. That's just a logical fact, and aomethimg all survivors should be mindful of.
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I always think the same thing about proxy camping. The unhook and the healing process do need to feel tense.
The question is how much to punish those behaviors to ensure the targeted player isn't feeling like it was pointless to play the match. I mean, if I do dumb things and get taken out, that's on me. But if I'm tunneled out from the outset, I feel like the match isn't worth playing.
Personally, the only time I'll pressure the hook is late-game, or if someone unhooks right as I'm leaving. And as a disclaimer, in the latter case, I chase the unhooker. But we've all seen (presumably plenty of) cases where the killer runs straight back to hook and immediately chases the unhooked person, waits out the borrowed time, and just tunnels them out while maintaining whatever pressure they can on nearby gens until the unhook.
Maybe basekit protections for the unhooked person should be strengthened if two or fewer gens are done?
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The only way to remove "tunneling" from the game is to share hook states like respawn tickets, you can't be uncatchable just because it hurts your feelings.
As long as gens can be completed in less than 5 minutes (and they can), you'll never be in the right if you choose to get weird about the killer targeting one person.
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