Feedback: The Nerf to Shape was Unnecessary
Before you say it isn't a nerf, watch Scott Jund's video to explain how every aspect of this killer was nerfed. In my opinion, I agree with Scott's assessment.
Two major things need to change with the new Shape.
First, you need to remove the animation when switching to Slaughtering Strike. Get rid of it. It was unnecessary and makes his power nearly useless by giving everyone time to set up a pallet stun.
Second, you need to remove the cooldown to Slaughtering Strike. It already has an induction, it doesn't also need a cooldown.
I think these two things are necessary to even bring him back to near pre-nerf situation.
Then there are several other things that I think should be changed to improve the Shape:
Remove the stalking decay. If a player switches to Pursuer Mode while not having full stalk, that is the only time that the stalk meter should reduce to 1/2 of maximum.
Make the Scratched Mirror a Green tier add-on. It is nearly useless due to the map offering nerf. Make the Hair Bow the second Iridescent add-on. This is more in line with a killer that has two simultaneously usable Iri add-ons.
Return the stalking distance to what it was pre-nerf.
Comments
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First, you need to remove the animation when switching to Slaughtering Strike. Get rid of it. It was unnecessary and makes his power nearly useless by giving everyone time to set up a pallet stun.
No thanks, one of the main reasons Old Myers sucked was the 99 gameplay.
Here in Modern Dead by Daylight we give Survivors a chance to gain some distance or a fair warning before giving the Killer such a Powerful Tool as Slaughtering Strike.Please BHVR DO NOT remove the Cooldown it isnt fair to new people to find an undetectable Killer and then boom instantly dead. The average player does not want to play against that.
Second, you need to remove the cooldown to Slaughtering Strike. It already has an induction, it doesn't also need a cooldown.
Absolutely not, with a little practise you can easily hit Survivors very fast with Slaughtering Strike. Having no cooldown would make Killers who master this skill insufferable.
Here is what BHVR should do instead of doing changes this soon, Look at the statistics not only at Player Feelings.
Myers is definitely stronger than before and way more action-packed. Loads more actions or progress per min.-21 -
How is he exactly stronger?
Look at the statistics not only at Player Feelings.
You are really suggesting stats balancing… Lol
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ye dunno what to tell you, old myers was a challenge to play against, as survivor i won some i lost some. new myers, i have never lost a match against him. says hes been nerfed big time when a mediocre survivor like me can make a mockery of myers and still escape. and its not just me escaping most matches its 3 escape. im failing to see how this killer was buffed when all myers so far (in my matches) have struggled to get more than 1k. more action packed? yes. stronger? not a chance.
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What do you mean 'exactly stronger'?
You cant figure out how Myers is stronger with his new changes and you are looking for advice on how to use them?You are really suggesting stats balancing… Lol
You are suggesting they should not look at stats? LMAO.
(in my matches)
This part of your comment is kind of the issue isnt it,
how are we to know that you didnt face Myers's who didnt know what to do? Are you gonna asses that for us?Nah I agree, there isn't much that can be said and BHVR looking at the stats will show where people are struggling.
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You cant figure out how Myers is stronger with his new changes and you are looking for advice on how to use them?
Well, by looking at his changes I would say he is objectively worse, but you claim he is definetly stronger, so I expect you see something I don't.
So tell me why is his current version stronger. You for sure have some reasoning behind it and I would like to know.
You are suggesting they should not look at stats? LMAO.
They were doing exactly this for several years and that's how pig was nerfed multiple times and Nurse was claimed to be fine.
That's how several addons got nerfed (Demo, Nemesis), when all other addons were useless.Looking at spreadsheed is not a good way to balance. They should look at stats, but it should not be primary tool. I believe players feedback is more important.
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we can only go on our own experiences and so far im seeing very few people say myers has been buffed. but a lot saying its a nerf, this is backed by my own experience in the game and the experience of others in my games. what do you have to realistically demonstrate myers has been buffed? whats your experience been like against or as myers?
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Well, by looking at his changes I would say he is objectively worse
There is no way you can determine objectivity from that, none of us could.
BHVR could by looking at the stats when they stabilize. Even if you think stats mean less.So tell me why is his current version stronger. You for sure have some reasoning behind it and I would like to know.
Ok, his Undetectable on Command, ability to shred pallets is a huge reason he is better in my opinion. less time wasted elsewhere is more time to make a play that matters. But I thought this should be obvious from the changes.
we can only go on our own experiences and so far im seeing very few people say myers has been buffed.
but a lot saying its a nerf,Like I explained to Pet, postulating the objectivity regarding these changes is meaningless, but both individual experiences can be true at the same time. Depending on what MMR we would be at the changes could affect us both positively and negatively.
It also depends on how much you go looking for other opinions, there are people who have been having good experiences with Myers and they have said so. I see such messages on critical posts of the Rework on Reddit all the time, getting disliked into oblivion ofc. I usually don't care what the Community says, because often they are wrong and I'm not supposed to be the arbiter of that.
what do you have to realistically demonstrate myers has been buffed?
Well stats is what you would need, which none of us have.
I don't even have gameplay recorded of Old Myers, so I cant demonstrate differences either.whats your experience been like against or as myers?
My experience has been quite a lot of 4Ks until I faced people who play better and then it slowed down, now its 2Ks on average.
Against Myers, my solo Q team mates was rolled in dough, deep fried and eaten whole, but that's not really different from normal gameplay before this patch.I did record a few of my games, it will demonstrate my experience at least.
But it will take time to get really good at that Slaughtering Strike.-3 -
if we are going by stats then ideally my kill rate would be a good stat to go by? pre rework p100 myers i was getting 3/4k almost every match and have done for years which is why my kill rate is 80 to 90% and often go against 3 or 4 man swf on a regular basis so im not even getting soloq, if my kill rate dropped then it should indicate a nerf?
like i said, before rework soloq would often get demolished because people feed stalk but now soloq players are having a much easier time, im not seeing anyone saying myers is op like they used to say pre rework, i mean there is a handful of people that seem to claim he is op after rework but it really does take some searching to find these posts.
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he is rig he h and because of that we should buff the nurse asap since in that stats she is not top 5 .
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Didn't read the whole thread but I personally don't agree with slaughtering strike having no transition animation. Myers was known to be very uninteractive because he could stalk everyone and instantly down you without any way to tell he had 99'ed tier 3. I'd rather see him buffed elsewhere than removing this, personally.
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This idea that we need stats to objectively say he was nerfed or buffed is false. This is not the case because we have the actual data already. We don't need stats, we can literally compare before and after.
Before rework there was no animation switching to tier 3. After rework there is an animation that not only takes time but announces to everyone, RUN!
Before rework there was no delay on swinging your weapon during tier 3. After rework there is a delay.
Before rework there was a basic cooldown on attacking in tier 3, like every other killer has. After cooldown there is a 6 SECOND cooldown.
Before rework his power lasted for 60 seconds. After rework his power lasts for 40 seconds.
Before rework his stalk range limit was larger.
Before rework he could hold his stalk indefinitely.
Before rework his terror radius in tier 2 was smaller.
Before rework he never had to return to tier 1. He stalked from tier 2 to tier 3 again and again.
You cannot come here and convince anyone that those lines of text are not facts. They are facts. They are nerfs. It is indisputable. If you are still unsure, you have an inability to understand.
These are clearly nerfs. Unnecessary and unarguably nerfs.
The only change Shape needed was removal of the Tombstone features. Instead we got a nerf across the board.
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if we are going by stats then ideally my kill rate would be a good stat to go by?
Why would you personal kill rate be anything to go by?
I dont think you understand why we look at stats at all if you make such a statement, its not personal stats that matter but rather big trends.every match and have done for years which is why my kill rate is 80 to 90% and often go against 3 or 4 man swf on a regular basis so im not even getting soloq, if my kill rate dropped then it should indicate a nerf
And so your personal Killrate dropped and you claim you have fully used and learnt everything there is to know about the new Myers after 4 days, You are at the maximum peak of what new Myers can possibly ever do?
Cause that is what you would have to be for that statement to more than just personal experience.Even so if that is true BHVR could buff Myers later,
but I remain skeptical at best at your claim at having figured out new Myers fully.-2 -
There is no way you can determine objectivity from that, none of us could.
But you can determinate he is definetly stronger?
ability to shred pallets is a huge reason he is better in my opinion
Ability to shred pallets might be good in theory, the issue is he is quite slow in it, so it's not that difficult to just stun him instead.
his Undetectable on Command
That has limited value and not really that better to previous version anyway. It was easy for him to create TR 6m…
If this is all you can come up with, then he is definetly worse.
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Myers is a joke right now, pretty much Bubba 2.0… just pre drop pallets and you are golden. He only gets time for 4 hits, I tested this in custom. So with the new maps filled with pallets… you only need to find 4 to not go down to his instadown :D
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ability to shred pallets
… but you can be stunned-
Undetectable on Command
has limited value
I'm beginning to think you might just be bad at playing new Myers if that is your assessment. In your hands perhaps.
or just super unserious about playing new Myers, Ill leave you to your defiance then jeez.-6 -
We can objectively measure that new myers is weaker.
Changes: 6 (7 counting addons)
Buffs: 6
Nerfs: 12
He got far more nerfs than buffs and with majority opinion being that he's bad then it's safe to say this rework didn't make Myers stronger.
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Or I just have better reactions than you and I can stun him from his power, it's just lunge speed…
If you compare it with other killers who can destroy pallets, he is way slower than Demo, Blight, or Billy, which makes it way easier to stun him instead of letting him destroy pallet.
Unlike Bubba he can't really fake his movement to get you drop the pallet, he is forced to go forward.I doubt you even played him tho.
I have definetly not spend hours on new Myers, because I don't find it fun, but Scott did and I consider Scott to be at least decent killer player. Can't say that about you.
Post edited by BoxGhost on0 -
If you are not willing to spend the time playing the game, then you will not know. Holy Heck My Guy.
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I mean, you act like you know, yet fail to back up your claims and try to cover it as skill issue.
You say his pallet breaking makes him good, yet his pallet breaking is worst from all killer powers in DBD.
Even his stealth is worse than before rework.I don't need hundreds of games to figure out what is worse and what is better about him. And in my opinion there are more things worse than better.
Myers was not that strong killer to begin with, so I fail to see why would you need to nerf multiple aspects of his kit to balance few buffs.
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You outright admitted you refuse to play him. Not giving time to adapt and become better.
I even showed you guys actual gameplay of me playing him, backing up my experience, while you can show me nothing.There is no way we can turn this conversation constructive now when you refuse to play him. Goodbye.
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You outright admitted you refuse to play him. Not giving time to adapt and become better.
I said I have not spend hours on him, because I find his rework to be failure. I have played old Myers quite a lot.
while you can show me nothing
I can outsource that and just show you Scott video :) Why do something what was already done?
There is no way we can turn this conversation constructive now when you refuse to play him
Well, I want to address the reason why I have stopped playing him. I don't need to keep playing as him to understand issues of his rework…
Not like I give gameplay much of a value, especially in public games. I can still regularly 4k as Skully, but it doesn't change the fact she is currently worst killer in DBD.
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i agree i have not mastered myers fully after 4 days, i did master tombstone myers after 4 days though lol. the skill ceiling on tombstone myers was pretty low so it didnt take muck to pick up, play and get 4k. new myers seems to require time….clearly thats a nerf.
You said it yourself, its big trends that count. how do we get to big trends? when enough people add to the stats to create a big trend. looking at the big picture you have to take into account all players which would include my stats as an indicator. if people were saying they are now getting 3 or 4k easier than before then they would also be taken into account.
points that suggest myers is nerfed
- personal experience
- the number of people being very vocal regarding its a nerf
- other peoples stats and experience (might not be a big enough trend for you but its a strong indicator atleast)
points that suggest myers has been buffed…..
- the very few people that claim hes easier
- …..no just that 1 no personal stats from people saying "now im getting 4k but before i struggled to get 2k" lol
you dont need to see cold hard stats after months of analysis to work out some outcomes, sometimes the pattern and indicators are clear well before hand and can be easily predicted. its like saying "putting your hand in fire will burn you but we need to wait for the stats to show this because there are a few people that claim it doesnt burn you lol"
If stats later show myers had a buff i will say im wrong but the evidence SO FAR strongly indicates hes suffered a pretty hefty nerf based on 1. my own experience. 2 based on others experience and 3. based on the stats of other peoples matches showing they are getting less kills now than before the rework.
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while you can show me nothing
ability to shred pallets is a huge reason he is better in my opinion
Wow, so strong and definetly not easy to ignore as survivor.
While:
- you are slower in T1
- stalk has limited range
- you can't instantly pop T3
- you overall use it way slower, so harder to mindgame than with M1
- Weaker addons
- you can't stalk in T2 (kinda useless unless survivors are injured)
- your instadown attack has cooldown
- you are not M1 killer anymore, so less perk options
- when stalk meter is full you are forced into T2, which has higher TR than before
- you also have higher TR when you are in T3
- survivors got back notifications about your stalking progress
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You said it yourself, its big trends that count. how do we get to big trends? when enough people add to the stats to create a big trend. looking at the big picture you have to take into account all players which would include my stats as an indicator. if people were saying they are now getting 3 or 4k easier than before then they would also be taken into account.
Unfortunately just making a list of thing you heard is not really what it takes to gather a big trend.
You got the part right about listening to what the Community says, but then you cross reference that with stats and survey data.Could also just be everyone is kicking and screaming about it right now, and that it will be adopted in time.
I am definitely adopting Myers right now. How could you account for that with your lil study? Trick Question, You cant.Ill grant you, when everyone stands perfectly still like would not happen in normal gameplay then yes, its easy to counter. Idk why you would think that would be a convincing argument, but yeah we can grant that…
Whats next?
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am i right in that you think myers has been buffed but provide no evidence or argument to back this up but instead try to debunk evidence that suggests he has been nerfed? if your going on stats and numbers like a computer then what stats and numbers do you have to suggest he has been buffed?
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when everyone stands perfectly still like would not happen in normal gameplay
You never stand under pallet waiting for what killer is going to do?
Ignoring list of why he is worse I see. Well as positive you said basically pallet shred and stealth on command.
Kinda funny, when you have such a good stealth, yet you had to play with Unforseen…
What's even better, do you know how many pallets you managed to destroy with your shred in that video? 1 and it was already predropped
You say it makes him better, but survivors can easily react to it and stun you from it, if they are at least decent. It's just terrible compare to any other pallet destroying power.4 -
Not exactly I already provided arguments for that, but you guys just dismissed them because you don't think its useful.
Which isnt an argument. Other than that we already discussed how none of us will have any tangible evidence for one way or the other, only BHVR will get closest to that. And then I got the other guy to admit he wont even play it, I think you also managed to do that.So I don't know why you are asking for evidence you should know I cant give you or repeat arguments you already dismissed.
You never stand under pallet waiting for what killer is going to do?
Against Wraith maybe when its safe, but no I run around to gain distance.
I'm not going to let a bad connection ruin my games.Ignoring list of why he is worse I see.
Im not ignoring your list,
I just don't see how valid in any way it could be if you have admitted to not having spent barely any time on him.Kinda funny, when you have such a good stealth, yet you had to play with Unforseen…
I use a randomizer website to pick my perks. I didn't HAD to play with it.
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I just don't see how valid in any way it could be if you have admitted to not having spent barely any time on him.
You are not capable of understanding what's written in patch notes without testing it for serveral days?
Kinda sad… Well, I don't have issue doing it.Against Wraith maybe when its safe, but no I run around to gain distance.
If I am not injured, I have no reason to drop the pallet. Game even gives me sound to know when he is ready to dash.
at worst he will M1 and that's very good for me.Which isnt an argument.
So list of what is worse and even showing you why shred is not big deal is not an argument and explaining it too.
But claiming he has shred, so he is better, while your own video doesn't back it up is supposed to be valid…5 -
you havnt provided arguments which support myers buff at all lol. you have only attempted to debunk and invalidate anyone that suggests myers got nerfed which you yourself seem to be dismissing anything that anyone says. You maintain this "only bhvr will get close to that" mindset but you cant seriously be saying only bhvr can tell people if its a buff or nerf. bhvr gets their stats from the people, the very same people that are making it abundantly clear its a nerf. My stats mean nothing, the number of nerf post and threads on this forum alone that out number the buffs 10 to 1 apparently means nothing, people stating what they have seen and experienced means nothing because only bhvr have access to stats.
you have flat out ignored the fact that it took me days to get regular 4k with old myers but its taking more time and more effort to get the same result with reowork myers. im not saying its definitive proof its a nerf or buff but its certainly an indicator, maybe im the outlier and the exception to the rule. myself and others have provided you with more than adequate arguments to support myers has been nerfed (which you dismiss) but apparently your non argument of debunking others automatically proves its not a nerf its a buff.
"My experience has been quite a lot of 4Ks until I faced people who play better and then it slowed down, now its 2Ks on average.
Against Myers, my solo Q team mates was rolled in dough, deep fried and eaten whole, but that's not really different from normal gameplay before this patch."This statement and the 1 clip showing a match is the only evidence you have provided which both actually support my argument lol.
- you admit that kill rate slowed down to 2ks on average…. yet tombstone myers generally gets 3/4k on average. for this to support your argument you would need to be getting less than 2k on average with old myers which is highly doubtful based on the stats that bhvr released, the same stats you whole heartedly swear by as solid proof.
- the clip you provided shows 4k with 1 gen left. old myers would have gotten 4k at 3, 4 or 5 gens remaining especially v soloq players. The fact survivors managed to get it down to 1 gen left also shows they are making more progress v new myers than the old version.
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"Glorified Pig's ambush" is good describe to this rework. If they won't revert him (doubt it), he needs whole list of buffs just to be very mid killer.
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You are not capable of understanding what's written in patch notes without testing it for several days?
Kinda sad… Well, I don't have issue doing itYou claim this, but have no evidence to support it.
So list of what is worse and even showing you why shred is not big deal is not an argument and explaining it too.
But claiming he has shred, so he is better, while your own video doesn't back it up is supposed to be valid…No, a list does not much convincing do. Its your opinion and I get you want to be heard, but I don't share it.
No, showing a specific example of standing still does not do that either.
No, that video was not supposed to show the usefulness of the Shred. It was to substantiate my experience.Would it help you to see me get value from Shreds? Why?
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You claim this, but have no evidence to support it.
Well, if you can treat personal experience as an "argument", so can I.
I love theory crafting and I am rarely wrong, so don't really have need to validate my predictions for multiple days just to stay at the same outcome.
If multiple people were having opposite experience, then I would go and validate my opinion more to see what's going on and either change my opinion on the topic, or find things to back up my view, but so far you are the only one who thinks otherwise in this case, so I don't have need to do it.But don't worry devs also have an issue with theory crafting, so you are not alone :)
Would it help you to see me get value from Shreds?
Well, you claimed it as main reason, why he is supposed to be stronger than before, so it's supposed to be such a big deal that it overshadows all the nerfs he got, so I would kinda expect to see it to be used and get results...
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Lets clear this, We are all providing weak arguments based on our Personal Experience. Which is a guess we have about what is wrong, BHVR is the only ones who will get to tell for sure though, we can only guess based on our personal experiences. BHVR get their stats from how we play, but sometimes the what is said does not match up with the numbers, this is why BHVR cross-reference with statistics.
And no, that does not mean your experience means nothing, its valuable feedback to BHVR even if they are weak arguments. BHVR like to hear bad arguments too, both give them inspiration, ambition and invites them to develop solutions.
But between us Two Subjective Experiences don't mean much to each other, in both same ways we are unconvinced by the other having a different experience. An argument based on only Personal Experience is just the same, a weak argument.
We both made clear that we are not convinced by each other's personal experience and both of us remain skeptical in return.And no, me pointing out a problem with those arguments and how you structure them, does not make my own suddenly 'not weak', that would be dishonest. But then again, if I have given indication that I believed that to be the case, then that was wrong of me.
Speaking of problems with arguments, No not every game will have absurd shred value, I don't expect that, why do you?
I had more Shred value in this game, but I doubt it will be enough for you guys. And I was absurdly lucky in the beginning too.
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so pretty much offered no evidence to support your opinion, not even your own stats. i can think the moon is made of cheese but how do i expect people to take that seriously without showing anything to substantiate that claim? my opinion right? im entitled to it, sure. does it make it true? no. i mean your putting a lot of faith in bhvr ability to determine whats wrong and balance when they said they were going to do an anti tunnel update then they release a pro tunneling update…. im not convinced by your personal experience because from what you have shown and said your personal experience shows what i have been saying… myers got nerfed not buffed.
again your own argument, your own evidence showing gameplay shows survivors got down to the last gen. if you demolished them like tombstone myers have been doing (4k at 4 or 5 gen) you would have that experience to substantiate your claim he got buffed. Claiming you average out 2k is not exactly what i would a buff when myers players often had far better results before the rework, which is indicated by the stats, even the next clip you showed 1 gen remaining. Lots of myers players, myself included, pre rework were demolishing survivors solo and swf and 4 or 5 gens using tombstone. can you show this is still the case with the rework myers? That would atleast prove your point to some degree.
im really trying to see both sides here but im genuinely not seeing anything, stats, experience or otherwise to suggest any buffs. All im seeing is an argument for "can you 4k with myers"…yes you can. is it easier than before the rework? thats the bit your failing to explain and thats the crucial part to if myers has been nerfed or buffed.
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We are seriously complaining about old myers now lmao.
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You pretty much just ignored my entire explanation of why we cant very meaningfully substantiate any claim of balance, rather we can substantiate our personal experience by recorded it. If you are just gonna continue demanding evidence for my subjective opinion I think you will be disappointed.
i mean your putting a lot of faith in bhvr ability to determine whats wrong and balance when they said they were going to do an anti tunnel update then they release a pro tunneling update….
If I didn't think BHVR was doing the right things to make an entertaining game product, I would quit.
Has nothing to do with faith though, they have provided an excellent game for 9+ years.-2 -
"If I didn't think BHVR was doing the right things to make an entertaining game product, I would quit.Has nothing to do with faith though, they have provided an excellent game for 9+ years"
This statement says it all lol. What can anyone really say to someone that truly believes this statement?
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