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What to do about survivors "going next"
Players have no incentive to stay in a match (bloodpoints are WORTHLESS), and there's nothing to discourage them from leaving.
Matches are also often (considered to be) a foregone conclusion, because the meta for killers is to snowball as hard as possible, in the least fun way possible - by killing a survivor ASAP. It's not the killers' fault, it's just how the game is designed.
So if a survivor feels like a match is going to go poorly for them (someone got downed quickly, the map is hard to play on, the killer is frustrating to face, etc), they prefer to save themselves some time and frustration and go next. And there's no reason for them not to.
So what to do about this issue? The answer is twofold.
1. Give survivors hope. Give them hope that they can escape even if the match is going poorly.
>How though?
By discouraging kill-based snowballing (slugging, tunnelling) and incentivising putting pressure on the entire survivor team.
>And how do you do that?
By making killer wins based on hooks instead of kills (no reason to slug or tunnel if it doesn't win you the game), and by giving the killer bonuses, rewards for hooking (like Grim Embrace does.)
A rubberband mechanic for survivors AND killers would also be a healthy addition to the game. A survivor dying shouldn't drag the rest of the team down with him.
2. Give players a reason to win.
Currently, it is pretty immaterial to a survivor whether or not he or his teammates survive the trial. There are no rewards for surviving. He doesn't miss out on anything by going next.
There's also theoretically no reason for the killer to hook even if hooks are the win condition. You don't get anything for hooking survivors, and killing them might very well be more satisfying to you than meaningless "winning" with no reward.
If there was a ranking system where you could receive cosmetics, charms, status symbols (your rank displayed next to your name), winning would actually mean something.
I think this is what it comes down to.
With such additions, it would also make sense to implement far harsher penalties for going AFK/giving up/disconnecting, to punish trolls who give up no matter what.
This is my take on it. Incoherent rant over.
Comments
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This would all go away if they balanced the game off of hooks instead of kills, made tunneling impossible from a gameplay perspective, and encouraged killers to go for hooks.
My suggestion for all of this is:
- Wins and losses are now base on hooks instead of kills and survivors win or lose as a team.
- 0-4 hooks is a killer loss/survivor win
- 5-7 hooks is a draw
- 8-12 hooks is a a killer win/survivor loss
- Alternatively, if they really don't want to do that, the killer is considered to have "won" if they got at least 1 kill.
- Remove the 4% mechanic
- All survivors now share the 1st (and only the 1st) hook state
- This means that when you hook a survivor, if you tunnel the same one, they are still on the "first hook state" until 4 hooks have happened
- The earliest a survivor can be removed from the game is on the 6th hook, and that is only if you tunnel them out by the time you hit 6 hooks, the game should be nearing its end with the last gen or 2.
- When a survivor is unhooked, they gain a new status effect called Ethereal for 30 seconds. While Ethereal:
- A survivor cannot work on a generator
- A survivor cannot do totems
- They cannot heal other survivors
- They CAN unhook a teammate
- This cancels the effect, and then shows their aura to the killer (to prevent SWF abuse)
- They CAN pick up a slugged survivor
- This cancels the effect, and then shows their aura to the killer (to prevent SWF abuse)
- The intent of being able to pick up teammates and unhook is to prevent scenarios where everyone is on the hook, or slugged a bit better if the survivor chooses to do so while making sure its not abusable by SWFs
- They are invisible to the killer
- They make no collision with the killer
- They are unaffected by any killer perks, addons, or power
- They are unable to be injured by the killer
- They see the aura of all survivors
- They see the aura of the killer when they are within 16 meters of them
- After the effect ends, the survivor is fully healed
- Killer gets a basekit corrupt that lasts 30 seconds
- Killer gets a basekit corrupt on totems that lasts 30 seconds
- Killer gets a basekit 10% off of a gen when kicking
- Killer basekit regression doubled to 0.5 charges per second
- Nerf a ton of gen defense perks, as regression basekit is much stronger.
- Rework all the anti-tunnel perks, because they aren't necessary anymore and will lead to survivors abusing them offensively.
This does several things:
- Survivors can no longer be removed from the game early, the earliest you can remove a survivor is on the 6th hook, which at that point, the game should be nearing the end.
- Tunneling is effectively impossible from the perspective of a killer, with the ethereal status effect, you can't tunnel the survivor.
- Killers are encouraged to hook, because the game is a win or loss based on hooks and not kills
- Killers are encouraged to hook because the ethereal status effect also works against the survivor, meaning when a survivor is hooked, you KNOW they are on a "time out" for the time they are on the hook, and at least 30 seconds after that, where you don't have to worry about them. Giving you time to start another chase with a different survivor.
- Survivors save a little time as a team because when you unhook a teammate you don't have to heal them, they just go on timeout for 30 seconds and are fully healed
- Killer basekit regression is buffed and power is removed from gen defense perks, making it so you can actually have a variety of builds
- Killer basekit gets a boost at the start of the game so they aren't losing 3 gens in the first chase.
There might be some more work that needs to be done at that point, but i would call this our "starting point" and adjustments can be made from there.
Personally i think they should fundamentally rework the entire game to be about feeding the entities "hope" and its less about kills and escapes, and more about doing activities to fill up a "hope" meter, and is entirely different. But, that will never happen, and the above can happen in the current framework of the game, so i'm only suggesting a realistic change that is actually possible.
8 - Wins and losses are now base on hooks instead of kills and survivors win or lose as a team.
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It was a good write-up. I respect that you focused on how to make winning feel better. I’d like to discuss the idea of making getting killed feel better.
In a game like Dbd, getting killed is part of the experience. But for some players it does seem like getting eliminated really bothers them. I’ve mentioned this concept to other forum users before but why not add a death token system?
Every time you die you get a “death token” or something. Ideally these death tokens would be used in some mini game to play in between rounds like food for a Dbd giga-pet. @hermitkermit Mentioned a mini pet Entity that you could feed between rounds.
This idea isn’t set in stone or anything. Death tokens could do anything. I just think that making dying an easier pill to swallow in game like this would go a very very long way.
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My post is a bit long, so I understand if you didn't read it, but this is… kind of exactly what I said.
The "ethereal" mechanic and the "kill on 6th hook" mechanics are interesting, but seem a bit too extreme. I don't think the playerbase would stomach such radical changes to core gameplay. I don't think BHVR would be interested in implementing them.
Such or other kind rubberband mechanic is necessary, though. I think a more digestible idea would be bonuses for repair speed after a survivor has died. Or something similar.That is definitely something novel and worth exploring. I think the community as a whole has a very negative attitude right now, everyone is burned out.
BHVR should focus on improving morale and this kind of "death token" system, or something similar, would contribute to that greatly.5 -
Yes! I remember that conversation fondly. I think giving incentives such as special cosmetics, banners, icons, a lil entity pet or maybe even item skins or things like that as rewards for meeting achievements in matches is a great idea. Pushing the game towards a healthier overall experience where both roles are rewarded with more than just BP. It would be a shake up in the right direction I believe.
The game has so many small parts that make up each role, and currently those small parts seem overshadowed by the “win/lose condition” it should matter how someone wins not just if they win. Someone that hides all game and waits for hatch should not be rewarded more than someone who participated in chase and completed gens. Someone that doesn’t get a kill should still be rewarded for all the multiple hooks on multiple survivors they get. Right now the game feels like it doesn’t matter how well you did in the match, only the end result. It reminds me a bit from when I was a kid, the people that cheat on exams or homework always used that kind of mentality “it doesn’t matter how I get the answers, only that I get them” And in the current landscape of DBD, it fosters that kind of thinking, which is a shame because it puts so much more pressure on people and can take away the fun! Those individual parts should make more of an impact than they currently do.
…plus I really want a little pet entity crow 🫠🐦⬛
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First of all the time to make the game about hooks over kills was years ago when MMR first came out
Yall mocked people like tru3 for saying it and here we are
Secondly There is nothing you can do to stop people from giving up in DBD You can only make it as hard as possible
A good start would be to remove self unhook
AND make it so Survivors either get kicked from the game is the have 3 crows for too long when not slugged
You cant stop pallet griefing but you can make it reportable
Also yes i know killers can bodyblock to give a survivor a dc penalty with #2 but i assume that would be fixed if they added it
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Well, I don't know if you're counting me as part of the "y'all", because I've never really participated in the community. And don't really care about or watch truetalent.
That being said, BHVR can't stop all people from giving up forever, but they can definitely try to address the issue of WHY they give up in the first place. There's a reason why they do it, and this is what my OP tries to discuss.
Trolls who give up regardless of circumstances, just because "wah i dont like the killer", definitely exist and definitely deserve strict punishments. But the majority of those players who give up in their trials have legitimate reasons for doing so. They're not in a very good emotional state when playing the game, because of how the game is designed.
That's what the discussion is about.5 -
I think survivors actually are replaced by bots if they idle too long. Not 100% sure but I believe they’re kicked from the match / disconnected and a bot takes their place.
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They were right to shoot down this suggestion because it's awful.
The only thing people seem to care about more than winning is getting easy games. So if they based MMR on hooks, people would simply try to kill survivors (and win) yet not use hooks to do so, giving them easier games.
Oh look, an excessive slugging meta.
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Yea making the CHASE game about hooks instead of kills is awful idea
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My point is that people won't make it about chases though, and this system is very obviously easily abused.
Not acknowledging that means you either can't see that obvious issue, or you do see it and want to desperately abuse it.
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Maybe the idea wouldn't be so awful if it was complimented by a comeback mechanic, to make tunnelling/slugging less viable.
It would be hard to abuse the system to de-rank while still "winning" the trial from a psychological perspective. You would just be de-ranking at that point, all while getting dunked on by survivors.
And you can do that right already, right now, you can "game" the system by intentionally taking losses, going AFK, etc. to lower your MMR. Changing the killer objective wouldn't change that.I'm not really sure what your criticism here is.
And I'm not sure why you're so quick to accuse people of arguing in bad faith.
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Minor typo.
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There is no fix. It's a community entitlement issue that won't go away with BHVR making Survivor more "fair" because people will still perceive their situation as unfair as a method of covering for their own shortcomings as a player.
Just making a win based on hooks doesn't affect anything, because tunneling is still the most efficient way to build up hooks. A fresh unhook, provided the killer zoned and played macro right, should be in a relative deadzone and be injured - the re-down, even through antitunnel, should be easier than chasing someone fresh.
Rewarding the survivors for losing a teammate incentivises intentionally failing teammates if they aren't performing, and it also further incentivises slugging because you can keep a survivor in a useless spot that isn't also giving your opponent a buff for completing your stated objective.
Ranking systems would make the entire game less fun because at that point you're being outright punished for running anything remotely fun instead of what is best. So now we're just consolidating the game even more on top tier loadouts and killers, making the game feel stale and more unwinnbale than it already does for these players.
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So, people did exactly this before MMR even existed, back when ranks/grades were the thing. It was actually a huge problem years ago when people complained constantly about deranking being a huge problem.
Basically, the long story short was that people could literally see their "MMR" change back then and just manipulated the system for easier games. It was a big enough problem that it was a "meta" problem for a long time.
This is essentially just doing that again, but incentivizing an already awful play style that's also currently becoming meta (excessive slugging).
And I'm not sure why you're so quick to accuse people of arguing in bad faith.
There's only logically two options: you either realize that this system can be easily abused, or you don't realize that.
If you don't realize that, and genuinely think it's a good idea, then when I point it a huge flaw in the system it should give you pause. It'd be like saying, hey, what if we have survivors auric cells for chain blinding the killer? Does that seem like something we want the gameplay to revolve around by heavily incentivizing it? No, that sounds terrible.
If you do realize that it's a flawed system, but refuse to acknowledge the flaw, that's called a bias. I think calling out that bias is justified. Similarly, if you didn't realize it was heavily flawed, but still refuse to acknowledge when it's pointed out to you, that's also bias.
This idea would be dead on arrival (for everyone) if it weren't coming from a content creator. It's not my fault if people can't think for themselves or think through the consequences of something like this, even when it's pointed out to them.
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I don't know about a rubberband system, dead by daylight is an assymetrical game at heart. The 1 v 4, the dynamics between killer and survivor are hard to adjust for and frankly, wouldn't be fun because realistically the only thing you could feasibly account for in a rubberband system are generator speeds and that's just an awful idea all around.
Faster gen speeds if you're winning too hard as killer? That's no fun.
Slower gen speeds if you're winning too hard as survivor? That's no fun.
Not to mention it'd throw the balance of gen-related perks completely out of whack on both sides.
I also think that at the most simple argument is that if either side is performing poorly or making too many/aggregious mistakes, why should they be rewarded at all? Dbd is a pretty punishing game and losing really sucks but I don't think having a system in place that rewards bad/sloppy play is a good idea.
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Just bring back rank based matchmaking, it rewards individual effort and gives a reason to play a match out regardless of outcome.
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one complaint I always heard was that solo survivor feels hopeless if the killer tunnels out and your stuck with 2 teammates you feel hopeless.
1v4 is the standard and 1v1 you have the hatch and end game collapse.
but when your at 3v1 you feel lost if your not communicating.I feel there should be some basekit mechanisms to fix the hopelessness might sound op but there spit balling
- If the killer kills 1 survivor and there’s 5 gens left an item spawns in the middle of the map. It’s a insta BNP that will instantly complete a gen(pretty much 1.0.0 BNP, NOTE will only spawn if there are 5 gens left if there are 3 survivors only alive)
- If the killer is slugging and a survivor is on the floor for more than 2 minutes the survivors should gain the ability to kill themselves so they don’t have to stay on the floor
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Great ideas. The current game environment is very bad, and more than 2/3 of the games in the solo queue of survivors will feel powerless and hopeless. The killer can quickly change strategies to kill all survivors:
- Among the 4 survivors, there will usually be 1-2 people with poor operation, and the killer can quickly kill them 3-0.
- The killer can stay near the survivors who are hooked, because the survivors will definitely come to rescue, and the killer can take advantage of the survivors' mistakes when rescuing people.
- The killer can stay next to 3 or 4 adjacent generators. The killer with a one-shot kill and stealth mechanism can quickly knock down the survivors who are repairing the generator.
In short, the survivors have a low tolerance rate for mistakes. All four people cannot make mistakes. Just one mistake is enough to reverse the situation. But there is only one killer, They can make mistakes, the killer has the initiative in the game, and They can take the initiative to change strategies.
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Who mocked Tru3 for saying wins should be based around hooks? It's been pretty much UNIVERSALLY agreed upon for years
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no it hasn't
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remove dc penalty. it's that simple. people will always give up, but it's better to have a bot than having an afk or one less teammate. if they don't want that, then they should try to fix all the things that makes survivor miserable like blight or slugging.
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Faster gen speeds if you're winning too hard as killer? That's no fun.Slower gen speeds if you're winning too hard as survivor? That's no fun.Why is it fun in 2v8? 2v8 is intentionally designed to be fun. Why would they put it in the "fun" mode if it wasn't fun?
Yes. Let players choose the difficulty of their matches again! I miss goofing off with people in DBD. Now I can't really do that.
Thank you for speaking the truth. Kills have always been prioritized over hooks. Players that prioritize hooks are more casual.
I am not saying this to be rude — but did this actually happen? I might be blinded by my own views here, but all I know is that the streamers who are truly talented at playing Dead by Daylight tend to complain so much it becomes part of their identity. It does not compute in my head that the same person that is currently encouraging slugging to prove a point also wants to balance and improve the game's health by providing solutions instead of giving the community new problems to solve. If the content creator you described actually, legitimately, seriously thinks that wins should be based on hooks, I will need to step outside, smoke and reflect that I actually might agree with that specific content creator for the first time in my entire life.
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I just wish players who regularly SoH and DC could be put into some low priority queue with each other or something. Seems a fitting punishing for wasting everyone else's time.
Played 20 games today, DC or SoH in straight up 10 of them. Honestly wouldn't care if they got banned for a week at this point. Just get them off the game.
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I wish there was behaviour score like Dota has. Then simply survivors who like to give up often, are going to play with survivors who also give up…
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