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Is 4 man slugging the new kid on the block for killer content creation
Comments
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4 x 4 is 16 but that’s besides the point.
The “survivors have 16 perks” point is moot because in practice I only have control over 4 and the other 12 I don’t. They could all be a bunch of Invocations or No Mithers for all I know.
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Yeah it is, I was in a match with a popular streamer who played as leather face on midwitch, his goal from the beginning was to slug for the bleedout and count the rage quits and salt. i eventually found a tiktok of him from the match. The issue is that content creators are super influential in community gameplay, and when they behave a certain way it justifies it for the others or causes the other people to play like the as well. personally i think its unfortunate that people rely solely on mirroring content creators rather than finding their own way.
The only content creators I watch on DBD are Demi (hes funny and lighthearted) and Twoknee (hes funny and lighthearted). I watch for the humor and vibes rather than those treating DBD like a professional sport. I used to watch more but they slowly started getting into the slug and tunnel mentality, became super passive aggressive, and was more about dominating for content rather than enjoyment.
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The reason slugging is so popular is because of how much time is wasted just picking a survivor up, walking over to a hook, placing them on a hook and then getting punished with a near instant heal off hook (Resurgence) or body blocking with DS, OTR, etc. When you experience that from hooking you can begin to feel like you're punished for doing your objective rather than rewarded. It's a really simple matter of "Do I want to shoot myself in the kneecap for no reason? No, no I don't, so I'm going to apply pressure elsewhere and get to feel rewarded for quick chases instead of punished"
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Twoknee is my favorite and only DBD youtuber i watch regularly. He is a fun and chill guy to see play.
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Builds focused around Knock Out are just nasty in solo queue. I’ve admittedly used them before to rush through challenges and it feels cruel. The survivors don’t seem to know what’s going on. The match basically ends when that first survivor goes down. It’s just awful. I don’t face it often when I queue as survivor though.
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newsflash: survivors can only use their own perks
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Wow really who woulda known
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you may or may not like him. Im not here to tell you whether to like him or not. I dont think the hate he gets is warranted but you and everyone else are free to have whatever opinions you wish. He is not wrong, however. True is in fact a very old dbd player who has been here even longer than someone like Otz has. This is a fact that Otz himself has admitted in the past. True is also a very skilled player, to deny this is the epitome of foolishness. It is therefore very reasonable, and very correct based on him being one of the oldest Dbd players still around who has always been ahead of most other players in skill, to say that true knows what the heck he is talking about a lot of the time. He is not correct all of the time, no one is. But the amount of hate and dismissal that man gets is honestly baffling.
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I like him too and also think the hate he gets is excessive and mostly unwarranted but i was just saying how I've seen 2 different unconnected channels do the same thing and have the same opinion thus asking if this is the newest trend.
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If you watch him play, yes, his build is strong, and it allmost crtainly will become more widespread. Its not just for views though, it is actually just the best way to play killer right now.
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What did you expect to would happen after adding 10 seconds to hook stages and nerfing absolutely all regression perks? Now give us base-kit unbreakable, I'm already warning you all that you're not going to like the consequences that this would bring. Killers are not going to magically stop wanting to win, they will do whatever it takes.
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survivors can’t counter slugging? That’s news to me. Every time I leave someone on the ground to chase another nearby survivor, the slugged survivor gets picked up within a minute or two. Every team I face seems to have no issue dealing with it. If survivors aren’t getting picked up by their teammates, that’s a problem with the survivors, not the killer. I agree that Knockout is disproportionately oppressive against solo queue teams, but that is not a problem with killers and how they play. It’s because of the bigger issue of BHVR refusing to address the massive advantage that SWF get from communication
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Curious to see what behavior ( if anything ) are going to do about this. They mentioned it on the survey a little while back.
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I think if that survey came out now, even in 6 weeks or so, that have passed, it would get very different answers and results on the slugging related parts, or at least it would on the UK servers. It has increased massively in a very short time.
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I put 4 man slugging answers on that survey since i already experienced it before and the one time i watched a random dbd streamers stream he was going against a 4 man slugging singularity. He was in a SWF and werent bad so seeing them not be able to counter it put the writing on the wall for me for the next "meta". Its not super meta yet but i can see it be if things dont get changed.
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FNAF is actually giving me good hopes. It's one of the biggest licenses BHVR can get. They will get too many new players. And most likely BHVR knows that as well. I am hoping they will nerf tunnelling slugging before FNAF chapter to keep those new players in game.
Probably people like Tru3 won't like this but it's fine for game's health.
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Honestly Otz is just as harmful to the game as other content creators, always wording perks in the most optimally used cases getting everything that could be fun for casual players nerfed into the ground, and complaining when behaviour doesn't listen to him trying to force a competitive balancing perspective onto the game.
I'm not saying all his opinions are bad, but 6.1 among other changes were influenced by him among others.6 -
Not to big of a fan of otzdrava or hens i think there opinions on balance are hit and miss. When otz made that singularity slug video i came across it.
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While reasons for things being done in the game can be debated and discussed exhaustively based on personal opinions, (as its a chicken and the egg scenario) I do agree that for every action there will be a reaction. And your opinion that this rise in tactics is a reaction of the action of perk changes and hook stage changes, may very well be true. That means that their will be a reaction to this action as well, and it's not unreasonable to assume that the current "go next" epidemic is one such reaction, in addition to pushing survivor players away from SoloQ, and more towards SWF, as there are less and less incentives to play Solo. You may be correct in your reasoning for things being the way they are because of the reasons you personaly believe, but by that own logic then consequences for this reaction should be expected. You may feel it that warnings were given before and they were ignored, resulting in the frustrating current game we see today, so it stands to reason we shouldn't ignore these warnings either. The game isn't on a scale, it's a cycle.
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This idea has been around a while. I remember even otz tried this experiment when skull Merchant was still alive. Tbf fair though, that had the 3gen context of "is it more merciful/faster to bleed people out than play normally as SM"
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STB essentialy removes hooking from the game for the majority of the killers. Only high mobility killers can really effectively use hooks, now.
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....how in the nine hells do you come to that conclusion?
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How? I've played the game. There's a reason some of the most experienced killer players immediately ensure the first survivor is slugged and not hooked.
Low mobility killers have been getting more and more punished for hooking over the past few patches. With STB, teams can now force those killers (especially the weaker m1 killers) to not have any kills by the endgame by forcing the hooks to be evenly spread out.This essentially puts them into a very significant disadvantage during the endgame unless they rely on crutch perks such as NOED. Essentially, there's too many ways that killers hooking survivors can be severely punished by the survivors. It's far safer and more reliable to just slug all survivors, now (which is a very unfun and problematic design choice by the devs).
Bear in mind, my comments are at a high mmr level. Lower mmr survivors typically don't have the organization to weaponize perks well enough to punish killers who hook. The devs do not balance the game around high mmr but instead at the mid level. The big problem is that it is pretty easy to get into high mmr - the ceiling is fairly low...so we see an epidemic of it happening in a large amount of games.
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“Bear in mind, my comments are at a high mmr level.”
Thats what they all say
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That's just strategy. It's not even 4-man slugging. Tru3's variant is slugging 3, hooking 1. And like he said, the strat is usually countered simply by good survivors. They don't let each other just be on the ground for minutes. But I really don't see a trend in that being the new killer content, as you say. I see more pseudo smurfing, where the survivors always look clueless and that's why they lose.
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I added an addendum to clarify that. Re-check the post. Also, because "they all say" doesn't mean it's not true. P100 killer, over 2,000 hours (that's not that impressive in reality), and regularly face full p100 squads that clearly are working together. Believe it or not, there is such a thing as high mmr. The problem is, the ceiling is very low, so people can easily get to high mmr. I'm just saying the issue doesn't exist for newer or casual players, and the devs prefer to balance around casual play. I'd say many people posting in the forum are likely not casual players, so yeah of course you're seeing mass numbers of people saying there's a slugging epidemic. Perks like STB heavily encourage it at high mmr play.
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But it's not in a good spot. People gravitated towards slugging because hooks give survivors all their strongest perks, and completely halt the killer's momentum. With 2v8 cages, killers had way less time waste and got right back into chase soon after. That time waste alone, killers cannot afford against good survivors. Then imagine survivors actually doing good chases, like a minute+, which the game allows but it totally isn't balanced for. I've almost been convinced of what you said, sometimes. I think, "You know, I did beat that strong team," or "I have been getting more than a few wins lately." And then the moment I go against good survivors, I feel powerless again. We can keep pretending that the random matchmaking balances the game for itself, and that those "rare" matches against strong teams don't matter, but it feels like we keep sweeping the real issues under the rug instead of addressing them.
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Theres a reason we don't believe a word of this. Its because we've played the game.
First off none of that quote has proven, or even related, to Shoulder the Burden removing hooks. Do perks that proc on hook still work with StB? Yes. Does at least one survivor still have that hook state? Yes. Does a survivor still have to get to the hook to unhook? Yes. Can the killer still actually physically hook a survivor despite StB in play? Obviously.
Second, should the killer be spreading out hooks in the beginning StB does little and the only way that it forces the killer to spread hooks is if everyone has it and everyone uses it…which spreads the first 4 hooks only. All those perks that "punish hooking"? about 80+% only punishes going after the unhooked (we're admittedly pulling this number outta air, but give us a list you think "punishes hooking" and we'll do the math for a more correct number). Swinging at the unhooker looks appeasing dont it? Especially if they used StB, its effectively free food in many many cases.Third: "Bear in mind, my comments are at a high mmr level" :has a few parts.
1: Don't actually believe you just from the first claim alone. Believe alot less since people who apparently have to say they're in "high mmr" tend to think it means something. More on that below.
2: You can't actually see the mmr number. You can tell just as well as we can.
3: mmr doesn't assess skill level well. For killer it says you got kills, not explicitly how you got them just like survivors who hide all game with wake up and sole survivor can be "high mmr" because they still escape.
4: "The big problem is that it is pretty easy to get into high mmr" by this logic then everyone would be high mmr and your comment: "Bear in mind, my comments are at a high mmr level" : means nothing by your own admission because most will be there at best or at minimum we would too and since we dont believe a word of this, we got 2 (technically 4) people of high mmr completely at odds.
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I mean TRU doesn't have any skills that apply in the real world. If he need to be a "Big Man" in video games then good for him.
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Going to stop you here as you're going off on a very random off topic subject. You're trying to change the subject off of the problem and instead about how I personally play. Most of your responses are off basis, so let's get back onto the subject- then I'll bother to respond. My comment has 0% to do with me. My comment is that the problem exists at high mmr. It's easy to get to high mmr. It's not remotely bragging rights to be at high mmr. My statement was that the issue doesn't really exist to new or casual players but instead at high mmr. I couldn't care less about your mmr or my mmr. The mmr ceiling is very low, so only having a few hundred hours can easily get you into the high mmr bracket - it ain't hard. This isn't chess. BHVR set a very low ceiling that's easy to achieve.
Now that you (hopefully) understand that - try again.
That being said, the devs do not balance around high mmr. They balance around mid mmr - ie for the more casual playerbase. They've also refuted the concept that the game is competitive and view the game as a casual party game you'd play with your friends. The problem is that anyone who isn't a casual player can easily get into those higher mmr ranks, so more and more people are getting into the problematic portion of the game where balance is just broken. At high mmr, there's so many ways to punish killers for hooking that it's simply more effective to slug survivors instead of hooking them unless you happen to be a high mobility killer. Any time a killer ends up being problematic, BHVR either mass nerfs all killers or mass buffs survivors which then makes the weaker killers even weaker which then pushes them to play dirtier and dirtier tactics just to stay afloat. That's also why higher mmr tends to always end up with the same killer picks over and over - all the other options just are too weak. Even the numbers shown by BHVR shows the majority of killers are well below their 60% intended kill rate. Now, I suppose that's me going off topic. My point is, we have a slugging epidemic because killers are strongly discouraged from hooking, but that's not necessarily a problem for the casual player which is what the devs balance around. If someone is posting regularly on the forum, there's a decent chance they arent a casual player, so it's not surprising to see so many people complaining (rightfully so) about slugging being a problem. All I'm saying is STB is the straw that broke the camel's back - killers are too severely punished for hooking survivors outside of casual games.
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this is just mean and hatful for no reason
the sad thing is it isn't even true lol
he was a graphic design guy before streaming
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You're trying to change the subject off of the problem and instead about how I personally play
The problem is the following:
Your explanation heavily implies that it is about you playing the game. First sentence [effectively] below.
How? I've played the game.
We are not trying to change the subject. We are dissecting your explanation as we see and understand it. At worst we've derailed the op's topic (for what its worth your comments are more inline with the ops topic). The sentence implies to us that you've seen and experience these things to the point you confidently stated the problem quote. With what follows it then implies to us you believe your in "high mmr" which leads to the third part with that list.
My statement was that the issue doesn't really exist to new or casual players but instead at high mmr […….] The mmr ceiling is very low, so only having a few hundred hours can easily get you into the high mmr bracket - it ain't hard.
These 2 sentences do something funny. Since the mmr ceiling is low, wouldn't that mean casuals reach "high" mmr quite fast as well? Which then means that this "issue" would exist for casuals no? Thats not even going into what defines "casual".
At high mmr, there's so many ways to punish killers for hooking that it's simply more effective to slug survivors instead of hooking them unless you happen to be a high mobility killer.
As we stated in part 2, most of the things we can think of punish going for the unhooked, not actually hooking. Bar 3 perks that we can think of, most are for the benefit of the unhooked person. Killers are not discouraged from hooking as all the benefits from the first part of our post still apply, they are discouraged from chasing the one unhooked. STB especially doesn't do this as it doesn't do anything to the hook itself, ie: doesn't stop perks, pressure, etc. What we say to those using StB as some excuse to say "killers are punished for hooking" is BS.
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Hooking is the least fun part of a match as a killer.
The hook has to be right where I want it, a scourge hook if I'm wasting time with those perks, and the pickup has to be easy…
I almost always use the hooks, but its work, and its totally for the survivor's enjoyment. Hit and down and move on to the next chase is much more fun.
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I thought Choy brought a lot of attention to things in DBD that needed addressing over the years and generally I respected his content.
But I actually unsubbed and unfollowed after this as I saw him on Twitch doing his slugging with Knight thing and while I get he is trying to make a point, I feel this is just contributing to the toxicity and negativity that is having a big impact on present day DBD. At least for me personally as I am finding it hard to play my favourite role of solo queue survivor due to the negative and toxic play styles of an increasing number of killers now.
I think you can make a point without adding to the toxicity of the game, this isn't helping, it is making it worse.
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Yeah pretty disappointing
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Calculated nonsense
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You're still going off topic, but I'll at least respond to one on topic. If a casual player plays enough, yes, they can easily get to high mmr. At that point, they arent really a casual. Bear in mind, we are talking about few descriptions unique to dbd that isn't the same for other games. For example, someone who has 100 hours in a game is usually considered someone who has significant experience in the game. In DBD, that's still a very, very new player in terms of experience. 500 hours in and you're just starting to get a decent handle of good gameplay but still have a lot to learn. That's why I mentioned me having 2000 hours isn't all that impressive. Some of the most experienced and skilled players have well over 10,000 hours. Regardless, the ceiling is pretty low. Thats why reaching high mmr isn't really bragging rights. I'm just pointing out the problem exists at the higher mmr bracket and not for newer or casual players. While a lot of "basic level players" flood the higher mmr bracket, that's also the same place the experienced players reside. A 500 hour player can be in the same high mmr bracket as a 10,000 hour player - the ceiling is that low. A while back, BHVR actually acknowledged this problem and implemented a special bracket above high mmr to try to mitigate the problem, but it essentially was just to try to push the extreme skilled players into being more likely to face each other. Essentially, the low, hard ceiling got converted to a sort of soft ceiling specific to the highest tier players. If I recall correctly, the soft cap went from 1800 to 2100. You can look up their post about it. In theory, a small population of the player base should breach this "cream of the crop" tier and is, based on BHVR's own words, only is generally populated by professional dbd players. It help push them into their own special bracket, but for the rest of us, hitting the high mmr bracket is still fairly easy. I'm not sure where I am MMR-wise, but considering the ceiling is very low, I have a decent amount of hours (2000), I regularly face p100 squads, and I've also gone up against One Pump Willy (considered one of, if not the best onryo player in the world), it's not unreasonable to expect that I've hit the high mmr bracket that can easily be achieved by 100 hours of gameplay. I'm not sure WHY you're obsessed with my mmr level. Don't get me wrong- I'm flattered, but if it makes you feel better, there's that.
Post edited by RpTheHotrod on0 -
At this point we feel you just want to cherry pick what you wish to say and respond to since this is what we got after explaining everything, so little point in us responding in kind.
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Then use UB wisely, I can't count the number of instances in which UB was the only reason anybody escaped.
Also try WGLF/MFT and then start to appreciate the fact that you get more chances to play from getting knocked down than getting hooked. Whether it's on the hook or on the ground, you're sitting out either way, the only problem is your perception of this.
Solution to gripes about solo queue is to not queue solo for a team role (how surprising).
The killer could be lurking anywhere, it's weird to get angry about it if you've ever seen a horror movie. Plus there's a system that literally gives you a free hook-escape if the killer lurks too close for too long.
You're sadly mistaken if you think there's time to worry about the order in which people get hooked or feelings about getting knocked down. The killer has about 4 minutes to make a difference against good survivors and there's no time to gauge the skill level of the players you're fighting.
The killer isn't allowed to defend a generator after 8 regression events (they're basically forced to let the survivors score a goal), so I'm not sure why 3-genning is coming up.
As for your perk budget, you can cover a few bases, but you can't cover them all, which is intended. So use your slots to aid in whatever you tend to experience the most "problems" with.
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Whenever they say that lame saying its like me saying their power and 2 add ons is 7 perks vs 4 in a 1 on 1 situation.
Post edited by buggybug on6 -
That's a fair assessment. I'm just trying to stay on topic. You keep trying to change the subject to my personal gameplay which isn't remotely related to the subject on hand, so I'm just skipping over those comments. If you are so interested in my gameplay, you're welcome to look up my videos sometime, but this isn't the time nor the place to discuss it.
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If you actually read what was written you'd realize that only one part actually talks about you specifically. The rest is not about you and we see you edited one post to make it seem like we're fixated on it. We really couldn't care less about MMR or at anything related, we're pointing out the flaws in your thinking regarding STB which you practically STATED your ignoring along with our previous explanation of why our first response was created as such. All this combined is insulting to the 3 of us and thus not worth more than this explanation. Either fully respond or leave this as is but WE won't respond unless it fills the criteria.
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So just personal insults?
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That's why I stopped trying to win and will rather focus purely on chases. Using 1 or 2 passive slowdowns to prolong the game just a little bit so I can chase more and that's it.. no matter if all, some or none escape.
Focusing on winning will only result in you getting burnt out, forcing yourself to try and find ways to make winning easier or possible just isn't healthy in the long run.
But then again, fun is subjective. Some people like to win and they'll try anything to make that possible. My personal fun in dbd is just having good chases, Perk value and lots of points.
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