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A Thorough, Comprehensive Set Of Slugging Changes
Back at it again with another pitch.
I'll cut right to the chase: Aggressive slugging is kind of an issue in the game right now, one that requires specific perks and often some kind of coordination to beat. On the flipside, there are forms of slugging that are not only unproblematic but often necessary for the game's nuance and balance to remain intact. This makes fixing the former kind of tricky, because you have to keep the latter in mind.
I believe I have a set of changes that'll preserve the healthier form of slugging, addresses the more problematic forms of slugging, and even hopefully addresses some of the problematic survivor strategies that might arise as a result of strengthening anti-slugging in the basekit. We're going to look first at system changes, and then at a few perks that would probably need to be adjusted if this were to ever be tested.
The System Changes
- Survivors can now pick themselves up after 45 seconds has elapsed and they have reached 95% recovery
The bones of this change are simple - it's basekit Unbreakable - but there are a few nuances that I believe make this pitch a bit more robust than the last time the devs attempted this. The main thing I want people to note is that the two requirements I just laid out are separate. As soon as you're downed, a timer begins regardless of whether you start recovering, and only after that timer ends can you pick yourself up.
Reaching 95% recovery takes, according to the wiki, roughly 30 seconds. If you start recovering as soon as you're downed, that means you'll be chilling at 95% for roughly 15 seconds— but, crucially, if you start recovering after you're initially downed, because you're trying to crawl away or because you just weren't sure if you were about to be picked up, you'd probably end up just being able to pick yourself up as soon as the bar is full.
This way of doing it allows us to maintain the existence of recovery speed increases without running the risk of the old Finisher Mori PTB's problems. They wouldn't be for picking yourself up faster, nothing would change that number, they'd be for making it so your teammates can pick you up quicker once they start running towards you.
There'd also be some niche elements like crawling away from the killer and being able to pick yourself up slightly faster overall, or pairing them with Plot Twist for a faster heal, etcetera.
- The time it takes for survivors to bleed to death is increased to 5 minutes (was 4 minutes)
I don't want downing players repeatedly to be a viable way of circumventing chases and spreading pressure the way tunnelling can be, so making it take a bit longer seems appropriate. Nothing much more to say on this one.
- If a survivor is picked up from the dying state by any means, they are inflicted with a new status effect that prevents them from wiggling for 20 seconds
Now, this one's to circumvent the potential issues with a basekit Unbreakable combined with a longer bleedout timer. The obvious concern would be that an already potent and aggravating strategy - making yourself unhookable by dying intentionally in a corner or in the lower areas of some structures - would become uncounterable if you can't even rely on bleeding survivors out to do it.
This way, if survivors try that tactic, you know you can hook them if you just wait out their first pickup, because they won't be able to wiggle free.
For the sake of not confusing players who have no idea why this mechanic would even be necessary, I would suggest that this status effect probably not show up on screen unless you're actually being carried during its timer.
The Perk Changes
Most of these changes probably don't need to happen at the same time, it'd just be nice to give the perks that lose a little oomph from their biggest effect becoming basekit a little something to make up for it. However, the first perk listed does need to change in this context.
Flashbang
- Survivors can no longer drop a Flashbang inside the killer's model for a guaranteed save
It's stupid it can do this already, and if slugging as a method of countering hook denial gets slightly weaker by putting you on a timer to capitalise on it, hook denial itself shouldn't have a strategy this potent available. To be clear, the rest are fine- other forms of hook denial have their own counters that are perfectly fine on top of slugging being one of them. Flashbang specifically is an issue, not other forms of saves.
I don't know exactly how this would be coded, though. That's a limitation of my not being an actual game designer, haha.
Unbreakable
- Increases Recovery speed by 35% (unchanged)
- Once per trial, when able to recover, press the Active Ability Button to grant a temporary boost of speed as you stand up
This one's simple. Unbreakable's main effect is the self-pickup, and even its passive recovery speed boost isn't as good when it doesn't synergise with your new basekit self-pickup, so it warrants a new single-use effect that could hypothetically turn the tide of a match.
Having a mini (or possibly identical depending on testing) Sprint Burst effect, somewhat like Plot Twist does, once per trial as you pick up would be a neat tactical option that you have in your back pocket for some scenarios.
No Mither
- Self-pickup effect replaced with the following: The Killer cannot read your aura while you are in chase
If I'm honest, No Mither probably still needs a more ground-up rework, but if we're sticking to the current shape of things and only changing stuff where necessary, I'd say giving this perk another limited stealth effect would be totally appropriate.
Boon: Exponential
- Now allows the user to bypass the basekit timer for self-pickup
Man this was a hard one to phrase in this format.
Basically, Exponential would be completely unchanged. You pick yourself up in roughly 16 seconds while in the radius. Contextually that allows you to bypass the new timer, but the actual times themselves wouldn't be any different compared to using Exponential now.
This perk may still need a buff on its own merits, but I think that's a separate discussion to this one.
Soul Guard & Plot Twist
- No changes
As the main points of value for these perks isn't actually the self-pickup, I don't think they really need changes. I just included them here for completion's sake.
—
So that's it, that's my pitch for how to address slugging without damaging a more expected, "normal" gameflow. What do we think?
Comments
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20 seconds doesn’t help at all if a survivor is running around with a toolbox to sabotage hooks before the killer gets there.
You’re basically saying it’s fine for survivors to force the killer to slug, but not fine if the killer actually wants to slug.
There should be an additional rule that if a survivor is slugged for X seconds, the killer can remotely hook them without picking them off the ground. Because killers shouldn’t be punished for prolonged slugging if they were forced into it.
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Yes it would?
Let's assume that there's a second survivor that wants to sabotage after you pick up someone who recently recovered from the dying state.
You now have the 20 seconds of the new feature PLUS the 16 seconds it typically takes to wiggle free.
That's plenty of time to reach another hook even with a sabotage or two forcing you to change directions. It wouldn't necessarily be impossible for survivors to deny a hook this way, but with 20 seconds of free Mad Grit without needing to hit someone it's going to be quite unlikely.
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Spending 36 seconds carrying a survivor, and watching their teammate repeatedly run in front of me to sabotage a hook, sounds terrible.
If the killer has carried a survivor for 10 seconds, they should get a button to remotely hook the survivor.
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All you need to do is just head towards a different hook once they commit to the sabotage, it's not that big of a deal.
You already get a huge bonus in getting that 20 seconds of no wiggle progression anyway, you don't need to be rewarded more for slugging.
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Or maybe, instead of giving all survivors unreasonably strong buffs that break tons of mechanics, survivors should just let go of the generator for 10 seconds and go raise their ally?
Why should survivors even receive rewards for losing the chase?5 -
That would still be the better call if they're in a position to do it, yeah, since it'd be much quicker.
None of these changes would break anything, I'm reasonably sure of that. I was careful in crafting them to ensure the only thing they'd affect is trying to leave survivors on the ground for unreasonable amounts of time, or trying to make yourself unhookable, two things that do warrant changes.
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So the killer moves toward another hook, and the survivor runs in front of them to sabotage that hook too. And if two survivors have toolboxes, then they can easily sabotage any hook the killer goes near even with an extra 40 seconds. It’s also not addressing the fact that slowly carrying a boil over survivor for over 30 seconds would be very unfun for the killer.
And getting a remote hook prompt after 10 seconds of carrying a survivor has absolutely nothing to do with rewarding the killer for slugging. It’s literally rewarding the killer for attempting the hook a survivor.
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If you move after they commit to actually sabotaging, they don't have time to run in front of you and sabotage that hook too. If there's a third survivor also doing this, then just play it patient and wait for them to exhaust their options, there's only one survivor doing generators in this scenario.
Plus, y'know, you can always drop the survivor you're carrying and chase one of those survivors. You'd have 45 seconds to finish that chase and still get two hooks, and worst case scenario you've still done a lot of damage to the survivor's generator efficiency.
This really isn't different to current sabotage plays except for that you have more time to get the hook. That's not a bad thing, this is still an improvement.
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Okay, I knocked down the survivor under the pallet and next to me is his ally with a firecracker, if I don’t pick it up right away, the survivor will use the perk and throw the palette at me, if I go to drive the survivor away with a firecracker, the survivor under the palette will simply stand up. Question is what should a killer do?
You don't want a level playing field you want to limit killer gameplayyou nerfed the hook perks of killers so much and buffed the perks of survivors that the hook for survivors became more profitable than for the killerand the previously extremely questionable slug tactic has become one of the most effective
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The answer is: Leave the survivor under the pallet and chase the person with a firecracker.
From there, one of two things happens. Either you down the person trying to save within 45 seconds, in which case you get two hooks, or you get them far enough away that they can't loop back around and then return to your slug within 45 seconds to get the one hook.
You're acting like the system I'm pitching would kick in immediately, but 45 seconds is a fairly long time for DBD.
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And now this is a case that punishes an ordinary player, not a slugger, let's move on Shift W chase takes about 30 seconds, with unbreakable it will take you 32 seconds to get up let's say after 30 seconds you down a second survivor, but then 3 survivors come running with a firecracker, and at this time 1 has already recovered and can repair the generator, according to your idea, the killer should again abandon the fallen survivor and chase a new one
Or having won the chase, get hit in the face with a palette and start the chase again, on game 20+ pallets, killer must win chase at least 32 times, which is absurd, you literally just want free wins.1 -
Well, if you think the survivor's going to Shift W you just… wouldn't take that chase? You'd harass them away and then go back to the down you already have.
Also, it's 45 seconds, not 32. Unbreakable wouldn't change the self pickup timer with my changes, the only thing that'd let you bypass that number is Exponential.
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THIS IS THE PROBLEM!
If you spend 10 seconds to drive away a survivor with a firecracker, then during this time the survivor on the ground will already charge the perk and, when you try to pick it up, will drop a palette on you2 -
…I'm a little confused, sorry.
Are you saying the issue isn't Unbreakable at all but is actually Power Struggle…?
Because Power Struggle is completely unchanged here, the scenario you're describing in this post is someone who has Flip Flop + Power Struggle so whenever they're left on the floor they can charge up Power Struggle.
Unless you're saying that they pick themselves up and then drop the pallet on you, in which case, 10 seconds isn't long enough to do that even with the current tools, let alone the tools I'm suggesting.
I'm genuinely not sure what you're saying here, I apologise. Could you elaborate?
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The problem is all at once, if the killer goes after survivor number 2 (note that yourself suggested)during this time, survivor number 1 will already get up and either he or survivor number 3 can come to the help of survivor number 2 so on until the palettes run outthe second case is if you decide to drive away survivor number 2 but not pursue him (there is still a chance that he will quickly return and blind/throw off the palette) and survivor number 1 will charge Power Struggle during this time
And most importantly, all this punishes precisely that the killer who wants to go on hooks, but the killer who wants to slug just down each survivor 6/7 times
If you really want to solve this problem, you shouldn't create situations in which the killer loses no matter what he does, and you shouldn't make it even more difficult for the killer to go on hooks.English is not my native language, but you should get at least 1 meaning, the anti-slug should not interfere with killers who go on hooks more than slug killers
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I see, that does clear some things up.
So, the main point of disagreement I have is in that it still takes 45 seconds to pick yourself up here. If you just walk away to harass survivor 2 away, you have plenty of time to do that before you're at risk of survivor 1 picking themselves up. You could, depending on the scenario, even down survivor 2 before survivor 1 picks themselves up and still have time to hook both.
The second thing to bring up is… how likely is it you're going to face all of these concepts at once? It's possible, but it's not likely, and the Flip Flop + Power Struggle combo (since you need Flip Flop for this strat to work) hasn't even changed, that's how those perks work right now.
It doesn't even happen every match that you get a down under a pallet and there's someone lingering for a save, for that matter. That's already a specific scenario that isn't going to be the case all the time.
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You're still punishing killers for slugging when it's not the killer's choice to slug.
The problem is that your solution really isn't different for the slugging problems that negatively affect killers, but it completely fixes the slugging problems that negatively affect survivors.
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What problems even remain, though?
Flashbang saves being borderline uncounterable would be fixed, and anyone who tries to make themselves unhookable puts themselves at a disadvantage because they'll be hooked after their first attempt at picking themselves up.
What's left that forces the killer to slug for longer than 45 seconds that they'd be punished for here?
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I don't agree with the premise of basekit unbreakable, removing an entire form of pressure from killers with no actual buffs to the killers that lose or overall killer effectiveness, pressure, or action economy is not great for the game, you would need to do an actual gamewide comprehensive rework just to remove the 1 thing properly and even then who knows if the players would actually like it.
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The goal isn't to remove the pressure you can get by leaving someone on the ground, that's why I put a hard requirement of 45 seconds on it - which could be raised a bit if it's too short, of course, all of this would be tested.
You would still, with this change implemented, be able to slug. You'd just be put on a time limit to actually get value from that slug, meaning you'd have to be a little more discerning about when you'd do it. I don't think that's a bad thing, personally.
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Just no,
I am not fully against antislugging mechanic, but it should work only in early game to prevent killers using slugging as main strategy.
Sure, you can go with basekit unbreakable, but put some limitations on it, so it can't be used mid game and definetly not late game.
I believe slugging has place in this game and it is needed tool for the killer, it's issue only when it is used as primary strategy and killer simply ignores hooking survivors.
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Slugging had a decent counter with OG buckle up now its worth crap.
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PetTheDoggoMember Posts:4505:38PMJust no,I am not fully against antislugging mechanic, but it should work only in early game to prevent killers using slugging as main strategy.Sure, you can go with basekit unbreakable, but put some limitations on it, so it can't be used mid game and definetly not late game.I believe slugging has place in this game and it is needed tool for the killer, it's issue only when it is used as primary strategy and killer simply ignores hooking survivors.
Yea you have players who start slugging from start because the only good counter is SWF teams. They bank on playing solo which makes solo player terrible.0 -
The only proper counters being through perks isn't a great idea, it means you have to run those perks every game just in case.
…Though, OG Buckle Up was terrible, I'm not sure what you're referring to here.
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Pre-patch gave both players endurance now it gives a weak haste which fast killers can still out chase.
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Oh, right, gotcha. The OG version of Buckle Up was not that, for the record, it was a mostly worthless aura colour change to show how progressed someone's recovery was and some aura reading after pickup.
To be honest, the scenarios where Buckle Up worked aren't really the ones I'm looking to address here.
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Half the pressure from slugging is the slugging itself the other half is the threat of slugging to then snowball into a win.
Killers like twins, and oni who are basically built to slug to get max power value aren't eating good. Theres almost no reason to heal against twins anymore just cross the map and make it too much of a slog to hook you and they get 1:5th of the value they currently get. Oni gets punished for taking long on his second chase or even going after a second chase.
Killers like Wesker and singularity get punished for hooking because the power decays down or goes away so removing slugging just removes an avenue to win with them
Freddy is on the way and people already are assuming slugging is gonna be the way to go because he is ok otherwise but only really great for slugging
Survivors should be scared to stay injured against killers who can put them on the ground and keep them there, with no threat to a person being slugged and the assumption that the killer now basically has to always hook you there is no threat, there is no peril to most actions and gamestates. No real threat of putting them on the ground quickly and keeping them there less time bought from survivors healing.
Yeah sure you can "slug" but you can't slug and win off bad survivor plays it just babyproofs the game with no meaningful buffs to the killers it drastically impacts and no buff to the overall state of killer that now loses one of the 3 best pressure / game winning strategies because survivors don't like using their 16 perk slots or playing as a team.
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The killer can't force a survivor to pick themselves off the ground, to trigger the extra 20 seconds wiggle time. And the killer really can't be expected to just stand over the slugged survivor while their teammates repair generators. The killer will have to leave the slugged survivor, at which point the survivor gets their base kit unbreakable, even though the killer was forced to slug.
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See this is why Solo Q vs SWF are a thing. SWF they can tell players killer is slugging and work on gens harder. SOLO Q you have 3 morsels drop gens and even if one drops gen working Slugging becomes an auto win.
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only way to make anti slug not horribly busted and abuseable would be to make it so aurvivor can hook themselves after being slugged if they want
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I feel like I have to point out that 45 seconds is a pretty long time by DBD standards, you'd absolutely still have the chance to snowball off a down.
Sure, it'd get harder for any of these killers to knock down everyone in a single power activation, but as long as you actually know where survivors are and aren't wandering around aimlessly during the timer, you can absolutely get a second survivor knocked down with plenty of time to spare for hooking.
Or, y'know, you can get greedier and go for more downs. The first guy's probably picked up by then, but they were off generators for 45 seconds and they're still injured at this point, so you're hardly in a bad position there. As long as you're hooking someone and not trying to just get everyone on the ground at once, this system can be worked around pretty easily.
I don't think it's a bad thing to curtail someone's ability to win off a single power activation, that seems like a kinda questionable thing to be in the game to me.
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If the other survivors are doing generators it implies only this one player is trying to do unhookable stuff, and I'm okay with them running around doing that while I pressure their teammates, personally.
I'm not saying unhookable stuff doesn't need some adjustments in its own right, to be clear, there shouldn't be as many places you can go down to make yourself really hard to hook as there are. I'm just saying this system won't make it any worse and even offers an answer to a good number of those scenarios.
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Look, A beggar do not choose. if you dont want to bleed out with your friends then you have to adhere to some of the killers demands to make our play more fun. We get punished so much by hooking you guys. Or you will continue to bleed out. Do you think the Survivors in North Korea negotiate rules with kim jong ?
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The killer is not punished for hooking, that's not how any of this works.
This post isn't because I don't want to be slugged, I don't personally see slugging in all that many of my survivor games. This post is because I think excessive slugging can be a little unbalanced, and because I know a lot of other people find it a lot more boring than I do.
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The immediate problem I see is how do you circumvent the problem of survivors going down under a pallet?
The main reason why Unbreakable basekit was a problem is survivors didn't have to get to the survivor to save them, they could hover in relative safety and basically put Killers in a situation where they can't pick up just by being nearby. This means instead of moving to save the survivor, they merely have to stall the killer long enough for them to use Unbreakable, and there is nothing here I can see to prevent that issue.
I don't think you can solve the aggressive slugging problem with Unbreakable period. It's effect is too much of a counter to genuine instances where the Killer is forced to slug, and most instances of slugging are the result of survivors allowing it to happen as part of normal gameplay.
The actual issue of aggressive slugging to my mind is survivors move at 0.7m/s and can't get apart efficiently after being slugged.
As an example, if you get slugged under hook for example, you're under hook, you can't move away quickly to get to a position to be saved. It's also the same if say killer catches a survivor trying to save.
This isn't an element of the game I feel should be removed (if you get slugged under hook or slugged trying for a save, that's on you and you should be punished), however this same issue is the same for aggressive slugging. Survivors can't get to places other survivors can reasonably save them effectively, the killer can slug and slug and slug, and keep returning to the places a survivor was last at, until enough mistakes are made/resources are burnt to eventually get everyone.
To my mind, the way you stop aggressive slugging, is you make it so survivors CAN slip away to a place of relative safety, where they aren't easy to track down and slug again, where they can effectively reset.
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That's why I uncoupled the recovery timer from the pickup timer, specifically because of survivors going down under a pallet.
If you're the killer in that scenario, you basically have two things you're gonna try and do, depending on context- and to be clear I mean right now, not with this hypothetical change, this is how survivors being slugged under a pallet works in the current state of the game.
The first thing you'd try and do is down the person lingering for a save, since that's an obvious snowball. If you have some kind of instadown, if the survivor's already injured, if you're confident in your ability to catch up and get a second hit, you'd want to down the first survivor. With my change, you'd just have a time limit to do that of 45 (or possibly longer, I'm not married to that number specifically) seconds to get the down, which might just push you towards option two as a worst case scenario.
The second thing you'd have as an option and, in my opinion, the far more common one, is just to push the lingering survivor far enough away that they can't get back in position for a save when you move to pick up. This already takes considerably less time than 45 seconds, so this one's basically unchanged.
In both scenarios here, knowing survivors can pick themselves up after a delay will affect your decisionmaking but won't meaningfully take that decision away, you still have two solid options depending on context.
As an aside, the reason that Unbreakable basekit was a problem on that PTB is because the self pickup perks were buffed, not the basekit feature itself. That feature gave you enough time to chase survivors away, or even secure a second down if you're in a position to. The problem was that Unbreakable itself made the self pickup extremely fast, alongside a few other tools. That PTB being the way it was is something I was heavily considering while I was drafting this post, I wanted to avoid the problems that cropped up there.
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I'm sorry if I'm being stupid, but that is exactly the problem I'm describing... none of this works because of the fact the killer is on a time limit, and especially because of Background Player... but even if BGP wasn't there, it basically comes down to map structure.
The killer is on a time limit to pick up... a survivor nearby means they can't pick up, they MUST push them off, and if there is a decent tile nearby, like a TL wall or something, the saving survivor can effectively loop the killer while stayimg nearby to the slugged survivor.
We might think "oh we can push them off and mind game them vaulting and go for the pick up" (which is a gamble itself), but even if we pull it off, there is always the possibility of another survivor being there to make the save... and again this survivor doesn't have to play risky to get there, they can wait in safety for Unbreakable as a backup... and run in if needed, the killer doesn't have time to check... and this extra survivor can also come with their own BGP...
The mere fact this is possible means the killer can't pick up in this scenario, but they then can't slug either because of basekit Unbreakable... Of course, this can all happen already, but the difference is, it happens once... whereas if it's basekit survivors can employ this strategy at every single pallet, and do it over and over and over again...we now have a big problem....how do you stop 3 players swarming you?
The entire point of slugging is meant to be a means of forcing survivors to leave out of risk of giving the killer monster pressure if they manage to successfully slug 3 players trying to impede them. With basekit Unbreakable this can't happen, and survivors can continually bully killers around pallets with no method of stopping them other than a hex.
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Well, there's always going to be some risk of the survivors getting a save, of course. Especially if there's multiple nearby as you get the down- it shouldn't really be guaranteed that they can't push you into a bad situation, the more survivors they dedicate to this should raise the chance that they'll succeed because they're giving up generator pressure to do it, which is a pretty favourable trade for the killer. Bluntly, the answer to "how do you stop 3 players swarming you" is "you don't, and you celebrate that they're doing it".
I'm chiefly concerned with the ability for one extra survivor to push you into that kind of gameplay, and in my experience it just doesn't work out all that often that you're powerless. You chase them away, loop back around, pick up on the same side of the pallet as them, then the risk of them getting a save on you is very low. This works against current Unbreakable which is noticeably faster than what I'm suggesting.
Every once in a while you'll probably just eat a pallet stun because the survivors had a good setup, that's how it goes. I don't think survivors can engineer that at every pallet, though, not even close. It requires very specific tiles, both in the sense that the pallet the slugged survivor is beneath needs to be one you can get all the way around very quickly and the surrounding tiles need to be strong enough that you can stay nearby with little risk of the killer downing you quickly.
Even the two worst case scenarios really aren't that big of a deal, either, if you think about it.
Example one of a worst case scenario: The survivors successfully get a pallet save. While that can be game-swinging, a lot of the time it's a setback you can return from. You've gotten rid of a pallet and there are two survivors nearby, things could be a lot worse. This is the actual worst case scenario, too.
Example two of a (slightly less but still worth talking about) worst case scenario: You commit to chasing the second survivor away for too long and the first survivor picks themselves up. You've successfully kept two survivors occupied for over 45 seconds, and you're either in position to down the second survivor soon or you're close enough to down the first survivor again. You can fumble this, obviously, but it offers you plenty of opportunities to respond otherwise.
All scenarios I can think of at worst give you options to respond and won't lose you the game immediately, and most of them are just flat out good for you.
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Every once in a while you'll probably just eat a pallet stun because the survivors had a good setup, that's how it goes. I don't think survivors can engineer that at every pallet, though, not even close
But they can... you're ignoring Background Player, and even Sprint Burst. Maybe Fire Up can help, and Hex:Blood Favour (with all the usual hex problems), but it's still on survivors to screw it up… they can tag team the threat against you from mutual safety... I don't see why this problem is invisible to you...
Let me ask, have you ever played Ghost Face and been bum rushed by survivors for saves? Even you play this well, it still takes quite some time. You hold this opinion you can catch survivors trying to save really fast and still get your hook... how many seconds does the average down take through both health states as an m1 killer? 30s? 40s? 80s? How much time just to walk back to your down? Basically we're making it so the killer has to injure 3 survivors at least before they can even start trying to pick up? Ironically we're kinda forcing the killer to slug to prevent them from slugging... the only difference being the killer loses at the end…
I mean you do realise that for killers without high lethality, you're screwed right? Survivors can just do this over and over and over again and there is nothing you can do to stop it if you dont have an m2 killer. If you don't have a power that can down survivors quickly, your killer is fodder to pallet saves...
The complete inability to effectively slug in this scenario, means survivors can bully vast majority of m1 killers, they can literally tag team run back and forth and just the time it takes you to walk in a line behind them means you're losing your down, and probably getting little or nothing for it in return.
I agree with the sentiment of what you're trying to do, but this looks to me as someone who tends to play C and D tiers, like my hands are completely tied and I can only hope my opponents are idiots who don't know how to exploit this.
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If you're playing a killer without lethality or mobility, and the survivor is healthy, you wouldn't be going for the down anyway in my experience. You'd be looking to harass them away, then pick up.
I have been bum rushed for saves by multiple survivors as low lethality killers. Oftentimes, they do get the save, but only because they're throwing the match to do it. You're describing a "bully squad" type situation, where all the team is nearby and trying to get saves, and it's not like they win matches against someone that's just a little patient.
For every other scenario, as an M1 killer, you'd just harass them away and loop back around to get the pickup while they're too far away to get to the other side of the loop. Nothing about my suggestions here would change that, it's the same situation that it'd always be.
They don't need to be that far away for them not to be able to get the save under normal conditions. Something like BGP would help, sure, but that's… what it's supposed to do. It's supposed to make saves possible in scenarios where they wouldn't otherwise be, that's the intent of bringing the perk. That's not really a flaw with this system so much as it is a perk existing that makes pickups difficult-but-not-impossible because the survivor going for the save is faster than normal. It still heavily depends on the pallet whether they can get all the way around it for the save, though— if the pallet's in a jungle gym or in shack, for example, there's no way they're getting all the way around it in time even with something like BGP or Sprint Burst.
There's always a risk, but this system doesn't really heighten that risk all that much, at least as far as I can see without testing. 45 seconds is enough time to harass someone away and get back to the slug— again, that works against current Unbreakable, and that's quicker than 45 seconds.
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I've already highlighted that it's possible to stall a killer like this with current Unbreakable... it's already something that can completely swing the games momentum to the survivor side... but what you're opting for is being able to do this repeatedly.
So explain to me... you're an m1 killer, you've chased your first survivor, get your down under a pallet maybe after... 60s or so. You see someone going for a save, you push them off with an injury... great... took you what? Another 25s to get there, hit them and come back?
Can you pick up? No... someone else might be close, you've got to check, you see another survivor hovering nearby who has probably moved over after you've started your chase on the 2nd survivor, so you've got to push the 3rd off too. They have a good structure nearby and run to it, you ain't a dummy, you drop chase and come back within 10 seconds. First injured survivor is seen coming back so, you still can't pick up... what do you do?
Do you commit to them? Probably should, but now your slug is about to pop Unbreakable... you can't switch to the 3rd survivor, they're in safety... if you leave the downed survivor, you lose them, and if you go after the injured survivor you've got to reach them before the reach safety... if you can't... you have literally nothing.
You've lost this exchange, a gen has popped in the background from the 4th survivor, at least 1 more is well on it's way for progress, and you STILL don't even have a hook. What is your choice? What should you have done different?
In DBD current, this scenario is a one off, that can only happen if the first survivor has Unbreakable. This isn't a common occurrence because a lot of things have to align for it to happen. With your changes, this becomes the standard way this plays out. The survivors haven't really done anything, yet they've completely denied your hook by just standing around.
You acknowledge how game swinging this can be... but yet you want to make this a default interaction that happens every game, and multiple times in a game? That's busted dude... no matter how you slice it.
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I like the enthusiasm but we should start with
Survivors can now pick themselves up after 45 seconds has elapsed and they have reached 95% recoveryand have BHVR work it out from there. I think too complex demands usually never gets through.
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Alright, let's tackle this hypothetical!
The first thing to note is, obviously, this is a very, very specific variation on the normal interaction you'd expect to see here because you've got two survivors lingering around, not one. That already colours this scenario and affects how we talk about it, both in the sense that it meaningfully changes the options and in the sense that it's much more of an academic hypothetical instead of a realistic expectation.
Now, from there, let's look at answering what the killer should be doing here. I'll start by noting that you specify "push away with an injury" but you really don't have to commit to an injury specifically, you just need the survivor to be a certain distance away from the slug. I can't give you hard numbers for that distance, but just far enough that they'd have to run behind you for a good few seconds to even catch up to you.
From there, we notice our third survivor lingering for the save. At this point, we should be realising that this suddenly isn't a gamble to pick this one survivor up, this is a gamble to get as much value out of the favourable position the survivors have handed us as possible. This is a very aggressive SWF, so we should be looking to capitalise on that confidence and altruism.
Let's say for the sake of argument that survivor 3 here is too close for us to pick up, which I'll note isn't guaranteed and then move on with the assumption. From here, we'll acknowledge that survivor 1 is pretty likely to pick themselves up; that's fine, we're already getting about as much out of this scenario as we would if we'd just hooked them straight away.
I can't give as much of a play by play here because there are a lot of ways this could go, but the basic idea is this: They're all intentionally grouping themselves around this one pallet, and one of them is going to be out of position at some point. If survivor 1 picks themselves up, you can down them again outside that pallet, and if survivors 2 or 3 run closer to you to try and get you away from the pallet, that brings them out of position.
You are not losing this exchange if a gen pops. One guy is doing gens and you're occupying three of the others, you will come out ahead here. The gens have been stalled pretty heavily and you still do get a hook out of this. You just have to be patient and capitalise on your opponents putting themselves out of position.
As a final note… this is not the default interaction that'll play out multiple times a match. Even the more realistic version of this where someone's downed under a pallet and a second survivor is lingering nearby isn't something that happens every game, getting an actual coordinated team that try to deny pickups in this specific way is significantly less common than that.
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You're running with current DBD logic though. You're saying it isn't a common scenario, and you'd be right... in current DBD.
However if you make this change, this is now basekit, all survivors know about this basekit mechanic and their playstyles adapt to compensate, even in soloQ.
Whenever a killer gets a down, you only need 1 player nearby, 2 people on gens. 1 player nearby means the killer can't pick up and has to push them off. It's at this moment the third player comes off gens.
The point you keep missing is survivors do not have to do anything dangerous to stall you. Weakly lingering nearby is a strong enough deterrent to prevent you from picking up... and the reason this doesn't happen now is the survivors have a big risk that comes with it, because they can be slugged... in your variant they can't be slugged, there is no danger to playing this way... even if you somehow manage to slug all 3 of them... who cares? They have basekit Unbreakable, you probably can't even hook all 3 before one of them gets up even if you get a 3 man Bubba chainsaw.
Once the Unbreakable is up, they throw the pallet, and you have to chase again. If you manage to down them without them reaching a pallet, great... but if you don't... this scenario just repeats.
You've basically made it so that every down goes under pallet, and your actual hook is off the first survivor who comes to save. Hopefully you down them before the slugged survivor is back up so you can hook, because if you can't, this scenario just repeats.
If you can never advance your killer objective, it doesn't matter that only 1 survivor is on gens, because YOU CAN'T HOOK. This interaction happens again and again... you can't stop it, every interaction goes this way, cause there is simply no threat to survivors if you can't hook them.
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You keep saying you can't slug, but you can. You have 45 seconds, more than enough time to push one guy away.
A third survivor coming off gens only works if that gen is very close to the action, otherwise the travel time would be too long to get there before the pickup starts. Remember, you're not committing to chasing the first guy properly, just forcing them to run away for a second or two.
Weakly lingering nearby is not a deterrent to picking up, is the thing. The survivor actually has to be able to get a save in order to be a threat, so if they're not super close and you can put yourself between them and the pallet… just pick up. They can't do anything about it even if they run at you, they have to be able to get the pallet dropping prompt or have clear line of sight to blind you.
There have been plenty of times in the past where I see a survivor lingering nearby, I know they can't do anything, so I just pick up. They run at me, they fail to get the save, sometimes they drop the pallet anyway which is kinda funny, and the game moves on. Survivors just "being nearby" doesn't matter unless they can also get in position for a save in the time it takes for you to pick up a survivor.
Sometimes, sure, I get hit unexpectedly. It happens. You'll always be at risk of sometimes getting hit out of nowhere by a survivor you didn't see or that had a perk you didn't expect. If you do see them, though, knowing a survivor can pick themselves up after a long delay doesn't make pickups impossible at all.
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You know damn well it's far too complex for these devs (no offense), I would like a small buff to crawling speed, like the david tapp perk it feels much better being slugged with this, and recovering/moving at the same time
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I was confused by this because survivors can go through your hitbox... and the search for that led me to this:
I thought this was a feature... but maybe it's a bug? So your point has more validity.
I'm still veheremently against basekit Unbreakable, I feel a variation of basekit Tenacity to make it away from the site you are slugged at is the way to go to address aggressive slugging.
However with the context that's a bug, your suggestion at least makes more sense.
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…Huh. I didn't know about that bug, I don't think anyone's actually used it against me any time recently at least.
I think that is a bug because I'm also pretty sure I remember survivors running uselessly into me while I was picking up survivors, yeah. Glad we reached some common ground, at least! We can agree to disagree from there, I think.
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To be fair I'm always quite paranoid about pallet saves cause I thought this was normal... So I can't really say for sure if this is still a thing or not either cause I don't tend to take the risk, and I can't think of a recent example where someone ran through me to do it xD
Aye, good discussion that man! 😁🤘
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Correction: Your system offers an answer to a good number of scenarios FOR SURVIVORS, but barely helps killers at all.
You give survivors a huge buff, that automatically triggers on its own…. but the one buff you give killers requires the survivor team to make a specific event, which they can decide to delay as much as they want.
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