General Discussions
General Discussions
BHVR Design W
Whilst I do not know how it will play, the SM Rework is promising at the very least.
I appreciate that they've decided to do a full rework and admit that current SM is a failed concept. She can never be strong and be enjoyable to play against. That doesn't make anyone happy, and I am glad to see that they are choosing to prioritize the players.
Adding a Global Detection is a cool idea and does fit with the power. They should probably give her some sort of Haste bonus, at least out of chase, to allow her to capitalize on it.
I like that Drones have a skill element to them now, both in their placement and usage as soft Area Denial/Info versus Active Damage.
Removing the bloat and unintuitive nature of her kit is excellent.
I'd like a little bit of a harsher penalty for failing a Hack.
I think I'd like to see some form of Undetectable return when she first enters a Drone's Radius, but not for remaining within its radius. Make it like, 6 seconds or so and I think I'd be cool with it.
Comments
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If she is to have Undetectable in her kit, maybe it should be during the Global Detection, to play up her theme as a meticulous hunter that tracks her targets and attacks when they least expect her. Similar to Dredge's Nightfall but with more tracking and less darkness.
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Not a bad idea!
I worry that Haste and Undetectable is too much, but alone they feel a little weaker than I'd like.
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No one is ever going to fail a hack in its current state, and I imagine the drones will control like crap for how easy they should be to hit in theory (think houndmaster).
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The only problems I see with the SM rework is that, 1. Reading about the Global Detection thing just sounds like it's going to do the square root of nothing, like seeing people across the map is nice, but practically useless on a M1 killer with no mobility. I can see it being useful if you see someone in a area with a Drone but besides that I just feel its going to do nothing.
The second problem is that people are still, inevitably, going to whine and complain about SM because they still have Chess Merchant PTSD and don't read patch notes, I genuinely hope this is the final version BHVR settles on regardless of the community's opinion because she's been through 3 versions now in the span of almost 2 years and I am just sick of the endless cycle of SM getting changed, people that don't read the patch notes insta-DCing and complaining on Twitter, causing her killrate to go through the roof and for BHVR to nerf her.
Please BHVR, just settle on this version for like 2 years and never change her beyond bug fixes, the joke was funny the first time and it stopped being funny literal months ago2 -
"I imagine"
We don't know.
Hacking can get interrupted, also, not everyone is a god-tier player. If you'd prefer the mini-game simply be removed, just say that.
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The mini game is fine, but it shouldn't reward aura reading on the killer on top of disabling the drone. Yes, not everyone is a god-tier player but only killers are expected to be when it comes to balance and character design
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For stealth Ive always wanted her to have a sort of crouching ability that grants her Undetectable, and a leaping ability. Maybe while crouched she pulls out her radar to get that global detection, so she gets info and stealth at the cost of mobility
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How so? There are plenty of easy Killers. There are even strong Killers that aren't mechanically intensive. Killer is the easier role, at the moment.
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Not gonna list every killer but anyways, playing on console. So Houndmaster, the hitbox on the dog is tiny and you get a really small window to try to hit the survivor on the redirect. Very difficult to use her power against good survivors and also trying to get the search function to point at the appropriate gen is jank. Oh and if you manage to land the power they can just drop the pallet on the dog and you got nothing.
Unknown. You get a whopping 1.5 - 2 second window to be able to hit a good survivor after landing your first UVX shot. It's excruciatingly punishing to miss you're better off playing as an M1 with a teleport against people that know how to dodge it. Plus collision is in no way consistent in this game.
Oni. Vulnerable to FoV techs, can't flick
Pyramid Head. Super telegraphed power, easy to dodge, very clunky to use, you're better off just faking your power constantly against good survivors.
Xenomorph. The tail prioritizes hitting the environment. Terribly punishing when you miss. Constantly get burned out of your power which is super unfun.
Chucky - Awfully slow, laughs all the time which ruins his stealth, can't flick and can't get hits with scamper because the survivor just needs to move an inch out of the way
Spirit. Iron Will is meta and sounds are so jank that you can't hear anything most of the time
I could go on. There's also auto aim and getting spun that screws console killers even harder that you have to deal with. Killers that are easy to play that are decent are like Wraith, Clown, Wesker, Plague. The 2nd iteration of Skull Merchant before they absolutely dumpstered was super solid because she was a strong killer that was easy to play on console but we can't have a really strong killer that's easy to play, survivors won't have fun0 -
there are only 3 trap killers in the game.
there is only 1 trap + stealth killer in the game.
this rework will remove one trap killer, and the only trap+stealth killer, from the game.
to put this into perspective, there are 38 killers in the game right now. the 39th killer is going to be a dash killer. the 38th killer is a projectile killer. the 37th killer is a dash + projectile killer. the 36th killer is a projectile killer. the 35th killer is a projectile killer. the 34th killer is a dash killer. the 33rd killer is a projectile killer. the 32nd killer is a projectile killer. the 31st killer is skull merchant.
the previous trap killer before skull merchant was hag. hag was 24 killers before skull merchant.
let that sink in. 39 killers, and 3 of them are trap killers. of those 3 killers, skull merchant is the only one that doesn't need to camp basement or hooked survivors or generators. she is the only modern, successful trap killer in the entire roster.
the problem is that the dbd developers don't make trap killers, and when they do, the survivors are too out of practice to handle a modern trap killer.
no matter how you slice it, that's a bonafide BHVR Design L.
it is the developers' faults that survivors are so out of practice against slower, methodical killers. it is the developers' fault for not including more slow, methodical killers. it is the developers' fault for pivoting away from trap killers and towards constant chase and twitch reflexes and dash/projectile killers.
skull merchant deserves to exist. i don't care if you hate her sexy walk or whatever. she is totally unique. and she demands you change your strategy to suit her counterplay. skill issue and Ls around if you can't, but that should not be her problem, and she does not deserve to die because the developers refuse to add more trap killers, or because the survivors refuse to crouch and turn off her drones.
you know what would be a great skull merchant rework? if the next 4 killers were all trap killers, and survivors had to slow down and think about their gameplay, and everyone had to learn how to deal with trap killers again. and then she wouldn't NEED a rework.
funniest thing imaginable is if the fnaf chapter comes out and they invent a dash power for that killer. instead of the killer being a stealh trapper with a jumpscare the way a fnaf killer should be.
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oh man don't tease me. i would love a spider themed killer that leaves a big web in its wake, and gets killer instinct on survivors that trip the web, and maybe it can cocoon survivors instead of hooking them.
absolutely horrifying, would be such a treat. hey developers, if you need an idea to do something that isn't reworking skull merchant…
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I agree. Compared to her current design, this sounds much more thought out and developed. It's refreshing to see transparency like this from the devs in regards to trashing her old design, though naturally those that did like old Merchant are understandably pissed.
Hopefully a W can come from this in the end.
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As someone who played on Console and tried their best to get fixes (and had the longest thread here to boot), here's my rebuttal.
I have no opinion on HM. I did not play her. I also did not really play Unknown at all, so I will not comment on them.
Oni ~ You should not be getting FoV tech'd. You can up your FoV now, it is not difficult to play around. The real issue with Oni is his lack of meaningful flicks on Console. Other than that, he is still very strong and can be played somewhat easily.
PH ~ Never put a ton of time into him, but you can absolutely flick with his power on Console for some reason. Once you figure him out, his Power becomes pretty devastating. His Cages aren't good, but they'd be kinda OP if you were getting them all the time.
Xeno ~ Put some time into him. Tail was interesting, I enjoyed the smaller hitbox. I liked that I could drag it over higher walls. Killers should be punished for missing, and if you recall, Xeno was not for quite some time.
Chucky ~ Latest nerfs were odd. Only played him briefly when he released.
Spirit ~ Spirit was meta when Iron Will, DS, DH and UB was meta. I highly doubt that has changed. Somehow, she will endure. She's still very strong.
Auto aim is ass, getting spun is usually a skill issue. Usually. Sometimes auto-aim will get you there too.
Wraith, Billy, Huntress, Freddy, Clown, Spirit, Plague, Oni, Blight, Nemesis, Pinhead, Artist, Wesker and Singu are all Killers I have played extensively on Console and can vouch for their viability against good players.
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OR
You accept that the design was a failure on multiple levels.
It is not a design conducive to supporting a viable Killer.
It is not a design conducive to promoting fun and engaging Survivor gameplay.
It is not a design conducive to encouraging meaningful interactions between Killers and Survivors.
It sucks that BHVR didn't make a decent trap Killer, but them admitting they messed up and being willing to go back to the drawing board is a good thing. Changing her so that she can be more viable and not be cheeks to go against is 100% undeniably a good thing.
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Past is past .. Lets look ahead..
Do you really agree on the part with aura reading for disabeling a drone?
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Aura-reading is a little harsh but maybe a Haste boost would be more appropriate?
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Well.. I said in in other threads before but.. Survivors do get nothing for disabeling other stuff like Trappers traps, Hags traps, Demos portals, Unknowns clones; .. Why is there a need to get something here? It's already denying here the ability to use her "dash" ..
But .. Ok .. Lets play the "what if?" ..
A Survivor wouldn't hack a Drone in front of you, so the haste wouldn't be of any use, right? .. I honestly couldn't think of anything atm that would be useful without being busted - even less deserved. Denying a power should be reward enough, imho
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SM 2.0 was viable. And what is fun and engaging is subjective. Personally, I like going up against trap killers, SM included, while I dislike going up against Huntress, who seems to be a very popular killer to face. I cannot claim my view is the only one that matters and demand Huntress change from a ranged killer to a trap based one just because I don't find it as engaging.
I think most people didn't give SM 2.0 a fair chance after her rework, and if they did and learned the counterplay and maybe even played her a bit to get a better grasp on what she can do, they may have found her more enjoyable to go up against than they expected.3 -
The community at large found SM 2.0 unpleasant to go against and wildly overpowered.
Was she objectively? Not for me to say.
Not sure you want to bring subjectivity into a debate about SM's rework, as most of the community seemingly would rather she was gone entirely.
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There were two issues with the second rework for her.
One was she still had the ability to lock a 3 gen down. The drones could be overlapped three times. Leading to stalls for the most part and only groups on comms being able to do much about it.
Two was you couldnt reasonably do anything about drones even with a designated person disarming them. She would just replace them faster than anyone could get rid of them. Which is a bit different from trapper and hag in this regard.
So matches ended up, even after the 8 kick regress limit, of a 3 gen hold, everyone injured from lock-on. And slug within the radius.2 -
I heavily disagree on the overpowered part. She was strong, but nowhere near the likes of Wesker, Nurse, Spirit, Blight, ect.
But personally I don't think she was a failure of a design. I think her first iteration just tainted peoples viewpoints too much for them to truly give her a chance. You can still work on what people find frustrating about her design without having to completely throw her out and make her another dash killer, especially when we have been getting so many of them as it is.
And if I'm honest, at this point (assuming this rework goes through) she is fundamentally a different killer, so if she was removed and I was given a refund it wouldn't be any different than what is happening now.1 -
I mean, she had a 70% Kill Rate. That's overpowered by the definition.
Making a Killer that is near universally reviled is generally considered a failure of design. I am really not sure what else you'd call it.
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Hacking needs to be more challenging. Its WAY to easy to do in its current state.
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Killer is the easier role
And just like that you stopped being based
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Her first iteration was unfair as hell, undetectable nearly perma. Expose, nearly perma, killer instinct nearly perma.
Theres no way anyone thought it was just people giving up attributing to it.
And 30-40 minute matches, anyone downvoting this is just pure cope at this point. Everyone knows this was unbalanced. The fact that a coordinated team got to this amount of time on several occasions.
Tournament level players were held hostage in maps by this AFTER the 8 regress limit change. So you're just not accepting facts at this point.Post edited by ChuckingWong on5 -
Considering a lot of people I played with and against just gave up against her, whether that was going afk or killing themselves on hook, I think it is hard to accurately look at her kill rate. I know BHVR said first hook deaths were fairly low, but most people got rescued and would go afk, so I am not too sure how accurate her kill rates can be. Again, I genuinely think it more of a problem of people not seriously giving her a chance and learning.
Also, when Legion was released they were also universally reviled, yet they managed to change Legion without absolutely gutting their identity, and the same can be said for Knight. I think the same can be done with SM, people just need to give her a shot and actually play against her.4 -
that version is long dead. she's actually been the new version for longer than she was that version. why are we still talking about chess merchant?
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I dunno ask cosmic they brought it up
And even defended it. Not surprisingly
Chess merchant for everyones information
Patched out 8.3 (to our current merchant)
Gen regress limit 7.5
It happened up until our current merchant. If you want a video of a chess merchant after the regress limit and holding hostage tournament teams, ill post it.Post edited by BoxGhost on-1 -
Because admitting that pre-gutted Merchant wasn't actually that good and didn't deserve what happened goes against the narrative they have fabricated.
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someone is going to have the highest kill rate, and the developers want it to sit around 65%. last i checked, when you are dealing with 'how many survivors are killed, 0-4', 65% and 70% are pretty dang similar in terms of result.
65% of 4 is 2.6
70% of 4 is 2.8
wow, skull merchant is killing an entire .2 survivors above average. clearly overpowered. nothing at all to do with people going next at the first inconvenience.
quick question - what does .2 survivors actually mean? is that like, dwight crawled out the gate instead of walking out injured? or is it actually as whollely irrelevant as it appears?
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Some people can't look past that version and project that version onto the current/2.0 SM. I get it was awful to play against, but, like you said, it has been gone for so long now and it plays nothing like her current/2.0 iteration.
I still see people to this day complain about SM only being used to hold 3 gens, when she is honestly pretty bad at it now.0 -
"Killer is the easier role, at the moment" is what I actually said.
Contrary to popular belief, there is such a thing as nuance. Perhaps you'd like to elaborate on what I said that was incorrect?
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They said that those games made up something like 2% of her overall KR. Either way, when you have a community that refuses to play against a Killer in any circumstance, that's a HUGE issue.
No, they definitely gutted Legion. He got dumpstered for YEARS and had his entire original playstyle removed from the game.
It was necessary to allow the character to just be annoying and not hated. I wish they would have actually fully reworked them, but they chose not to and damned Legion to being mid for all eternity.
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Killer is the easier role
I mean it absolutely is. Dont see why there is any point of contention there.Game would be almost impossible to play if that wasnt true.
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Pretty sure they want 60%, so yes, it is significant.
I can only imagine the outrage if KR's were on average 40% and someone said, "Well, they are supposed to be 50% and 10% isn't a big deal." It's a huge deal.
70% KR means two Survivors will always die and a 3rd is almost guaranteed. That means almost all SM games ended in a 3K + Hatch.
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Yea the changes that she saw along with the dev notes EXPLAINING why they changed things dont suggest it was
"Just because people gave up all the time"
The devs have the numbers on this stuff so to believe in this vast conspiracy that SM was nerfed because people just gave up all the time is insane.
What didnt need to happen in the mean time with this silly change at 8.3 was 1 scan line. 2 scan lines should have stayed.0 -
The 2% was exclusively from people who killed themselves on first hook, but like I said, I noticed a LOT more people getting rescued then just afking, far more than those that just managed to kill themselves on first hook. That is just my experience though, so it is really impossible to know where her kill rates would be at if people actually tried.
And I don't think it is healthy for the survivors to have the power to just force a rework on a killer just by killing themselves on hook. It sets a horrible precedent, where if you don't like a killer you should just ######### so they are more likely to be changed. I dislike huntress, so should I kill myself on hook so maybe she gets reworked into a different killer? It's far more unhealthy for the game to have things like this happen than have a killer some people don't want to learn to play against.
Legions identity of being a chase killer who runs fast and stabs people is still there though, with this change SM loses the trap/info/stealth gameplay she had and becomes a dash killer. It is a FAR more drastic change and departure than Legion had, who only had a comparatively minor gameplay change while keeping the core identity there.-5 -
Perhaps they did try, and she was OP. Perhaps she was not. We do not know and we can only make judgments off of what BHVR has given us.
So we should ignore the only time in this game's history where almost everyone has universally hated a Killer? So much that the hatred has persisted to this day? So much that Killer mains and Survivors mains both united in their derision of a particular Killer? Just because you main SM doesn't mean you need to defend her. You can acknowledge faults in her design. Regardless, you really think we should ignore the largest outcry of negativity the game has ever seen simply because you like the Killer???? Surely not.
Legion was originally a single-target rush-down Killer, much like Myers. Yes, he had the option to go for multiple targets, but going for a single target was his strongest play. With his rework, that was completely removed. To go along with that, he received massive number nerfs to his entire power. He waited YEARS for another rework which brought him out of D-tier and into C-tier.
SM is still a trap-based Killer, so far as I can tell. Just because you don't like it doesn't mean you need to be disingenuous
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no matter how you slice it, that's a bonafide BHVR Design L.Why?
A simple counter argument is that trap killers are incredibly hard to design in a way that creates good matches for both killers and survivors and that most players don't want the type of game you think the devs should be forcing them into.
65% and 70% are pretty dang similar in terms of result.Across a data sample as large as what BHVR has, 5% is massive.
Also, different devs have given different targets it was 60% for a while, then 60 to 65% with a goal of 62.5%, either way this would put a 70% way outside the ideal goal range.
Again, I genuinely think it more of a problem of people not seriously giving her a chance and learning.For a moment, let's presume you're absolutely correct,
This is a far more significant problem than her being unbalanced. That's the players (consumers) saying they hate the product. It doesn't matter how much the developer likes the product or objectively thinks it is okay, if the players aren't going to engage with it, then it must be changed. What possible method would you suggest BHVR implement that could get people to reconsider their views?
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You are calling me disingenuous while saying she is a trap killer? In what possible way is she a trap killer after these changes? If she is a trap killer then so are the Twins. She sets up a drone that gives a notification if people go near it, very similar to Victor, then switches to that drone and chases the survivor, charges up to dash into them, damages them. Exactly like the Twins, so unless you want to start calling the Twins a trap killer I would suggest that you stop being disingenuous yourself.
And the only time a killer was nearly universally hated? Knight, Sadako, Legion. All of them got changes without gutting the killer's core identity. You can try and say that Legion is different now, but his CORE IDENTITY as a fast chase killer who stabs is still there. You can even still go after a single target, and some people still play him in that way, using his power to get a hit, catching up, ending power, and hitting again.
You can try and get a killer deleted from the game because you don't like them, but again, it sets a terrible precedent for the game.-1 -
Im excited for it just on the 2 scan lines coming back alone.
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Focus on the issues people have a problem with, which generally seems to be the haste/hinder, and shift her power budget elsewhere like they did with the Knight. There is no need to fundamentally change the killer from a trap/stealth/info killer into a dashing killer.
I'm not even against a rework, I just want her to keep her identity as a trap/stealth/info killer. It is what makes her fun and unique, and we really don't need another dash killer when we have so many options for those as it is.-3 -
And there it is.
She still has to set-up her Drones. Still needs to place them around the map. Curious.
Speaking of disingenuous…. there is a HUGE difference between Knight and Sadako to SM. Pretending otherwise is outright silly. Now, Legion and SM is more comparable. It wasn't quite as bad with Legion, but it was at least in the same ballpark.
You can still play SM in a trap Killer based way after this rework, some people will even continue to do so, just like some people try to make rush-down Legion work.
I'd rather she was never included, but since she's here, she may as well be a half-decent design and not a cobbled together mess as she is now.
If you aren't going to address any of my points, I'd rather not engage further as it appears neither of us will get what we want.
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I addressed your points. You still never explained how she is a trap killer though.
Sadako, Knight, and Legion were all nearly universally hated and you would get hate and constant DCs for playing them, that is a fact. Setting something up around the map does not make you a trap killer. Singularity does exactly that, and you would find very few people who would in good faith argue that he is a trap killer. Just like you would find very few people who would try and honestly say the twins are a trap killer because Viktor can be used in the same manner as SMs drones after the changes. SM is far closer to the Twins after this with her having mini Victors.
But you're right, as long as you aren't actually going to address any of that and keep being disingenuous there is no discussion to be had, so I'll just leave it there.0 -
But going back to your comment:
Again, I genuinely think it more of a problem of people not seriously giving her a chance and learning.If that is true, I don't think it has to do with just haste/hinder. People aren't 'giving her a chance' because of that. If your comment is correct, and I'm kind of 50/50 on whether it is, then people have decided they hate her 'identity'. At that point the only path forward is changing her identity.
like they did with the KnightThe difference though is that Knight's power, initially, creates for an interesting and cool game. A killer that summons different guards with different powers that can pop up suddenly doesn't in anyway look boring to most survivors. The bigger problem emerged when it was realized he could just play defense the entire time. He had/has some other issues, namely that his guards become uninteresting once you know how they work, but once the 3 gen issue was solved
Skully's power has always had the feel of area denial which isn't very interesting to deal with.
really don't need another dash killer when we have so many options for those as it is.I know this is going on in other discussions, but calling her a dash killer just doesn't make sense. She still seems far closer to a trap killer than a dash killer. But even if she isn't a trap killer, she isn't a dash killer.
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I do think SOME people hate her because just because she is Skull Merchant and I feel like those people will never change even after a full rework like this. Not all of them, though, obviously. A lot of people I've talked to, though, have said they hate her because of the status effect overload she has, so I just think that would be a good place to start, instead of jumping right into a full scale rework.
I suppose it depends on the person. Personally I love dealing with area denial. Trapper and SM are two of my favourite killers to go up against, but I may be an oddity there. Given that trapper doesn't seem to be very disliked and people seem to, at the very least, tolerate Singularity and Hag, I think that area denial at its core isn't a fundamental problem.
I don't see elements of a trap killer in her new kit. Sure, she places down her drones, but I just don't think placing something is what makes a trap killer a trap killer. In function I just see her more as a twins with more Victors. I think it is fair to call her a dash killer though as it appears the main way you will get damage is using your drones dash function. The new post says:
"Skull Merchant can choose to take control of Drones from a distance. During this time, she becomes Undetectable, as her controlled Drone becomes the primary threat. These Stealth Drones move slightly faster than her base movement speed and consume a new resource – Power, unique to each Drone – while being controlled.
Power is consumed slowly as the controlled Drone idles and slightly more is consumed while moving. Skull Merchant is also able to use a burst of this Power to activate Drone Propulsion. This charged power sends the Drone flying forward at high speed, relative to how long it was charged.
Hitting a Survivor with Drone Propulsion causes them to lose a health state"
That sounds pretty much like something similar to the twins with Victor, who is just a dash killer, or a projectile killer, depending on how you would classify them. She has a slight amount of setup still, sure, but again, I don't think setup makes a killer a trap killer, as if it did, then Singularity would be a trap killer.2 -
While I’m happy she’s finally getting reworked and she does seem much more fun to play as and against than before, I do have to agree with the people saying that she should’ve stayed a trap killer.
Currently there’s arguably on 3 trap killers - Trapper, Hag, and Skull Merchant. Now that SM is being reworked to no longer be one we really only have two, and BHVRs already said they don’t plan on making Trapper viable anytime soon. So it just kind of comes off like they don’t really want trap based killers, which sucks for those who actually enjoy them now that they don’t really have any options left to play.
Like they’ve made her more ‘fun’, but not for those that actually enjoyed her. It’s kind of like how they completed reworked Freddy and the ones who actually stuck with the character despite everything were the ones who got the short end of the stick.
She absolutely needed a rework, and I’ll give the new version a try, but I wish she still had some of her old identity and they didn’t just go a pseudo-Freddy route and essentially make her an entirely different killer. As someone who mained the OG Freddy, I know exactly how it feels to lose something you put so much time into just to realise that none of the other killers give that same feeling.
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Just imagine trapper, and telepathically he could fling his bear traps at you that he placed.
Its still a trap playstyle just less passive and more active.
Similar but not quite Singularity, as you cant be damaged by cameras.
And absolutely nothing like Victor, I have no clue why anyone would try to make that comparison thats a big yikes of a stretch.-7 -
I've been imagining this for a LOOOOONG time. <3
-2 -
Maybe he could get like… a Magneto helmet add-on one of these days
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