It's time to stop slugging for good BHVR.

And replacing them with? You can't just blanket nerf and call it a day.

Give them something entirely new is my point. You can assign them to whatever you want

My point isn't to nerf them. My point is that if you implement basekit unbreakable, the perks that allow you to pick yourself up faster shouldn't be doing it anymore. Maybe unbreakable can allow you to be mroe silent while in the dying state or maybe it just should get something completely different, essentially a completely new perk. It's not about what the perks should do, it's about these perks becoming too strong with basekit unbreakable

Run unbreakable and/or WGLF if you have issue with slugging…

Oh I see. I kinda like the idea of Unbreakable doing something with maybe the Broken effect instead, since I really like risky perks - like you become "Breakable" to gain the benefit of being "unbreakable" later, or maybe you pick yourself up once and become Broken but for the duration leave no scratch marks, grunts of Pain, or any blood drops until Broken wears off (once a round of course) similar to Off the Record sort of without the endurance. Or maybe, we can just scrap basekit Unbreakable and make Unbreakable have unlimited pickups, but they cause you to be Broken each time for so many seconds or it takes longer to pick up every time.

As per the faster pickup perks, maybe if Unbreakable is basekitted or made stronger, they can do something else on pickup - like when you are picked up it heals the other person a bit, or when you get up/are picked up it shows auras on something, or when you get up/are picked up it gives you a slight Haste for so many seconds, IDK. We already have perks for this though.

Let's say we did add basekit Unbreakable, unlimited basekit Unbreakable. I don't think that is the solution but if they went that route, then a lot of changes would need to be made. Here's how I'd make it fair:

• You cannot use the pickup until you have been on the ground for 30 seconds, so the Killer gets to have some pressure. If after 30 seconds you have neither been healed nor hooked, you can use the basekit Unbreakable and get back up as an Injured Survivor. You recover at the same rate as a normal Survivor would (that is, it's not the sped-up version Unbreakable currently gives you), you can just choose to get up at the end once you're done instead of waiting to be healed. You do not receive Endurance or Haste if you do this, and using a self-pickup perk or item does not make it go faster or stack with this timer in any way. In addition, every time you use it, it takes 5 seconds longer to charge, so as to reduce the ability to just force the Killer to down you in a corner and leave or to make them play against shenanigans in "can't hook me" spots on maps.
• The self-pickup has a cooldown of 30 seconds. If you go down again, you do not instantly get to use the Unbreakable again, as this would create lose-lose scenarios that aren't fun. It needs to recharge before you can use it, just like a perk would. This means the Killer still has some pressure if they have to down someone and chase another Survivor or kick a gen, for example.
• As recompense for the Killer due to this, for every hook they get, the Survivors take 2 seconds longer to repair, heal, bless/cleanse totems, unlock chests, or recover with Basekit Unbreakable. And yes perks can stack with this. If the Killer purposefully spreads hooks, then this goes up to 3 seconds longer per hook. This means if the Killer always chooses to play nice, then hooking is incentivized a bit more than slugging is and nobody has to feel cheated out of their time with gens. I feel also that even though it means Killers can get up to a -30% or more debuff on gen speed over time, they have to work for it, plus I really think Survivors will be more than able to handle it with how many tools they have at their disposal to counter this. It will also help encourage Survivor engagement by making them consider resource management in a different way, or choose different playstyles by involving items and item-based builds, which may even reduce the "genrush effect" at the start of rounds since they may not just dump their toolbox on the first gen they see if they know they might need it later. It WOULD mean we have to adjust some perks, though. At the least, it will be much more interesting than the current meta!
• There is an Anti-slug Timer: If the Killer is within 16 m of you and is not chasing anyone, the timer goes up. It goes up faster the closer the Killer is to you. Other Survivors in the area halt the timer, as does someone breaking a hook in any way (sacrifices included), the Killer being stunned or blinded, or the Killer being forced to drop a Survivor (that they do not initiate). When the timer has filled, if the Killer is still in range of you, then you can pick yourself up and you get Endurance and a 5% Haste for 10 seconds. Then you become Exhausted for 10 seconds. This way, you have a chance to escape and it punishes Killers that decide to grief by humping Dying Survs.
• If at any point everyone still alive in the round is Downed and a) 0-1 gens are complete OR b) there are usable hooks within about 8 m of the Killer, an antigriefing timer begins. The Killer then has 60 seconds to begin hooking once this happens. If they hook anyone in that time frame, the timer pauses for everyone and the others get up as per the normal basekit Unbreakable (but with no extra benefits since the Killer is already wasting time hooking). However if the Killer still refuses to hook anyone after 60 seconds have elapsed, everyone instantly gets up at full health and has 100% Haste with 30 seconds of Endurance. Should the Killer decide to stand on top of ANYONE for longer than about 10 seconds while doing this, then after that 10 seconds everyone gets up and the same Survivor buffs apply. This way the most toxic kind of slugging is punished but people who just trip and fall into a 4 man slug because of Survivor altruism, Killers who have a playstyle that is very good with slugging (like Twins), and Killers that are punishing Sabo plays aren't punished for playing the game normally.
• Yes, Basekit Unbreakable works in the endgame, but only once - if the Gates are not yet open you have one more chance to use this if you are Downed. If you have already used it before that whistle sounds, then you don't get another shot. If you get downed in the Gate, too bad. If you get downed off a hook, too bad. If you get downed after healing, sorry Charlie, it's Endgame and everything goes in Endgame.
• If it's endgame collapse and everyone alive in the Round is Downed and can't get up, no doors are opened, and the Hatch is closed, the game is considered a Survivor Loss and Endgame collapse ends early with all Survivors being instantly Sacrificed. This same animation also happens if it's Endgame Collapse and there's only one person alive, they are downed in endgame with no possible escape routes, and the Killer does not either initiate a Mori or hook that Survivor for 10 seconds. There's no reason to force a bleedout in the endgame and there is no reason to make people wait until the endgame timer is done if everyone is on the ground just so the Killer can flex their e-peen, since at that point the Killer has already won. This way, only people who force slug in the endgame are punished this way.
• Slugging for a 4k is not affected by this mechanic as it's annoying but not an example of the kind of slugging this system is meant to halt. I will note that you can still use the Basekit Unbreakable should the Killer attempt this, however.

That means this mechanic only activates IF the Killer is truly doing toxic Slugging in any way, they ACTUALLY leave you to bleed out, or they are humping you on the ground. You can't abuse it to run the timer out. You can't force the old never hook me corner shenanigans, and you can't benefit from slugging this way anymore.

I will assume for the sake of argument, you mean that any perk that benefits a Survivor being Downed and then gives them a way to get back up themselves needs changed if we basekit Unbreakable, just so those perks cannot be abused. Let's say we basekit an unlimited Unbreakable. If so then we'd change these:

• Tenacity: Has a time limit of 30 seconds of crawling, you cannot permanently crawl away forever. This recharges after you are fully healed or become unhooked by any means. Deactivates when healthy or after picking yourself up, or once the 30 second timer of crawling has elapsed.
• Adrenaline: If it heals you from the Dying state, you become Broken for the rest of the round until you escape. If you pick yourself up in any way before Adrenaline activates, or if you go down before Adrenaline can activate, you do not get the self-pickup pr haste boost, but still get the Unbreakable if you have it - and it does still heal you one Health state. It pains me to nerf this perk more as I genuinely think it's OK now, but if you have basekit infinite Unbreakable you genuinely don't need the pickup on this anymore.
• Unbreakable: No longer grants a single free pickup. Instead, this perk now speeds up recovery time as normal, and makes the Broken status effect go away 25/50/100% quicker for every case of being Broken similar to Vigil (that is you are literally "unBROKEN-able" :) ). While you are Broken, you see the auras of chests, the hatch, any boon or hex totems, and the exit gate switches for as long as you are Broken. In addition the first time you become Broken (and ONLY the first time), you gain a single Endurance hit. So if you start with No Mither, yes, you start with two hits and aren't just another easy target - but only for the first time the Killer hits you that round. This perk's Endurance effect cannot stack with other Endurance effects, because Endurance does not stack that way, and as per normal if you do anything useful you lose the Endurance hit.
• Boon - Exponential: No longer allows self pickups from the Dying state nor increases recovery time in the Dying State, but still does everything else it says it does. This is because you genuinely do not need that effect anymore and you can just get the fast recover effect from Boon: CoH anyway.
• Decisive Strike: Still only usable once per round, still 4 seconds. However, if you ever pick yourself up with this perk active, the Perk deactivates permanently as you've basically gotten the same value - the Killer left you alone and did not hook you, or was punished for tunnelling. This is to avoid lose-lose scenarios. This also means it gives a Killer some warning you might have it if they know how the basekit Unbreakable works, since just sitting there bating pickup is a giveaway. Sorry, but you can have either the pickup or the DS, not both.
• Distortion: You do not lose tokens from this perk while you are downed, or directly after picking yourself up (this is to avoid people trying to crawl into a corner to bleed out and hide at the end of the game, as well as to avoid hiding from the Killer that you picked yourself up should they have aura reading tools). One other change, this perk now deactivates permanently in endgame and also will deactivate if you do not do anything to help the team for longer than 30 seconds. This should help prevent the situation of anyone using it to hide and make their teammates struggle because the Killer has to tunnel the only person they can find, as well as prevent those stalemate endgame scenarios between one Killer and two Survivors before the gates are powered where nobody can do anything because the Killer can't find them and Survs won't do gens. I hate to nerf this perk even more, but.. I don't think anyone will be upset if ratting Survs are further punished.
• For the People: If you are picked up with this perk and go down again in the next 30 seconds, then pick yourself up again, you become Broken the next time you get up for 30 seconds. This goes for anything that is an instant pickup from the Dying State. You shouldn't need perks like these as much if you can just get up by yourself. That way SWFs can't abuse multi pickups in a comp corner.
• Buckle Up: If you have already picked yourself up and you go down again, then someone picks you up with this perk, you do not gain the benefits of the perk. You shouldn't need more benefits if you already get benefits from getting up when someone is being a toxic jerk.
• No Mither: This perk does not need changing, but I will give it one more effect - you are Broken permanently, so since this is enough of a debuff you now permanently have a single hit of endurance that regenerates every time you are unhooked or unhook yourself. It does not stack with any other Endurance and you lose it if you do conspicuous actions as normal. This IS the challenge perk after all, I think that's enough of a challenge - now it works a bit like Soul Hearts do in Binding of Isaac as a temp hit! Oh, and one more change - to make this fair to some Killers, One Hit moves will now ignore Endurance and becoming Exposed also removes Endurance. This way Killers like Myers, Ghostface, Oni, Bubba, and Slinger running certain addons are not completely screwed over by someone who has an extra hit that they are not trying to tunnel. It also means bodyblocking might not work against these Killers as well anymore, making them more dangerous. Endurance should be an antitunnel tool or Survivor body blocking tool in niche scenarios ONLY, not a lucky extra hitpoint. These changes make No Mither not only more challenging while also fairer, but make Endurance as a whole more tactical and interesting to use with an actual counter besides just "ignore that Survivor until it wears off".
• Plot Twist: You may not use this perk to heal yourself if you just got up from the basekit Unbreakable, and as before, you must be injured and not Dying in order to activate this perk to start with. You can't use it to Unbreakable, then heal really fast and get up, that is, or to have multiple failsafes to being downed.
• Soul Guard: Probably needs no changes.

Then the following items need changes:

- Styptic: You don't get to heal a health stage later with this if you use your Unbreakable and then someone heals you with this.
- Syringe: You do not get the speed boost if you used Unbreakable to pick yourself up from Dying and then are healed with this.
- Refined Serum: Much like the Syringe above - if someone gives you this, you don't get the speed boost if you just healed by picking yourself up with Unbreakable.

And in addition I would add to combat Sabo-wiggle type plays that may abuse this, change these:

- Boil Over: If you go down after wiggling free within 30 seconds of being freed, you don't then get the basekit Unbreakable unless the Killer is actually standing over you and proccing the antigrief. Sorry.
- Saboteur (and sabotaging in general): Breaking hooks near a carried Survivor deactivates that Survivor's basekit Unbreakable if that Survivor is put back down or dropped due to a stun near that same hook until the hook comes back, that Survivor is healed from Dying, the Killer and all Survivors are 16 m away for 10 seconds, or the Killer can hook the Survivor. Breaking a hook near a Survivor in the Dying state does the same thing, but also pauses the anti-slugging and antigriefing timers until the Killer is able to hook or nobody is near the broken hook. This is to prevent sabo shenanigans making it so Killers can never hook in a given area, especially if many people have sabotage builds and the Killer is an M1 or low mobility. I'm sure a fix for highly mobile M2s that might abuse this could be found.
- Breakdown: Broken hooks prevent the slugging counter from activating if someone is downed near one, as per above.
- Breakout: If the Survivor is dropped because of Breakout, that Survivor cannot use the basekit Unbreakable for one minute if they are downed again within 30 seconds. No rewarding Survivors for mistakes like not thinking of how to plan an escape route if you know your friend has this perk.
- Deliverance: If the Survivor uses Deliverance to get off the hook, or any other free unhook perk like Wicked, and they are downed again within 30 seconds of that perk doing its job, they must wait one minute before Unbreakable can be used after they are downed again. No rewarding Survivors for bad plays like self-unhooking in front of the Killer.
- Flip-Flop: The same as with Breakout.
- Power Struggle: Also the same as with Breakout.

1. That is not true in the slightest, if a Survivor goes down in a corner, if the nearest hook is occupied or sabotaged, you usually cannot hook them.
2. Dropping a Survivor is a good enough counter for sabotaging currently, because the Survivor on the ground remains a pressure point. Unless the Survivor wastes a perkslot, at least one other Survivor will need to stop whatever they are doing and go out of position to pick them up. With basekit unbreakable that won't be a thing anymore. Your story about sabotaging hooks only shows that you do not know how to pick what hook to sabotage and when to do it. You also need to realise that if unbrekable was basekit, Survivor would play harder to deny the hooks, because the reward would be greater and the risk would be lesser.
3. Again, that is because currently Survivors get punished for failing. If the killer fakes the pick up they can often land an easy hit on you, but if you could just pick yourself up, injured Survivors could mindlessly come for saves and if you chase and down them, oh look at that the Survivor in the pallet stood up by themself and had a flashbang so now you need to down them again, whoops they went down but another Survivor with a flashbang came running so you down them but now the original pallet saver is back up and so on and so on.

I also remember the nightmare PTB where they tested a new gameplay mechanic where the game automatically ended if all four players were slugged at the same time. I recommend looking up footage if you weren't there to experience that in real time.

You've put a lot of time and thought into this response. I really appreciate the unique perspective you bring to your ideas, but you also have to put yourself in the developer's shoes. If you were a community manager and you were trying to relay audience feedback to an engineer that has no otherwise exposure to the community or what they care about—how would you translate your ideas to them? Your ideas need more alignment with the tools we have available to us to build from. The best way to get your voice heard in the community is to speak the same language as the developers that build the game. One thing that comes to mind is the Conspicuous Action system we have in place. I would take your ideas and analyze them from that perspective. How would Conspicuous Actions impact the system you proposed, and are the times in alignment with other perks already in the game? The more natural the solution you present is, the easier it is to understand and implement solutions for it.

Boil Over: If you go down after wiggling free within 30 seconds of being freed, you don't then get the basekit Unbreakable…

To rewrite your suggestion here:

• If a survivor were to get value from the perk and wiggle free, this will naturally frustrate the killer because you denied a hook stage after they won the chase against you. Additionally, that survivor is injured and their location is known to the killer. It is highly unlikely to assume the killer would abandon chase and begin a chase with someone else with the information presented.
• Punishing players in any way from getting value from a perk they brought into a trial does not sound like a good solution.

… unless the Killer is actually standing over you and proccing the antigrief. Sorry.

• This is an interesting idea—expanding the Anti-Camp meter to survivors that are prone on the ground.
• This would prevent killers from humping survivors on the ground because they can keep getting up. That is a solution.
• I think this is a really good idea and I think you should explore the concept more and post it in Feedback and Suggestions.

Tenacity: Has a time limit of 30 seconds of crawling

Ever play a weaker killer against a team that knows what they're doing? If you try to hook ASAP after every down, you won't stop the gen completion.

If you sap knockdowns, you'd have to pump up a lot of the weaker killers at the same time, which is a ton of work that detracts from chapter creation and the producers ARE NOT gonna go for that.

So maybe you should think about packing up and forgetting about all these low-vibe, sore-loser style terms like "slugging, camping and tunneling" and just figure out how to deal with it using the tools at your disposal instead of demanding that the game be fractured and a giant chunk of the killer roster be rendered more or less useless just because you're not getting the experience you desire like a soda out of a vending machine.

Hey, whoa, timeout - what do you mean "bypass?"

It's possible to get three strikes on hook, at no point were survivors EVER entitled to that…and they shouldn't be considering how fast the gens can be done, not every killer kit is S-tier and capable of consistent 12-hook matches.

"NOBODY thinks slugging is fair besides killer mains who never play survivor."

I wouldn't make a blanket claim slugging is unfair. It depends on the situation. There is a time and place for everything. Yes, some of the examples shown on these forums are unacceptable and Bhvr really need to look at solutions to those situations.