http://dbd.game/killswitch
Slugging
I know lots of the community hates slugging and I tend to get a lot of hate for it in matches. I wanted to post here and get some rational responses as to why it's toxic/bad/boring, whichever interpretation you have.
Note: I am not talking about leaving 4 people slugged to intentionally bleed them out. So assuming as soon as everyone's downed you hook them. Also not talking about slugging for hatch for this conversation. Everything else fair game.
What's the difference between being on the ground and being on the hook? At least on the ground you can move around, set up for a pallet/flashlight save/ hide/potentially anti slug/heal perks/might not lose one of my health states. On the hook you literally cannot doing anything other than try to remove yourself from the game.
If you can't do anything on the hook I can't even see an argument for it being less boring than being slugged. The only rational reason I can see for hating slugging is that they want the ability to remove themselves from the game on the hook, that's it, and I don't think that should be encouraged.
I'm genuinely looking a good reason to support peoples dislikes or to change my mind on the topic. As a survivor I'd always rather be slugged than hooked, I can't see any reason why I wouldn't.
Answers
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I feel it's usually just survivors with a flashlight all upset about slugging and then getting chased themselves when they want to just stand around and blind the killer when they pick people up. The amount of surprise Pikachu faces I've seen on streamers after watching their vod post match when I down someone else then run after them is quite humorous. They expect blinds to be handed to them and not get chased.
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well people don't want to bring unbreakable or the unbreakable boon and counter slugging so they complained to bhvr and behavor destroyed knock out
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Well and I don't even think you need anti slug perks to counter slugging, those perks just hard counter it.
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Hopefully the people downvoting will actually come to the conversation because I genuinely want to understand and am open to changing my mind.
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I have no problem with situational slugging. Sometimes it's beneficial to do so. Sometimes survivors force you to, by going for sabo plays. That's all fine for me.
Slugging a survivor to stop hatch spawning feels cringeworthy though. The match is already won at that point. So is it necessary to have someone bleed out for four minutes just to avoid losing one kill? I get that the game lets you do a bunch of unfun things to secure a victory, but it's kind of down to us to stop matches from degenerating into a miserable slog, seeing as BHVR is slow to address the game's most problematic issues.
Bleeding a full team for the lulz is just sad. But at least there's a way out now for those of us who are too busy travelling the world and kissing attractive women on the mouth, to lie there for four minutes doing absolutely nothing.
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I personally don't see an issue with slugging for hatch. It's not his fault that's how they designed hatch.
I probably should've added that to the exception list though. I'm more just talking about slugging in the match for this topic, not really the end. Do you take issue with slugging in the match?
-1 -
I don't blame killer players for slugging for hatch. I blame the devs for not finding a solution for it lmao.
No, slugging is fine as a mechanic. It's much like other things in this game, where it only becomes problematic when pushed to it's extreme. I've been slugged by many Oni players, and I always wish them well as they leave me bleeding out, to go find someone else to flatten with his power.
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So, I do agree that slugging should be situational, and those situations should be dependent on responses to gameplay. I'll leave "excessive slugging" off the table, since no one is talking about that.
So, when I say situational, I mean things like "the survivor off hook ran at me (probably has DS)" or "they sabotaged the hook I was heading for", or even "I saw someone looking for a flashlight save so I'll bait the pickup and chase them instead".
You're taking about slugging as a direct replacement for hooks, which is different. That's clearly not how the game is designed to work, since hooks exist.
It's the equivalent of old hatch. No one asked "why do killers not like the hatch spawn?"... Because hatch wasn't intended to be the primary way for survivors to escape. It was supposed to be rare, last hope for escape, and not "lul, let's do just enough gens to get everyone out with my key". So they changed it.
This is the same thing. Slugging isn't supposed to be the way survivors are put in time out every time. Hooks are a way to get survivors out of the game, with at least some chance of recovery. Slugging to avoid hits is literally just bypassing that intended mechanic, and going back to "I can just down you instantly again, with no consequence" that we had before base kit BT was put in.
And just like old hatch, this is an unintended use of that mechanic, and the devs should make sure the "anti slug" system curbs this type of slugging. I'm not sure what that system looks like that doesn't directly impact other forms of slugging, but if people are abusing the mechanic, and they clearly are, then it needs to be changed.
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Well, it mostly comes down to a few things;
The sheer time (assuming no Unbreakable or Boon Exponential) that will likely be spent on the ground is just annoying. If the Killer isn't on the stronger end of the spectrum (able to team-down quickly) and/or your teammates actually do gens and are half-decent at chase then there is little incentive to get you up in a timely manner, which means you'll likely spend ≈2 minutes (120 seconds passes a lot slower than it sounds) on the ground twiddling your thumbs. Crawling to your teammates might draw the Killer to them and is not exactly a good idea unless the exact location/status of the Killer is known. If hooked, sure you can't do anything (although Kindred can give you some value even if hooked) but unless you're left to die then it's likely you'll be off the hook and back in the game in half that time or less (depending on the Killer's camping habit).
The very common occurence of getting "WSed" on the ground. Even if hooked shortly after (which is not the case most of the time) it's annoying and spiteful for no reason (sometimes I assume it's because the Killer got absolutely destroyed in their previous game and is taking it out on random people with no link to it whatsoever) and unlike t-bagging at the gate (which is just as useless and spiteful but can be either ignored or forced out) there is nothing you can do about it.
The fact that, since the short-sighted Finisher Mori was implemented without caveats, there is an almost guaranteed chance that being the last slug will result in the Killer waiting over you until everyone else is dead (oftentimes with a little "WS" during the wait) to do a Mori which everyone hates by now since everyone has seen them dozens of times now and almost feels more like a form of BM and yet another reason why the game won't end more than like a cool cutscene that wasn't common like before.
Slugging for the 4k and getting bled out for 4 minutes (one does not exclude the other) happens way more often than getting slugged for a bit then hooked when it's safe to do so. Sometimes it's even not intentional and someone bleeds out because the Killer couldn't find them again, but the "why" matters little here. Props to you for not dragging the match on but that is not the average conclusion to getting slugged.
People wouldn't complain so much about slugging if it wasn't so common and if it wasn't often used more as a form of BM than an actual strategy, especially since the Finisher Mori which made slugging for the 4k even more common than it already was. No one cares if the Killer takes a few seconds to look around for a possible flashlight/pallet saver, that's not the kind of slugging people dislike and want gone.
Hell, I don't think I've seen a single game since the surrender mechanic that didn't end with at least one bot (since even if not slugged for the 4k, the last Survivor will instantly use the surrender mechanic if/when downed just to not have to see the Mori if they lose the Hatch race). That's how sick of 4k slugging and Mori animations people are.
"Hopefully the people downvoting will actually come to the conversation because I genuinely want to understand and am open to changing my mind."
Yeah… The downvote button is (very often) used when people don't want to engage in the why they dislike something and just press the "no" button and move on. The downvote button arguably discourage conversation due to it being a quicker alternative than explaining why, it also (just like Youtube before they removed the visible number of dislikes) sometimes will encourage other people to use the dislike button purely because the majority have used it and not because of their true opinion. I wouldn't hold my breath on the downvote button being an indicator of people who will take the time to answer.
Post edited by Skillfulstone on-2 -
An unintended play style is not an argument for why it's toxic, boring, or bad though. If this is the argument, then at best it's an argument for something might need changes. Inherent unintended play style doesn't give us a reason for why it's hated.
"I can just down you instantly again, with no consequence"
Slugging is inherently very high risk. So I disagree with this completely. There are lots of consequences.
"devs should make sure the "anti slug" system curbs this type of slugging"
But why? Why is this alternate play style "bad" and it needs to be curbed?
I don't see unintended alternate play style in and of itself as an issue nor does it answer my core question which is why it's hated, rationally.
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"which means you'll likely spend ≈2 minutes (120 seconds passes a lot slower than it sounds) on the ground twiddling your thumbs."
How's that different though than 2minutes spent on a hook, twiddling thumbs?
"If hooked, sure you can't do anything (although Kindred can give you some value even if hooked) but unless you're left to die then it's likely you'll be off the hook and back in the game in half that time or less (depending on the Killer's camping habit)."
I mean if they were going to rescue you that fast off hook, you'd be rescued that fast off the ground, no difference.
"The very common occurence of getting "WSed" on the ground. Even if hooked shortly after (which is not the case most of the time) it's annoying and spiteful for no reason (sometimes I assume it's because the Killer got absolutely destroyed in their previous game and is taking it out on random people with no link to it whatsoever) and unlike t-bagging at the gate (which is just as useless and spiteful but can be either ignored or forced out) there is nothing you can do about it."
Well my example is just slugging, not being toxic WS'ing them on the ground. That's something entirely different and a completely different conversation.
"The fact that, since the short-sighted Finisher Mori was implemented without caveats, there is an almost guaranteed chance that being the last slug will result in the Killer waiting over you until everyone else is dead (oftentimes with a little "WS" during the wait) to do a Mori which everyone hates by now since everyone has seen them dozens of times now and almost feels more like a form of BM and yet another reason why the game won't end more than like a cool cutscene that wasn't common like before."
Again, WS'ing is an entirely different topic than what I'm talking about. I'm talking about slugging in the game, not end game for a mori.
"Slugging for the 4k and getting bled out for 4 minutes (one does not exclude the other) happens way more often than getting slugged for a bit then hooked when it's safe to do so. Sometimes it's even not intentional and someone bleeds out because the Killer couldn't find them again, but the "why" matters little here. Props to you for not dragging the match on but that is not the average conclusion to getting slugged."
Getting bled out with 4 of you on the ground is extremely rare. FAR from average conclusion. So rare it isn't even worth mentioning imo. However as I stated in my original post, this is again a completely different topic than what I'm talking about. I said excluding this in the note. The "why" also matters significantly. If you died from bleeding out just because your team left you there then that's your teams fault, not the killer. That's like blaming the killer when he's not at the hook and your team leaves you on the hook to die.
"People wouldn't complain so much about slugging if it wasn't so common and if it wasn't often used more as a form of BM than an actual strategy, especially since the Finisher Mori which made slugging for the 4k even more common than it already was. No one cares if the Killer takes a few seconds to look around for a possible flashlight/pallet saver, that's not the kind of slugging people dislike and want gone."
I completely disagree. The vast majority of the time slugging is not for BM'ing. The majority of the games that I slug they say that I'm "BM'ing" or trying to be toxic when I'm not. So when people "say" it's mostly to BM, their "interpretations" of the killers intentions in my experience is the majority of the time just wrong. Them thinking it's to BM and it actually being BM are two different things.
"No one cares if the Killer takes a few seconds to look around for a possible flashlight/pallet saver, that's not the kind of slugging people dislike and want gone."
Right, and I'm still asking why them just slugging as a strategy is toxic/bad/boring? Let's even assume a more extreme example. Not for a few seconds. They go into the match never planning to hook anyone. What's the problem with that? Again, assuming no bm'ing or leaving people to bleed out once he gets them.
"Hell, I don't think I've seen a single game since the surrender mechanic that didn't end with at least one bot (since even if not slugged for the 4k, the last Survivor will instantly use the surrender mechanic if/when downed just to not have to see the Mori if they lose the Hatch race). That's how sick of 4k slugging and Mori animations people are."
I don't think that has anything to do with being sick of 4k slugging or mori animations. It's ego and just wanting to move on to the next match as fast as possible.
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When I say "Slugging for the 4k" or "4k slugging" I mean the extremely popular action of downing the 3rd Survivor (after killing the first 2) to bypass Hatch entirely and either hook the 4th then go back to the 3rd OR just wait over the one with most Bleedout timer. Unless the Survivor on hook lets themselves die or was already on 2nd hook, then both outcomes lead to minutes of wasted time ending in a bleedout and/or an inevitable Mori (which is why people immediately use the "Abandon" option, to bypass both of those things).
"Team-slugging" and "slugging for the 4k" mean different things for me so my bad ^^'
I'm aware that team-slugging is pretty rare (and since Knockout is gone it's now even tougher, and it's honestly a good thing because old Knockout was basically just an anti-SoloQ perk) but slugging for the 4k happens basically every games that the Killer wins and at least one person will spend ages just waiting on the ground for the inevitable Mori.
You say that "WSing", slugging for the 4k and team-slugging aren't important in this conversation…but they are relevant since they are the primary reason why people hate slugging in general. If everybody played like you since day 1 of the game's existence, people wouldn't care nearly as much about slugging since they wouldn't have to deal with all the annoying kinds of slugging on a regular basis, only with the limited slugging with a strategy in mind (mind you, team-slugging no matter the intent is still boring and unless the Survivors are really bad and/or you are miles better than them then there's no way at least one Survivor isn't bleeding out on the ground after 4 minutes of boredom and wasted time since slugging an entire team within 4 minutes is a feat unless the Survivors really mess up….or you are playing Nurse before her Blink attack became a special attack) and it would be likely acknowledged as a boring yet valid strategy and not as something that justifies creating entirely new mechanics (which will inevitably create other issues and people will find ways to work around them anyway) to circumvent it, anti-slug perks would be more than enough.
Furthermore, the "why" people bled out doesn't really matter as for their reaction to it (you can't tell me you've never lost a slug that crawled away after downing several Survivors and they just bled out somewhere while you were frantically scouring the map looking for them, it happened to all of us) it is just as boring for the Survivor either way (in fact some Survivors will purposefully try to hide as a slug to spite the Killer by wasting the maximum amount of their time too, it's petty but it does happen), the only variable here is the addition of BMing (but we already established that you're talking about non-BMing slugging) but whether you meant to bleed them out or not doesn't really matter to the Survivor (especially since they have no real way to know for sure unless it is said during post-game chat/through messages).
Most people hate slugging because they had to deal with the annoying kind of slugging for years and it only got worse over time (culminating in the Finisher Mori which cemented almost every lost trials ending with one Survivor getting slugged waiting to be Moried). You can't have a conversation about why people hate slugging without including the bad kind of slugging since it's the core reason why all forms of slugging is hated and BHVR had to create a way for Survivors to dip without penalty when the remaining Survivor(s) are downed.
If slugging for the 4k, WSing, and team-slugging didn't exist or were all extremely rare, the "Surrender" mechanic would also have no reason to exist and BHVR wouldn't be working on another anti-slug mechanic in the future.
Side-note: There is a lot less pressure to get a slug up than unhooking someone. If someone spends 2 minutes one the ground then they still have 2 minutes before they die so if the Killer doesn't hook and the other Survivors can deal with the Killer then it's really no big deal to leave a slug for a while and do gens instead, if someone spends half of their hook timer on hook and goes to 2nd hook state, well it's a different matter isn't it? Survivors gain nothing by leaving someone to go on 2nd hook unless the Killer (depending on the Killer) is hard-camping and isn't even trying to patrol. In fact leaving a slug on the ground for long enough to do a gen or two if the Killer isn't snowballing is arguably the right play.
Many Survivors won't bother crossing the entire map to get a slug that can crawl their way closer anyway unless the situation is already pretty dire. Especially in SoloQ (which is the vast majority of players) it's not rare to be left on the ground for a while if no healing/anti-slug perks are in play.
You are right that people often assume the reason why they get slugged, and it's because it happens often, many times accompanied by BM, and sometimes out of spite rather than a real strategy. Whether they are right or wrong is of very little importance since console players (most of the playerbase if combined) don't even have access to a post-game chat that the Killer could use to say that it wasn't out of spite unless they happen to play on the same console. Again, I really appreciate that you aren't like that, but that's really not the case for all players, and people also tend to remember the bad things much better and for longer than the good things.
Also keep in mind that the community isn't exactly know for their self-restraint and sportsmanship, remember when they had to remove an entire cosmetic type (Bubba's Survivor masks) because twisted people would use it to target specific people? I've gotten more slurs, DDOS threats, physical threats and other kinds of bad "wishes" playing this game while actively going for 12 hooks than in any of the hundreds of other game's I've played combined. It's also very possible that the Survivor throwing those accusation just got out of a game that ended in a similar fashion (as slugging for the 4k is insanely common) and they are lashing out.
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So I understand your point correctly. You agree with me that there's nothing inherently wrong with slugging, and that the hate is just basically trauma from other people doing it to be toxic and them assuming that's what I'm doing? You'd also agree that them being left on the ground by teammates because of lack of urgency is their teams fault, not the killers?
If i understand you correctly it seems you basically agree with me then that slugging isn't toxic/bad/boring and it's just people carrying their trauma forward and assuming ill intent.
Thank you for the cordial conversation btw.
-1 -
Yes, slugging itself isn't bad, people hate it mostly because of how it's being used for years and how common it is ("trauma" might be a big word though).
I won't lie and say I don't find it boring if the Killer just leaves me there and doesn't come back, strategic reasons or not, but if there's obviously other Survivors nearby or if there's another reason why (1-2 gens left and I went down far from them, hook got saboed, someone else previously used DS and it made him overly cautious etc.) then it makes sense to not let themselves be vulnerable to a potential save (to think otherwise is illogical) and at the very least chase them away. But if there's no BM going on and I eventually get hooked then I don't really mind. I quite frankly don't care that much about the outcome of a match as long as I got to actually play the game longer than the time I waited in lobby XD
I try to stay cordial and keep a mostly impartial point of view in the forums, I see too many threads devolve into "Us vs Them" and long-distance shouting matches rather than actual conversations.
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We'll give a less generous example and say the killer goes into the match not planning to hook anyone until hes got all 4 down, then hooking them all. No BM'ing.
Would you say there's anything inherently wrong with this? Why is it boring? I haven't really seen a difference between sitting on the hook or sitting on the ground. If anything I'd see an argument for why hooking people is more boring for them.
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I personally think slugging should be an effective short term option but not a long term match option. 2v8 had the perfect balance of unbreakable at the cost of exhaustion, such a thing could also force a 120s exhaustion timer and not affect the killers ability to slug for pressure.
Slugging is a strategy but it needs to be a less effective long term one to allow matches to keep flowing and for more back and forth. It's not fun to be on the floor for 5 minutes or however long it is, an this way if you want to keep slugging, you have to keep chasing, just like hooks.1 -
What's the difference between sitting on a hook and sitting on the ground?
"an this way if you want to keep slugging, you have to keep chasing, just like hooks."
"Slugging is a strategy but it needs to be a less effective long term one to allow matches to keep flowing and for more back and forth"
You have to keep chasing whether it's slugs or hooks, no difference. Also its flowing back and forth whether it's slugs or hooks as well. None of this is specific to hooking.
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No one who is on these forums has a life. Myself included.
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Definitely an addiction lol
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The difference is slugging takes less effort and is more oppressive to solo Q, especially with killers who have high mobility or ways to hinder survivors easily. Do you play much survivor? This is an honest question
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I'd like an example of how slugging takes less effort. If anything it takes more effort. You're now having to juggle the slugs at the same time and the high risk of them getting up, resetting, and you gained nothing. Literally everything is more oppressive to solo queue.
I play survivor a lot. I've got over 11k hours. If i said survivor needed buffs would I be getting asked if I play killer much? I think it's better to tend with the point being made.
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Unhook perks and Basekit BT.
Unhooking comes with the assurance that on your unhook, you will have a minimum amount of time before you can be hooked again. Without any antitunnel, that duration is admittedly rather short, at 10 seconds, but it is still a significant enough amount of time that, when paired with exhaustion, can get you to a pallet that can then begin to extend your time between downs further.
When being picked up from a slugging killer, chances are you will immediately go down again. The only ways to prevent instant re-downing is to bring self-pickup, so you can time it properly, WGLF on the person picking you up which for SoloQs is a rare comfort, or Soul Guard, which is considered far too situational to garner an entire perk slot.
That's not to say I want some kind of… basekit Soul Guard, because I think Slugging should be disincentivised in ways that aren't adding more basekit systems after the abject failure that has been antifacecamp. But that's hopefully an explanation on why slugging is more frustrating than being hooked.
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Thank you for the responses.
"Unhooking comes with the assurance that on your unhook, you will have a minimum amount of time before you can be hooked again. Without any antitunnel, that duration is admittedly rather short, at 10 seconds, but it is still a significant enough amount of time that, when paired with exhaustion, can get you to a pallet that can then begin to extend your time between downs further. "
I don't really see this as a reason to hate slugging. Being on the ground doesn't encur a hook state. IE the entire point of those things is to prevent an immediate extra state. If anything being slugged is a base kit much longer version of those other things. Also, bleed out state is longer so it's significantly easier to punish the killer for this if he's camping them or something since you can literally free pump all the gens out. This doesn't seem like being able to go back down immediately is a good argument. I feel like if the team is getting 4 slugged they had to be getting outplayed extremely. This is not an easy thing to do bar some killer exceptions.
I don't agree about disincentivizing slugging. I haven't heard a good reason yet why it should be. I am however in favor of incentivizing hooking more. Currently there's very little incentive to do so.
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It's a matter of agency. The person being slugged does not ever get the opportunity to play the game again without being bailed out by a perk they likely do not have access to. Hooking comes with a small assurance that you might get to.
Punishing a killer for slugging requires a level of organization that most SoloQ survivors aren't really equipped to handle. This constructs a SWF/Solo disparity, even now that Knockout is gone. Given SoloQ players are already at a disadvantage even when the killer is hooking, simply due to gen inefficiency and a lack of macro organization, it's understandable that this would frustrate players further than a loss when the killer is interacting with game systems as intended would.
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Simple Slugging takes less action to perform, you take out picking up the survivor, taking them to a hook then hooking them plus the borrowed time and anti camp out of the picture. Being on the floor is easier to defend as a killer and you can in most cases get free injuries or even just down the survivor again instantly much faster than tunneling someone out who has BT.
You can also get better positioning of the survivor if you down them in an awkward spot, it's very unlikely the survivor has tenacity, you're only really running into anti-slug with SWFs. Most solos at most run Anti-Tunnel tbh, which is avoided entirely if you don't hook them in the first place.
Anti-Slug is on the QoL list, and we've already seen one change with Knockouts rework, it's not hard to see your take is heavily disagreed upon by the community as a whole on socials. The coming QoL is to make DBD a more accessible game for those old and new to the fog, and much like your disagreement to the haste changes, it's necessary to make a healthier back and forth like is intended.1 -
You're all ignoring base kit on this subject.
Hook is not remotely the same as slug.
There is no perk for slug like Kindred.
Survivor has no option of "go next" while slugged.
I'm not justifying go next, yet I am pointing out a slugged player has zero agency other than DC penalty.
Slugging is fine when, killer knows it's your last hook, survivor is trying to flashlight, etc.
It's not ok when killer goes to the other side of the map or 4k hatch prevent.
It's literally hijacking the game. Forcing others to do nothing while killer gets to play.
You can literally earn max bp without a single kill. I'm not endorsing farming as it's kinda boring but it's justified when a survivor screw's the rest of their team. <10k survivor and 20k killer points is pathetic.
You earn points from actions and chases. Not just killing. Not just surviving.
Preventing people from playing the game from actions is the toxic.
Mic drop.1 -
@Blueberry I think the main reason why you can't understand the reason why people complain about it, is because you play the game competitively (I am talking about mindset instead of being in team). That means that you can easily excuse something when you see, that it's fair and tactical for the game. But very large part of the player base is not like that (hence why 60% kill rate is accepted and more competitive survivor players that did not accept it had moved on to different games or are part of 4man squads).
But when you take most other player base, you get 2 possible outcomes.
a, you get hooked. Other survivors feel pressure to unhook you. In soloQ quite a number of people are greedy for unhook bloodpoints/tome challenges for unhook/usage of their unhook perk. In the end, you don't stay on hook that long on average AND if you feel your team is not doing things to your satisfaction, you can go next (you don't even need to use the option ever. The fact that you have the option gives you mental piece, because that's human).
b, you get slugged. You can be slugged for 4 minutes before you die = 2x as long without any real agency/being able to do anything productive. In conclusion to this one, your teammates do not feel rushed to pick you up, so it's very likely you will use up quite a big part of your slug meter. If killer singles you out for any reason (and wants you dead no matter what), the only option for you to not bleed out is having 1 of very few and quite unpopular perks, being slugged when gates were really close to be opened (so you can slug out in time/force killer to hook/carry you further) or killer not singling you out fully AND your team being 100% dedicated in getting you out no matter what.
Most (that's still not all) of the people that keep playing the game as survivor don't care that much about winning any more. The most fun part is being able to do stuff/chase. By not being able to participate in game it feels boring (no matter if they are winning thanks to it - it can be tactical to keep someone on the ground for a bit longer). The player in that case is still winning by not really participating in the game. That's called boring by a lot of people. Especially if it gets common (which is totally very much exacerbated by BM slugging and slugging for 4k).
Hope this helps
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you should have just scrolled through the forum for threads about slugging, rather than creating a pointless thread. this isn't even the right section, you should be in "general questions" or "discussions"
-1 -
Very much appreciate the well thought out response, many people on here can tend to get condescending or overly emotional when I just want a normal and rational conversation @Gandor
I see your point on how I view the game vs others. I think that as you said, part of my acceptance of it is in fact of seeing it as fair, I agree. Although when we frame is as "seeing it as fair" I think it implies a note of agreeing it's an acceptable negative reality of the game (from the competitive view point as you mentioned). More than just being fair though, I actually don't think there's anything negative/boring/toxic about it either, like at all. Even if we were viewing it from a casual stand point. That's essentially what I'm looking for here, an example to illustrate why I may be wrong in this if there's some point I haven't thought of yet.
" a, you get hooked. Other survivors feel pressure to unhook you. In soloQ quite a number of people are greedy for unhook bloodpoints/tome challenges for unhook/usage of their unhook perk. In the end, you don't stay on hook that long on average AND if you feel your team is not doing things to your satisfaction, you can go next (you don't even need to use the option ever. The fact that you have the option gives you mental piece, because that's human)."
So it would seem that actually the real issue is a blood point incentive that's similar to unhooking should be added to picking up slugs. I'd also argue that if slugging is hated because their teammates leave them on the hook then that's something to be agree at teammates, not the killer. Like when the killer slugs me and I get left there a long time, I'm upset with my teammates, not the killer.
"b, you get slugged. You can be slugged for 4 minutes before you die = 2x as long without any real agency/being able to do anything productive. In conclusion to this one, your teammates do not feel rushed to pick you up, so it's very likely you will use up quite a big part of your slug meter. If killer singles you out for any reason (and wants you dead no matter what), the only option for you to not bleed out is having 1 of very few and quite unpopular perks, being slugged when gates were really close to be opened (so you can slug out in time/force killer to hook/carry you further) or killer not singling you out fully AND your team being 100% dedicated in getting you out no matter what."
So the best argument against my point is the time on ground being twice as long. I can agree with that. However my counter argument to this is that just like when killers talk about how the game isn't balanced for 12 hooks, it's unrealistic. Even the vast majority of the game games you win are not with 12 hooks. Meaning they're exaggerating to the extreme. In this same since, when slugged whether you win or lose as survivor you are very rarely being there for the full 4 minutes. You either get up and win or the killer gets you all 4 down and starts hooking long before 4minutes. Again were assuming no toxicity for this example. IE the discrepancy between hook and ground time is much closer in reality even though the "potential" is higher, just like "12 hooks". Again though I do agree, this is the strongest and probably only "real" counterargument I've heard that I can somewhat agree with. I would argue still however that urgency in picking you up being slow is not the killers fault, but teammates. I'm in favor of adding more bloodpoints to pick ups for them.
"Most (that's still not all) of the people that keep playing the game as survivor don't care that much about winning any more. The most fun part is being able to do stuff/chase. By not being able to participate in game it feels boring (no matter if they are winning thanks to it - it can be tactical to keep someone on the ground for a bit longer). The player in that case is still winning by not really participating in the game. That's called boring by a lot of people. Especially if it gets common (which is totally very much exacerbated by BM slugging and slugging for 4k)."
I definitely think there's an mmr skew on that mind set lol, but I get your point. I generally don't agree that they're getting to participate less in the game when there's slugging at play. In a hypothetical extreme where yes they are on the ground 4 minutes vs 2 minutes on hook then yeah, I agree, more boring. I just think that's not as practical to what actually happens in reality as well as more of that boring being because of teammates.
I'm currently doing a win streak with Knight (35 in the streak so far) using an only slug strategy as I feel forced to get creative with him in strategies as he is way too weak played normal to be competitive. His time to down is way too slow and I had to think of a way to make up for his lack of time efficiency and cutting out wasted pick up, carry, and hook time was one of those. I also don't kick any gens. So it's also not like I'm doing this with a slug monster such as Nurse, Blight, Spirit or anything. It's literally a basic m1 killer that's generally put in C tier at best, if not usually D or F tier by most people.
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Actually I'm in the Feedback section, because I'm looking for Feedback. Not the wrong section.
Also, scrolling for slug topics is always irrational/emotional responses without any actual substance. None of which answer this threads topic.
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We shouldn't be encouraging go next. So them not being able to go next on the ground is irrelevant.
Survivors have perks to show teammates when someones slugged just like Kindred accomplishes.
Not only do they have agency while slugged, it's significantly more, like I listed in my original post. You can do many things while slugged, but nothing while hooked. The lack of agency is being hooked, not slugged.
Why is it not okay to slug and then go to the other side of the map? I'm hearing again that it's disliked, but not a good reason why.
It's not hijacking the game lol. You can do more on the ground than on the hook.
Earn max BP without killing? Have you compared the BP differences in this? You get much less by slugging. So no, it is not rewarding them.
If you consider slugging preventing people from playing the game, then hooking is preventing people from playing the game. This isn't an actual argument.
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Less action yes, that's the whole point, to save time. You said less effort, that's very different than less action. Effort implies skill, action does not. Less action is not inherently a bad thing. Slugging imo takes less action, but more skill. Again for this example we excluding toxicity, IE I'm not talking about sitting on top of them camping them to force them back down and avoid anti tunnel stuff. I feel like every example of why it's bad keeps going back to toxicity stuff of which for this conversation I am assuming we aren't doing any of. Assume I'm literally going to the opposite side of the map even.
Is survivors going down in an awkward spot the killers fault or their own? Survivors have agency. This is like blaming the killer for the survivor running into a corner before they go down.
I already said most disagree in my original post, not looking for a popularity vote. I'm asking a simple why. I generally haven't got one yet. Most responses are irrational/emotional it's bad/boring but I can't explain a good reason why. I think this is more because it hurts ego and prevents go next personally, but I'm looking for an alternative if this isn't true.
Yeah I disagree with the haste changes as well, I think it hurts survivor creativity/fun with builds more than anything. Different topic though.
"Healthier back and forth" everyone agrees with, myself included. It's like saying I'm pro world peace rofl. Where we disagree is that haste stack or slugging lowers healthier back and forth, of which I don't think it does.
I think if the hate for slugging was being directed properly it would instead be at encouraging killers to hook through base kit changes, not punishing for slugging. They are generally slugging because hooking has been so punished more and more over the years that it's looked less and less efficient. BHVR generally needs more carrot and less stick in their changes. Slugging is the symptom of a bigger problem, not the problem itself.
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Being slugged has massively more agency than being hooked as per the examples I provided in my original post. You also have way more opportunity to play the game slugged vs hooked.
Are you implying slugging is currently too strong vs solo queue? The game is balanced around solo queue. Are you also saying that the game is not balanced well for solo queue currently overall? I ask because I'm getting the notion that you're implying solo queue is like on the ground getting kicked over and over or something. Solo queue is objectively worse than swf yes, but is it in a bad place. I do not think so, which is what may be causing our disagreement here.
I think if we want killers to hook more they should be incentivized to do so. Currently they are heavily punished for hooking. We need more carrot and less stick. Slugging is the symptom of a problem, not the problem itself. Trying to punish slugging and treating the symptom doesn't fix the problem. We need to encourage hooking if that's what they want. Kinda getting off topic here I suppose.
Post edited by Blueberry on-1 -
Okay so you mostly agree with me then.
So why is it more boring if he downs you and leaves you slugged to walk across the map vs you sitting on the hook? Seems you're sitting there "bored" either way. If anything on the ground there's a bunch of different things I can do like I mentioned in my original post. Sitting on a hook with literally nothing to do seems objectively way more boring than being slugged.
Agree totally about most forum conversations lol. Most people start to be condescending or overly emotional very quickly. It's hard to keep it rational and calm when parties disagree.
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You have a 4% chance to escape first hook each attempt for a total of 16% without perks. You have 0% chance to escape slug without perks.
So, no, you don't have more agency.0 -
Again, we should not be encouraging "go next" and the 4% rng shouldn't even exist.
Also again, while slugged you can move around, set up for a pallet/flashlight save/ hide/potentially anti slug/heal perks/might not lose one of my health states. Way more agency than while hooked.
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It doesn't really matter if it's survivors fault or killer's. The end result is, that slugging creates longer "timeout" time. Now considering waiting for match, waiting in lobby and then being slugged (the overall time on average should be more then double - because there's different urgency) makes it so, that players just blame slugging altogether.
It doesn't matter if it's killer's fault (to large degree), survivor's fault, your own fault or devs fault. The end result that player sees is, that thanks to slugging he has to wait more to do actually fun stuff. And some people get so pissed at it at one point, that they (incorrectly, mind you) call it toxic playstyle.
That point comes to the fact, that they play less instead of being about risk/reward ratio and tactical slugging being inherently dangerous/skillful. They just see that thanks to that killer's action, they can't play the game (at least 2x as long as if they were hooked).
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That's a fair point. So the boring part/hate of it is solely the longer match?
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Not necessarily. The game can be overall short. The important stuff is, how big of a % of game the survivor was able to do something fun.
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So then how about we shorten the bleed out timer to be the same as hook stages? Now there wouldn't be any less time doing something fun. You can add the base kit Endurance from unhooking to pick up.
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That could work. But it could also backfire. You know that that would be quite a buff to slugging, which means that compensation nerfs would probably need to be done. Otherwise slugging could become meta tactics which could create another (a little different) problem with same result - people hating slugging. And I don't really know if giving basekit BT as compensation would be enough.
But it's true, that this would address big chunk of the problem in my eyes
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I mean this in the nicest way possible, but have you ever played Survivor and been slugged? Playing a game where the killer thinks hooking survivors like everyone else is below them is straight-up draining. At least being hooked, I can have even a smidge of control. I find it obsurd that you have to ask why is slugging boring/toxic. If you've played survivor and have been slugged you should understand, if not, give it a go. Find out 1st hand why slugging is boring/toxic.
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you are asking the community, not the developers. this is not feedback. and you are arguing with random people. you are not even suggesting anything. this is clearly not the right section
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You are new and misunderstanding the forums as well as misinterpreting conversation as "arguing".
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I play survivor a lot and would even rather be slugged. Give me an example of what "control" you have while hooked compared to being slugged.
The reason I have to ask is because I've yet to get an actual reason why it's bad. Not I don't like it, it's toxic, not asking me how I don't realize it's toxic. None of this is an actual answer. This is all emotional non answers. I'm looking for a practical and rational reason.
You can objectively do more on the ground than on the ground. That is more agency and more things to do. You can literally do nothing on a hook other than remove yourself. That is more boring than being slugged.
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I think the biggest problem with this is the lack of incentive to hook. Like for my Knight winstreak that I'm using slugging, what reason do I have not to slug? Other than lessening my chance of winning in favor of survivors having more fun? I see way more benefit to not hooking. It isn't trying to be toxic, mean, or whatever. I just look at whatever that killers strongest play style is and that's what I'll use.
I'm basically just emphasizing that I would rather play in a way people find more fun but I want the game balanced in a way that the most fun way for survivors is also the most efficient way to win (hooking). To me if people play in the most efficient way and it's a way that survivors don't find fun, they shouldn't be mad at the killer, they should be mad at the people who balanced the game to be like that. It's not a killers responsibility for the survivors fun.
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overall I agree with you. This problem is for devs to fix. It absolutely shouldn't be killer's responsibility.
and you just struck on (abstract) solutions. Either make slugging less worth it, or make it more fun (actual balance can be compensated in another way)
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If I'm on hook, I have a chance. BT, Haste etc… and you're not gonna like this one but I can also exit the lobby for free I'm not enjoying the gameplay. If i'm being slugged, nothing is stopping the killer from hovering my body and insta downing me the moment someone picks me up again. and then again, and again, and again, and then I've been bled out without being able to progress the match or earn any BP. And i'm forced to endure my inevitable defeat. That's my verdict.
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I'll say it again. I keep repeating myself. My topic here is assuming no toxicity. IE the killer is not standing on top of your body camping you while you bleed out. This is all adding additional things that are not in our example. We are assuming after you're downed that the killer literally left you entirely and booked it across the map. So you are not getting bleed out, bm'd, insta downed, so BT/haste/ect not existing is all completely irrelevant.
Given all that. Do you have a rational reason to my question?
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So we pretty much agree.
I do feel like you've given me a rational answer to my original question which is that it drags the games out longer than normal. That's the only rational/logical reason I've heard to support the boring/toxic/ect phrasing they use for slugging. However my agreement is based on other peoples experiments of this where on average the games were much longer. Assuming that is correct anyway.
Ironically even though all their experiments supported that it does make the games longer, my experience has been different. Not trying to toot my own horn here but maybe they weren't as good at it. I'm tracking my games and on average they are not only faster, but significantly at that. About 70% of my games are over before even 2 gens are completed. Quite commonly in after chat the survivors state that was the fastest game they've ever had. I think a lot of this success comes from survivors not knowing what to expect with this play style from a Knight (I've never seen another knight play this way for that matter). Survivors are very used to having extra time to sit on gens instead of immediately going for saves as they expect all the extra pick up, carry, hook time, as well as it being Knight so they don't respect the risk of how fast the game can turn into a 4 down. Very regularly instead of healing or picking up teammates they will greed the gens while injured. This is the normal game play against most killers so this isn't surprising. It's a similar thing that makes people lose against Twins.
However, even though your time reason seems good to me for most players. I still get that hate on my very fast matches. So assuming the games do go long I agree with your reasoning, it's sound. It doesn't work for my matches though. Maybe this hate it just embedded deep though from what they normally get with slugging as you presented earlier.
So long match time is a good/rational/logical answer for their hate of slugging, even if it doesn't apply to my matches.
I'll end up posting my experiences and some data from all this once I get Knight to p100 similar to how I did with Onryo. I find it interesting to look at what we got on a p100 journey as it's a large sample size.
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