The real problem with tunneling/slugging is solo queue, S tiers and perks.
Background: 6.5k hours including 10k games as survivor, including many solo games, and 5k killer games. I'm not the casual player the 9.2.0 PTB was aimed at, but I agree there are issues with the survivor experience (9.2.0 was not the solution).
Tunneling and slugging is made worse by:
- Solo queue survivor
- S tier killers (think Billy, Blight, Nurse) or killers uniquely good at slugging or tunneling (think Twins)
- Killer/surv perks that either: reward/encourage tunneling/slugging; punish killers for splitting hooks; or are incredibly strong whether or not the killer tunnels.
If you want to "solve" tunneling and slugging, you should improve on these issues first. The 9.2.0 PTB was a clunky bandaid that:
- Didn't help that much against S tiers (the ones survs would need it most against)
- Was confusing, ask a casual player when gens would block or when survs would get a repair boost
- Was too easy to use offensively, often rewarding bad gameplay like running into the killer when death hook.
Summary of suggested improvements
- Bring solo surv closer to swf surv - e.g. see perks and anticamp progress of teammates, a ping system/comm wheel ("I'll unhook", "Heal me please.") and even an ingame voice chat.
- Give unhooked survs immunity to powers (not M1s) and no collision for 10 seconds (disabled endgame).
- Nerf S tiers, either in general or in situations where tunneling/slugging is happening.
- (If you want a hard anti-tunnel mechanic) When rehooking a survivor with no one else inbetween, make their hook stage 20 seconds longer (disabled endgame).
- Redesign killer and survivor perks to reward the killer splitting pressure and/or punish for tunneling.
Minimise confusing band-aid mechanics and allow players to make meaningful/impactful decisions that vary from game to game. Having to think about strategy beyond "unga bunga 1v1s the whole match" is good! Examples include: Who gets the unhook? Where do we position the tunnel out to delay their death? Do I unhook instantly vs billy/oni to guarantee safe unhook or wait the full hook duration to delay their tunnel out?
This PTB removed options and decisions on both sides, making the game less interesting. Other games will punish me if I make a mistake and reward me for playing well, but this PTB handheld survivors over a safety net to protect them from any mistakes. The tunneling punishments are particularly egregious.
I also think slapping a basekit perk on every problem is confusing and lazy.
Solo Survivor
Buff solo surv up to swf. Role strength in order is usually SWF Surv > Killer > Solo Surv, and I've personally noticed almost a 20% difference in escape rate between playing in a swf and solo.
- Let me see my teammates perks. The very worst SWFs can communicate their perks but solo survivors are left clueless. I want to know if the Ace rushing to the unhook has Deliverance/We'll Make It or maybe I want them to know I have BT/Babysitter and should unhook. I once fought with a Jeff because we both had Autodidact and wanted to heal each other first, and we didn't know.
- Let me see anti-camp progress. If it's ticking up I know the killer is camping, and if it's full I know I can just do gens and let them sit on hook for the full timer. Again, even bad SWFs can communicate this info very easily.
- Add a ping system or comm wheel. The MOST frustrating thing in this game is wanting something to happen in solo queue, but being unable to communicate it. Useful pings could be "Killer nearby", "Let's split up!", "Stick together".
- Add voice chat in game.
These ideas bridge gaps in INFORMATION that even bad SWFs can communicate, often resulting in more efficient gameplay but only if the survivors have the skills to follow up with well executed play. In contrast, the PTB changes were brain-off and free.
Anti Tunnel
I think playing around tunneling makes the game more interesting from a macro POV, but usually feels worse in solo queue vs S tiers bringing strong perks like Pain Res.
In PTB, anti-tunnel was too punishing for killer and too easy to use offensively, often rewarding terrible survivor gameplay like running into the killer off death hook. Just watch this minute from Hens' showcase:
https://www.twitch.tv/videos/2557897625?t=3h53m3s
Survivors should lose collision and be immune to survivor powers (not M1s) for 10 seconds off hook. This removes offensive BT bodyblocking and certain killers being able to use their powers to tunnel off hook without hurting M1s too much. Examples coming to mind are Dracula holding hellfire at hook, Unknown UVX, and Huntress double taps.
S tiers in general should also probably just be nerfed - no one really complains about a Doctor tunneling, it's always a Billy, Blight, Kaneki etc - aka high mobility and/or strong chase power.
If you want a hard basekit anti-tunnel - if someone gets 1st and 2nd hooked with no one else in between give them a 20 second longer hook stage. This is a stronger anti-tunnel because survivors are actually immune on hook for a full gen timer, and it can't be used offensively.
Anti Slug
99% of the time when I've had problems with slugging, I was solo queue and the killer had knockout, was playing an S tier like Billy/Blight or playing a uniquely good slugger like Twins and Singularity. Improve solo queue information (above) and tweak killer specific issues before introducing clunky basekit anti-slug.
Some killer specific tweaks include:
- Billy/Blight - Debuff when 2 or more slugs that reduces power recovery or depletes overdrive faster
- Singularity - lose slipstreamed when downed
- Twins - I don't know, whoever fixes this deserves a Nobel Peace Prize.
I think a "notorious slugger" that's in a good spot is Oni - his design rewards more power when hooking, takes some power charge when downing, and also encourages him to pick someone up to stop his power, lest he lose all his power.
Otherwise, slugging doesn't feel like a big issue but on the flip side, sometimes you get forced to slug thanks to perks like Flip Flop, BGP, DS, Breakdown (or in PTB, the anti-tunnel punishments).
Please never add basekit tenacity. It's too strong and it removes an interesting decision survivors have to make between recovering or crawling to a pallet/open for a save.
Perk Changes
The above issues are driven by perks. Look at Knock Out as a horror story and a success story. Pre nerf, it was too good for slugging (all of the Slug Merchant complaints were driven by Knockout and her undetectable btw) in a way that uniquely punished solo survivors, and now post nerf: slugging is significantly harder without affecting the average game that didn't have knock out, and without providing another offensive tool for free.
Many killer perks should be reworked to reward splitting pressure and be less effective when tunneling someone out. I often hear people say "oh I need these slowdowns for pressure" or "oh I need to tunnel someone out for pressure", the core issue is you can do both. A common scenario is an S tier (or really anyone) tunnels some solo surv out and then plays the chillest 3v1 game of their life with perks like Pain Res DMS Eruption.
In other words, I want perks to force people to make a decision between tunneling someone out or getting maximum value from their perks. NOT BOTH.
Ideas, counterbuff where necessary:
- Pain Res should deactivate when a survivor dies.
- Ruin should be 150% but decrease to 100% when a survivor dies.
- DMS should not activate if hooking someone twice in a row.
- Grim Embrace should deactivate when a survivor dies.
- No Way Out no longer gives stacks once a survivor dies.
- Dying Light rework. Give ALL survivors a 3% slowdown stack when hooking a different person. Remove 2 stacks if hooking someone twice in a row. No longer gains stacks once a survivor dies. Remove obsession aspect (and its buffs).
Survivor perks could also be buffed and nerfed in a similar manner.
- Deliverance is an S tier perk that punishes you for spreading your hooks and is best countered by ignoring the unhooker and tunneling out the unhook. Please rework this perk.
- Desperate Measures should also buff based on dead survivors.
- Lightweight, Self Preservation, Dance With Me could all last longer when on death hook/being tunneled.
- This Is Not Happening - make it an anti tunnel perk (because everyone has access to it).
Sorry for the novel, thank you if you got this far.
Comments
-
I believe in the pinging system over adding voicechat. I think that alone would be a significant boost like when they added being able to see what others are doing. Voicechat would just break the immersion of everything in the game as well as make playing survivor more annoying as theres no shortage of people you know would sit there blaring music or swearing at you everytime you miss a skillcheck or run the killer to their generator by accident or just general bming. But the ping system worked well in mobile and didnt make survivors any more overpowering than they alredy were, just helped with communication since there werent many mobile swfs (not even sure if you could swf on mobile.)
7 -
I especially like your suggestion of a pinging system. This would also help deaf and hard-of-hearing players if someone is able to hear footsteps of a stealthy killer - "Killer Nearby". I also agree with the above comment on voicechat, as that would be a disaster.
In addition to your idea under the "Solo Survivor" list, lets place the icons of "exposed", "hemorrhage", etc. next to the survivor's portrait. This could add some communication that some players know about while others do not - like Friends 'Til the End or Sloppy Butcher.
I also liked your suggestion on longer hook times for those that are getting tunneled. The title for "This is Not Happening" is also very appropriate, haha. Change the perk entirely — "Spine Chill" could be in thrown in there as well. I don't see anyone using them.
4 -
These are pretty smart and much less intrusive and convoluted ideas than what BHVR tried to fist into the game.
That being said absolutely no to voice chat. I don't even like the ping idea for how immersion breaking and sweatier the game would become, but maybe it's necessary.
1 -
I agree voice chat has some problems and probably isn't the right call, which is why I put it last in that list. That said, it would have a mute option so toxic/annoying people could just be muted.
That said, more than anything I just want to be able to see my teammates' perks and anti-camp progress.
3 -
I agree voice chat has some problems and probably isn't the right call, which is why I put it last in that list. That said, it would have a mute option so toxic/annoying people could just be muted.
That said, more than anything I just want to be able to see my teammates' perks and anti-camp progress.
0 -
Can't speak for every killer main, but I think this was good. Singularity is one of my three most played killers, and not everyone would agree but I think removing the slipstream when downed is good.
-2 -
100% agree that solo needs to be buffed to be in line with SWF, i play soloq so i know what its like. However, people dont want chat options, they even dont use the pre match lobby to attempt to communicate their perks. i used to say "running gen build" or something to let people know what i have but people dont bother to listen and just not interested. i recently said "running better together" please dont bring the killer to me when im 95% done on a gen" what happens? they bring the killer to me every time.
its like people want to win but dont want to win as a team they want to be able to do it alone and when they cant they complain about tunneling or slugging or op killers. i have people on my teams with no perks at all and then get annoyed when the killer brings their A game and wins.
You cant make people play as a team if they dont want to which is the key difference between solo and swf. swf are on the same page with the same goal. solo players might be trolling, or working on totems instead of gens or just want to meme and not always on the same page as the rest of the team. These things cant be solved unless bhvr changes it so survivors can win alone without teamwork, which obviously will mean swf would be untouchable.
0 -
It's the same issue as being straddled with a random team as any online game. Human beings have volition. They do stuff they want to do that makes sense to them, not what you want them do it. It's an. Intractable problem and I'd argue, not a problem at all. The world would be a less interesting place if everybody just did predictable stuff all the time.
3 -
true but as a solo player i dont think the fault of teams losing lays at the hands of the killer or the tactics they use. it lays in the survivors hands as a whole. that being said, out of 75 matches this month so far i have escape rate of over 50% as a solo player that runs gen builds… raises the question, is tunneling and slugging really an issue at all? not for me and im no means a go survivor lol
0 -
Communicating perks in the pre match lobby has always felt mediocre at best. Half the survivors are probably alt-tabbed and the rest are going to immediately forget what someone said. This is why just being able to see your teammates' perks would eliminate this issue.
Better Together points to a whole 'nother issue with the game: generator aura perks are completely overloaded, making it harder for solo (and even swf) survs to understand what's going on. It's not really an issue as killer, but if I see a yellow gen as survivor it could be anything from Wiretap/Blast Mine to Troubleshooter, Lucky Star or even Trail of Torment. I'm never going to assume a yellow gen means Better Together. And then perks with other gen colours like Deja Vu/Rookie Spirit will block/be blocked by other colours based on whatever highlights first.
I do think Better Together should show your aura, not the generator's, like the Guide class in the first 2v8.
2 -
Communicating perks in the pre match lobby has always felt mediocre at best. Half the survivors are probably alt-tabbed and the rest are going to immediately forget what someone said. This is why just being able to see your teammates' perks would eliminate this issue.
Better Together points to a whole 'nother issue with the game: generator aura perks are completely overloaded, making it harder for solo (and even swf) survs to understand what's going on. It's not really an issue as killer, but if I see a yellow gen as survivor it could be anything from Wiretap/Blast Mine to Troubleshooter, Lucky Star or even Trail of Torment. I'm never going to assume a yellow gen means Better Together. And then perks with other gen colours like Deja Vu/Rookie Spirit will block/be blocked by other colours based on whatever highlights first.
I do think Better Together should show your aura, not the generator's, like the Guide class in the first 2v8.
0 -
Thats part of the problem, half the survivors probably alt-tab instead of making use of what little benefits they do have. understandable that yellow gen could mean anything really which is why i specifically would say running better together so they know yellow gen means im on it, dont bring the killer to me. i agree survivors should be able to see eachothers perks but i dont think it would do anything because people that go in solo often just dont try or even want to work as a team. like the people that run no perks at all or the meme players. you just know they would look at my perks and think "ok cool" then think nothing more about it. As much as solo could be buffed by offering what swf have like knowledge of perks it will never equal swf due to the players.
Also you just know people would lobby dodge if they see someone with meme builds or going for adept.
-2 -
To be perfectly honest, the immersion has been broken for years now. Less atmosphere, more comp-focused play, and a host of content that doesn't match the theme of the game at all. Personally I think the funniest part of adding comms would be seeing Survivors ignoring the trial entirely to stand there and yell at each other with crows over their heads. 😝
1 -
I've not had chance to read through it all yet (but I will!), just wanted to say thank you for taking the time to write such a detailed post - it's very much appreciated.
4 -
As a billy main i think Doom Engravings is more of a problem than overdrive. But everything else looks good imo
0 -
Yeah, builds should absolutely only be shown in game to prevent lobby dodging.
Solo surv will never be as strong as swf and that's okay (that said, half the strength of swf is being able to guarantee a strong team with no weak links). What matters is meaningful buffs to solo surv that don't affect swf too much.
Another anti-tunneling perk buff - Fast Track should get more stacks if a survivor dies.
0 -
All things that should've been in the game already
0 -
There is a lot of good stuff there, I agree with a lot of it. My initial thoughts if stuff to mention: -
- Showing Survivor perks is fine, but they should only be revealed on the HUD when the game starts to avoid lobby dodging. It may also be nice to have the option to hide particular perk slots, so that people can't DC immediately just cause you brought Sole Survivor or Weaving Spiders. There are too many petty people to trust this feature flat.
- Unhooked Survivors being immune to killer m2 I assume takes the form of Mettle of Man? It's an interesting idea, amd does little to hurt the likes of Trapper, Myers, Ghost Face, even Legion to degree benefits, while the likes of Huntress, Pyramid Head, Dracula and Wesker get diminished.
- The pings idea is great, but voice chat for me is a solid nope, at least not without a very easily accessible option to mute everyone. I've played online games for 22 years, and very rarely has anyone had anything worthwhile to say in public voice chat. Usually it's people just pissing and moaning at you, making annoying noises, or telling you to shove it (in very colourful ways) if you try to suggest something constructive. There is also the issue I don't trust myself not to blow up at someone over comms for being a SoloQ dunce... right now I'm protected by the fact my rants about my amoeba brained teammates is safely locked behind a lack of voice comms.
- Not such a fan of contextual killer power behaviour, since it's a little inelegant a solution, but I understand the logic. Killer balance around these issues I feel is probably better to leave as a discussion about the strength of those killers directly, with very careful assessment of their traits... though your assessment of Oni was very pleasant and insightful to read.
0 -
What they said :D 👌
0 -
I wish s tiers like blight and nurse lost tokens when they were stunned(like kaneki). They also should not be able to gain tokens for 3 seconds after being stunned in any regard. I dont really understand how wraith( a B-tier killer) is punished severely for being stunned while cloaked, but blight can ignore every stun in the game no problem. Wesker takes 5ish seconds to gain one dash token while blight(and nurse) takes 2 ish seconds per token. That is wildly unfair.
I also wish 4 man swfs were forced to use 16 unique perks. No overlapping perks in the lobby. This would provide engaging gameplay.0
