http://dbd.game/killswitch
How would you fix tunnel? my idea
Regarding tunneling, what I would do is implement a system where each unique survivor gives the killer a unique card (like the Trick Cards from the event). You hook the first survivor? You get a random buff (for example, 5% faster recovery after a basic attack). You hook the same survivor again? You get nothing**. But if you hook a different survivor, you get another card (like 3% extra damage to generators), and so on until you’ve hooked all four of them. This way, the killer is rewarded for playing """the right way""", encouraging spreading hooks instead of tunneling.
**in case you want to punish the killer for doing that in EARLY stages of the game, maybe it’s bold to say, but what if the system detects that a survivor is being consistently tunneled (the only one with two hooks in the match)? Then a negative card appears, applying a debuff to the killer—like losing 5% basic attack recovery speed, or generators being repaired 5% faster. Some mechanic like that, where if one survivor is being tunneled, at least the other three (doomed to die) have a chance for revenge. The one who dies leaves behind their "last will" lmao.
Comments
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imo there should be a permanent basekit repair penalty similar to gift of pain after being hooked (maybe 10% or so). this would actively encourage killers to leave an unhooked survivor as they repair slower anyway and encourage spreading hooks to slow down the pace of the entire game. there should also definitely be punishment for intentionally tunnelling as well, as the problem needs to be solved by making tunnelling inherently less efficient than other playstyles
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Kinda interesting idea, if you would lower a bit base time required to finish gen.
Issue is such feature makes the gap between best and worst killer even more. Simply because top tier killers are going to apply that slowdown way faster.0 -
No. What is honestly with you people suggesting buffs to Killers who don't tunnel, most Killers do it to be toxic and to have easy games. They don't care about bloodpoints or anything other than making other people miserable or incredibly easy games. Crazy idea, how about BHVR hard punishes camping and tunneling by offering nothing besides penalties to the Killer if they do it? I bet that would curb it.
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people tunnel because its the most efficient way to play. making a different playstyle more efficient would reduce the amount of tunnelling (though i dont think OPs idea would make spreading hooks any more efficient really)
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I don't think incentives are realistic. I think the best way is an accurate scaling difficulty model. Essentially allow tunneling to still be possible at every stage of the trial, but so worthless and easy to counter until it can be used as a catchup mechanic. A quick example would be something like 5 gens = struggle bar beefed up, killer slowed significantly, etc., 0 gens = current state of tunneling. It'd require a lot of unique variables to prevent cheesing which I think makes it the most unrealistic to implement, but it is still what would work the best imo.
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Tunneling is the most efficient way to play because it's a low effort low skilled way to sway the game that most Survs cannot combat since it removes a ton of player agency, it completely decimates SoloQ and was a driving factor in Survs literally killing themselves on hook. Giving Killers any sort of buffs to "reward" them for not tunneling is not going to dissuade people from doing it and is going to greatly help Killers that already don't do it and don't need it.
You make a playstyle less efficient by literally penalizing certain actions so it isn't the easiest most low skilled way to dominate a match. Really, a better solution would be to do exactly what OP describes but in opposite, Killers tunneling or camping buff Surv gen speeds so gens can get done quicker. That would incentivize them to leave the hook and go after others, not giving them buffs they already don't need.
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I feel like that could be a great start. I think like a small haste boost per hook stage a survivor has above the least hooked survivor would also make it so chases for tunneling would be harder. A small amount so it isn't too harsh on more casual killers. Maybe like 3-5% haste per hook stage above the least hooked survivor.
From what I have seen in my own gameplay and watching better players, gen rushing is also too strong on the survivor side. I think making a light nerf to some of the best gen rushing perks could also help slow down the game a bit. I think it could start leading the game away from the tunneling meta.
It should also reduce the amount of tunneling by opportunity. Sometimes even if a killer isn't hard tunneling, there is no reason to not break chase from one survivor if you see a survivor that you already hooked.
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I think you've nailed the nuance of the it.
People want to say "tunneling is bad" as a blanket statement without looking at when it's acceptable. Every survivor is stealthing and you can only find one. Survivors using second chance mechanics offensively. There's only a generator or two left. Sometimes you have to do it and people cannot own up to that fact.
So scaling it somehow based on game progress is the natural solution.
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Exactly. At their core, camping/slugging/tunneling are catchup mechanics. It's not the mechanics themselves that are the issue, it's that they can be used at inappropriate times for max payoff. Really, that applies to so many things in the game as well.
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I'd rework hook and health states completely (no hooks can solve camping at the same time) but unfortunately it's too late now, you'd have to rework whole game, perks, items, maps, altruism… so realistically nothing will happen, when their anti tunnel goes live it will be killswitched in 2 days
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ugh, can you just come out and say it. "killer mains cant play efficiently".
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It does have me thinking what's in store. Maybe a buff to basekit BT? Just slightly less negligible?
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I mean, we already have some perks like Grim Embrace, No Way Out, None Are Free, and Pain Resonance….
The problem is that the killer can still tunnel someone out early game and then STILL get value from these perks after that. So if your idea is to reward killers for hooking a different person, then maybe they should completely miss out on any further rewards if they then hook the same person again.
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let's say you are the gameplay guy at BHVR, you have a choice between reworking the whole game or buff decisive strike, what would you choose ?
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No i wouldnt but then again theres no way to break infinites, there is for camp/tunnel/slug. comparing infinites to strategy is a weak argument
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Solution to tunneling is pretty simply, before 5th hook no survivor can be sacrificed. Therefore killers can still focus two people as a lot of killers do but they can't hard tunnel 1 survivor. How would it work, killers have two hooks on you and two hooks in his possesion. Now he needs another two hooks before you can be sacrificed. If he hooks you before 5th hook, he won't receive any hook progression apart from passive slowdown.
Next thing that should be buffed is the anticamp meter. Must be part of UI HUD. Additionaly it's range is too small. Killers can stand 15m away from the hook and you won't be able to unhook within 70s. Same with shack, killer can stay at the door and you get no progression because it's based on distance. Going from 16 to 24m would be fine. Standing 24m away from the hook will grant minimal progress, but will result in some. A lot of killers have powers that allow them to get into hook or damage hook in literally no time, making the anticamp absolutely meaningless.
Scenario: Wesker is standing on the rooftop of the main building next to the playground. As this is range about 20m, you will get minimal progress, but will be eventually self unhooked before reaching second stage. This is mainly to prevent killers from proxycamping. They are still able to do so, but if they want to tunnel the survivor they have to wait there untill they unhook.
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Almost all of these "just incentivized other play styles" suggestions simply do not work. Almost everything people suggest, including OP's, is just buffing killers and hoping they won't tunnel.
Because here's how this change would work in practice: killers will tunnel one person out, get a card (buff) on their first hook, which makes tunneling easier, and then have an easier time winning the 3v1.
We've had 3 years now of "just buff killers and we'll stop tunneling" and it hasn't worked. It won't work.
There is literally no buff that will convince people not to eliminate someone early. You'd have to think if something even more powerful than eliminating a player, which would be game breaking, and it would somehow have to be completely incompatible with tunneling.
The carrot doesn't work. Tunneling at 5 gens needs to be nerfed so that it's not "hands down, the best way to win every match, every time". Period.
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"Tunneling" became prominent in response to gen completion speeds.
Gens can be done within 4 minutes from the start of a match, and under such a strict time-crunch it doesn't make sense to get angry at killer players for trying to do something real enough to stop survivors from escaping (especially M1 killers).
You can't treat every killer character like they have the same power level of the nurse, blight or other S-tiers. All things considered from completion speed, 2nd chances, exhaustion perks and how much interconnecting safety there is, it's pretty insane to expect M1 killers to hook all survivors to death in an equitable rotation before all gens are done.
It's even more insane to basically demand plot armor and to force every character on the killer roster into a scenario that very few of them possess the mechanical ability to actually manage past the intermediate skill level. And all just because it doesn't feel like a shoulder rub when you get caught again in a killer's desperate attempt to stop your escape? You have to acknowledge the entire picture, not just your POV as a survivor.
I mean criminy! It's you and 3 other people against one dude, how can you possibly believe that you're in the right trying to act like the way you feel about your personal outcome matters more than what's fair in an asymmetrical PvP situation like DbD?
If you want to address how people feel about getting caught again, you'll also have to address the open door on ludicrous completion speed. It can't be the case that survivor keeps receiving protection boost after protection boost over and over and over again until there's no contest in the gameplay.
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Very true. And that's assuming you have much freedom at all without your proposal getting smacked down along the assembly line.
At the very least, they should realize that hyping up changes they're incapable of making and/or unwilling to follow through with only further strains their relationship with their audience.
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If there is something to incentivise not tunnelling I'd be open to a punishment for tunnelling, so long as its a deficit in game not like a dc penalty type thing. As annoying as tunnelling is, it's a part of every competitive game ever, I remember doing it in For Honor and Battlefront to get the competitive advantage. It's always going to exist in some form, but rather than penalise it (outside of the match) its utility can be changed. By giving the killers that don't tunnel an advantage, and the ones that do tunnel a deficit which weakens its macro utility I think tunnelling could just become a tool to achieve a 1k for a desperate killer.
So for example, every time a killer hooks a unique survivor (which was not the last one hooked) the killer gains 7% haste and a 10% terror radius reduction for a minute. this helps them find the next survivor to hook. The effects ware off once the killer has found the next survivor. - But if the killer tunnels a survivor until death every gen loses 10% progress requirement (basically basekit weaving spiders that stacks).
Obviously my example is very tame and only covers a limited amount of tunnelling but I think that'd be fair for both sides while doing at least a little to dissuade it at 5 gens. Obviously any anti-tunnel should deactivate during endgame.
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The system I've been pushing for years now encourages spreading hooks early, doesn't impact late game camping or tunneling ("resorting to"), and makes camping and tunneling inefficient to the point that people will naturally stop doing them.
I refer to it as hook donation. Essentially, each survivor can choose to donate their first hook stage to a shared pool that anyone can use. Make it so that you can't donate anymore after, say, 200% or less total gen progress remains on the map to prevent people just 99ing a gen.
This does several things: most importantly camping and tunneling at 5 gens goes away. The killers goal to playing efficiently is still to get one person out of the game as soon as possible, but waiting around a hook is not a good way to do that. In a hard camping/tunneling situation, the killer has to get through all 4 shared pool hook stages, then "final hook" then death hook. So 6 hook stages before anyone dies. Camping a hook for 7 minutes is a loss, and people will stop doing it when they lose games because of it.
The best way to burn through hook stages is to chase. You want to get another hook as fast as possible, ideally having multiple survivors on hook at the same time to burn through hook stages as fast as possible. This also creates map pressure naturally and slows down gens, since the killer is pushing people off of gens instead of standing near a hook waiting.
Shutting off donated his speeds up end game and doesn't impact "late game tunneling", but this kills the early game tunneling.
It also means better skill expression for the killer, since you're chasing more survivors and getting more hooks. Generally speaking, getting more hooks is an indicator of killer skill. Unfortunately, this also means people whose only skill is camping and tunneling will reject this idea outright, since many of those people refuse to learn anything else as long as these "tactics" are all they need to win.
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Tunneling" became prominent in response to gen completion speeds.
No it's not.
Tunneling is simpler to execute than it is to counter, which makes it effective more often than not against players of similar skill to the killer.
It's not a response to anything.
We've seen counter arguments to this in the live game repeatedly:
Gen kick and 3 gen metas held games hostage for an hour (until servers closed). Killers camped and tunneled more during that period also. You can't honestly say that "infinite gen time" wasn't enough.
If that wasn't enough, just about every single event disproves this also. Basically every event goes like this:
- Everyone tries out the event mechanic and goofs off, having fun with the new stuff.
- Killers realize that "survivors throwing snowballs" means they aren't on gens, and start tunneling for easy wins.
- Survivors realize that killers are just ignoring the event mechanic and sweating for wins, and the only way to prevent that is either not play the event (if possible) or just play the event as though the event mechanic doesn't even exist.
Tunneling and camping are catch up mechanics. They aren't a response to anything.
Gen rush is not a catch up mechanic, it's the only hope against hard tunneling. And you have to do it early: you cannot "resort to Gen rushing" once one person dies (you're losing the game). Killers *can* "resort to tunneling" in the end game, or even late game.
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- They need to stop making killers who can dash and cross large distances fast. That just makes unhooking ALWAYS dangerous and at risk of tunneling if blight can just get back within seconds.
- Big change, but as long as the exit gates aren't powered (as in there's still gens to do), once someone is unhooked, that person is shrouded by the entity (because it wants their suffering to be prolonged). For 10 seconds, the survivor becomes invisible to all players, makes no noise, leaves no scratch marks, loses all player collision, cannot be injured, and leaves no blood on the ground. This 10 seconds is to give them a completely safe reset from the hook - making distance from it and giving the killer NO idea where they went. However, during those 10 seconds, the survivor cannot interact with anything or anyone. It's entirely to be used defensively to allow for a reset.
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This is so true. If strength was the problem blight and nurse wouldn‘t Tunnel, but guess what, they do it in almost every match, because it is so much easier.
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just keep in mind that in spite of all this tunnelling should still be something the killer can do if given opportunity.
at no point there should be a scenario where survivors would rather have the killer tunnel than not.
weaponizing anti tunnel system means the system has failed and was just a nerf.
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I don't hate that idea, but what's to stop a killer from still tunnelling, but instead of killing one person you just burn through everyone's health states with as many slowdown perks as possible (especially against altruistic teams)? Also what's to stop that being used in completely honest chases with no tunnelling?
Questions like this are the reason Anti-tunnel is such a complex issue and I'd rather BHVR take their time. Whenever I play survivor myself or one of my friends get hard tunnelled at least once so I know the frustration, but I also know without the perfect solution tunnelling will either become an even worse issue or won't be affected at all.
I really don't understand why people are so opposed to killers having a system like what I suggested tho. It not only de-incentivises tunnelling but also incentivises getting back into chase (the most fun part of the game for the majority of the playerbase). And a version of your idea might work (even in conjunction with a version of mine) but I feel like its not the fix you think it is and is just a flat nerf to killer.
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instead of killing one person you just burn through everyone's health states with as many slowdown perks as possible (especially against altruistic teams)?
Ok? I mean, the whole point of this system is to spread hooks and encourage the killer to burn through hook stages. The least efficient way to do that is to camp and tunnel, because you want to be working on your next hook while someone is still on hook.
This basically just forces killers to discover pressure as a slowdown force. Being concerned that slowdown will still make things to easy just confirms that I don't really think this is so impactful that killers will need that many buffs. The system works, because you can play this way more or less right now, on live. People don't, because tunneling is easier.
Also what's to stop that being used in completely honest chases with no tunnelling?
If you're already spreading hooks, then the system works exactly like live. In fact, hooking each survivor exactly once is effectively doing both: burning through hook stages and "countering the system" since no one even has a first hook to "donate".
There's no concern in a "fair or honest" game, because that plays out exactly the same. This is, honestly, the kind of gameplay this system is actively promoting: spread hooks, give everyone a bit of chase, and you get map pressure and get to act like the system doesn't even exist.
It only comes into play in hard camping and tunneling situations, and makes those situations less efficient ways to play the game.
That's part of the flexibility of the system, honestly is that is leaves player agency completely intact. Killers can choose to camp over survivor or tunnel them to death, it just isn't as efficient as spreading pressure.
You *can* still camp a hook, but since you're going to be there for about 7 minutes, the gens will all be done and the gates open.
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so it specifically procs if a survivor gets hooked twice in a row? if that's the case I may have just misread your idea and its pretty good. I'd prefer a system like my own since it can't really be weaponised without a survivor actively killing themself but yours would also work to reduce tunnelling and probably pretty well.
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I would put the shared 12 hook states instead of 3 per survivor. If you tunnel 1 single survivor, they could be hooked 12 times if you don't hook anyone else (they's still die if they get to second hooks stage by not being unhooked)
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