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It's Feeling Like Unknown Keeps Being Beat Down for No Reason At All

IndigoNinja
IndigoNinja Member Posts: 12
edited October 4 in Feedback and Suggestions

First, I'd like to say that I LOVE the Unknown in Dead by Daylight, so this feedback is coming from a place of love for the Killer as not only a character but a playable Killer within DBD.

I'd like to first ask: What was the point of nerfing Vanishing Box a SECOND TIME?

I had to not only figure out the math of how DBD's Charge System works in terms of calculating progression bars in this game, but I had to further figure out how to calculate the "true" values of the detrimental changes that have been done to Vanishing Box.

All things considered, Vanishing Box was an ABYSMALLY strong addon on release, so the original nerf of it was fairly justified, if not a little steep.

But the second nerfing of this addon was simply overkill. Where 1 second of time equals 1 charge being applied to the Unknown's Hallucination timer, then it would take 45 charges, or 45 seconds, of time basekit for a Hallucination to passively drop in a trial.

With the current iteration of Vanishing Box, you're getting a PITIFUL 0.26 charges per second of time passing. This leads to a MASSIVE time increase of 45s to 99s before a Hallucination will spawn.**

I attempted to test how my matches went when playing with this addon and Footprint Cast, and it flat out feels like I'm intentionally shooting myself in the foot for running Vanishing Box. Even with me being able to get more of the Hallucination charged up with the passive Weakened from survivors completing gens, I felt as if I was missing half of my power in the form of the Hallucinations. In a single trial I was barely able to spawn 7 Hallucinations, but almost every single time these Hallucinations spawned in, the survivors were able to remove my ONLY form of mobility extremely freely.

But even if I was able to get Weakened from Vanishing Box, I'd have survivors hover around me while I'm trapped in an open space of the map, and because I don't have a Hallucination to teleport to break line of sight, I more or less am losing all the pressure I could ever manage to make, on top of the constant uphill battle of playing as Unknown against survivors that know how to play against the Killer. This is especially felt when you have a survivor following you around as the killer, and taking every single opportunity to cleanse every single hallucination that you just placed in a spot.

But it doesn't end there: the way Krasue was released has felt like a giant middle finger to Unknown players that have dedicated dozens, if not HUNDREDS of hours of play time into understanding things such as the nuance of the UVX's bounce logic for its projectile.

"Okay, what fixes would you like with your Killer?"

The Base Kit changes I want:

I want the total time needed to remove Weakened increased from 10s to 12s. Those extra 2s from the Weakened timer will add a little extra breathing room for the Killer in open spaces, filler tiles, and low-walled tiles.

Another change to the Killer I'd like would be to, hopefully, lower the cooldown of the UVX itself from 7s to 6s. Failing that, I'd like the charge time for the power to be reduced from 1s to 0.8s.

Additionally, another change I'd like for this Killer is to simply make the max projectile speed available much sooner, or flat out from the start of charging the power. According to the Wiki website, the projectile's speed starts out at 25m/s, and can ramp up to 50m/s. I want this to be increased to at least 35m/s, so that I'm encouraged to use my power at medium ranges.

At this time, I feel like the removal action doesn't add enough of a risk/reward for survivor, at this time I don't know what I'd like to change for it, but maybe an aura color change when a survivor is interacting with one? It'd be a subtle change, from white to yellow, to show that a survivor is interacting with a Hallucination, so that it's easy to see when out of chase and to continue another chase, but much harder to see/notice while in chase with a survivor.

One final change I'd like to hope for is the maximum look range to remove your weakened be lowered slightly, from 25m to 20m.



The Addon Changes I want:

Partially or completely revert the Vanishing Box Nerf. I don't necessarily want a full reversion of Vanishing box, I think the original nerf for it was fair considering that it was extremely strong against injured survivors that completed generators. While I still think that the extra timer for spawning a Hallucination longer is fair, having at 120% is far, far too much. If anything, I'd like it reverted back to the original nerf numbers of 80%.

OR, reduce the amount of charges gained from a survivor becoming Weakened from 10 charges to 5 charges for each survivor that becomes weakened, injured, and downed from UVX, and completely remove the longer Hallucination spawn timer.

This kind of counts as a base-kit change, but
please at this point remove Blurry Photo, and make the post-teleport cool down be 1.2 seconds. Simply change Blurry Photo into an entirely different effect, at this point anything is better than it being a terrible vestigial addon that's rotting away in the addon pool of most Unknown players' inventories.

…. And that's all the changes I can come up with at this time. I love, love, LOVE this Killer so much, and I and many other players have put in a lot of time to not only understand this character's kit, but to show the amount of love that we have for this character. There's so much nuance to the power that adds a level of reward for thinking smartly not only with managing your line of sight against survivors, as well as proper insight and estimation of distance, projectile interaction with the environment, and tracking survivors.

I'm not asking for much, I'm asking for little, tiny adjustments that will make this Killer feel so much better at higher skill-level lobbies.

Thank you for reading, I hope something akin to these adjustments can be made.

**[EDIT] This information and calculation is unfortunately wrong! In reality Vanishing Box doesn't reduce the passive charge rate, but increases the THRESHOLD of charges by 120%, which increases the needed charges/time needed to spawn in a Hallucination from 45 seconds or charges to 99 seconds or charges.This is STILL an absurd amount of charges needed to have access to an important and integral part of the power.

Also, specifically thanking @UndeddJester for their comment later down this thread and not only simplifying the math but also bringing up the information that allowed me to double-check my research and calculations.

Post edited by IndigoNinja on
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Comments

  • KeefCheif
    KeefCheif Member Posts: 146

    TLDR

  • IndigoNinja
    IndigoNinja Member Posts: 12

    @KeefCheif TLDR I'm tired of random addons getting nerfed to nothing and no QOL adjustments being made to the Killer.

    But Don't Worry We Can Look Up Now!

  • UndeddJester
    UndeddJester Member Posts: 4,945
    edited October 4

    This is a little complicated, because the add-on feeds directly into Unknowns resource management and grants him effectively "free" hallucination progress passively... however it is off of losing generators, so can only happen so many times... striking the right balance is hard.

    For anyone who is one of the uninitiated and wanting the full info on Unknown Hallucinations without looking it up.

    Screenshot_20251004_090006_Firefox.jpg

    Normal hallucinations:

    Screenshot_20251004_085706_Firefox.jpg

    Vanishing Box:

    Screenshot_20251004_085802_Firefox.jpg

    8.3.0 Vanishing Box:

    Hallucination Spawning time: 81 charges

    • 0 Weakened Survivors: +1 c/s or 81 seconds.
    • 1 Weakened Survivor: +1.25 c/s or 67.5 seconds.
    • 2 Weakened Survivors: +1.75 c/s or ~46.3 seconds.
    • 3 Weakened Survivors: +2.375 c/s or ~34.1 seconds.
    • 4 Weakened Survivors: +3.5 c/s or ~23.1 seconds.

    Homework for suggestions:

    To work out any new values for this add-on:

    Number of Charges: 45c × (1 + decimal_val). E.g:

    • 80% = 45 × (1 + 0.8) = 81 charges
    • 120% = 45 × (1 + 1.2) = 99 charges

    Time of Hallucination: Charges ÷ Charges per Second. E.g:

    • 1 Weakened Survivor normally = 45c ÷ 1.25c/s = 36s
    • 3 Weakened Survivor on 8.3.0 VB = 81c ÷ 2.375c/s = 34.1s

    Since this add-on has this hallucination side effect, that directly feeds into itself, trying to find a fair and balanced point is tricky. It depends entirely on the skill and play style of the Unknown as to how good it is... largely this would be a "feeling it out issue" over many players of different skill levels.

    Purely subjectively, 100% seems a nice figure… it makes all the number easier, as you literally just double the base times, so you don't have to do all the crapola above 😅

  • Emeal
    Emeal Member Posts: 6,601

    If an addon is over-performing, BHVR can see this via statistics, then it should be nerfed right?
    Sure the people who abuse it, might be out of your MMR range, but this game has a wide range of players.

  • IndigoNinja
    IndigoNinja Member Posts: 12

    That's not the point. The point of this is that there's no investigation as to WHY an addon has a high usage rate.

    Take Ghostface and Philly for example. It was found out that Philly was used so much because not only was it a Common/Brown addon, but it made it so that it was so much faster to mark survivors before someone revealed him out of Stealth. This addon was made partially basekit and its value was appropriately adjusted.

    With Unknown and Vanishing Box, the devs are seemingly not investigating WHY Vanishing Box supposedly had a high pick rate. Up until the first nerf of Vanishing Box, I'd seen the addon fairly frequently in my survivor games. Since the original nerf I have only seen this addon TWICE. TWICE.

    And even now, I haven't seen this addon since then. I haven't even used this addon since Map offerings were nerfed because I only ever used Vanishing Box to snipe people from the top of Eyrie's main building for clips.

    Are people getting more value out of this addon than I am? Probably! But I'd also like to see what the pick rate of addons are as well as actual dev notes as to why specific addons are being flat out being destroyed from orbit.

    It's genuinely getting tiring, and another killer that received a similar treatment was Nemesis with Marvin's Blood. And there's other killer that have experienced similar treatment in the past as well, however at this time I don't know all the killers that have experienced this kind of treatment with addons.

  • Emeal
    Emeal Member Posts: 6,601

    Yeah, but can you imagine the length of the patchnotes if the Devs should justify every lil change?
    They dont want to write like 10 000 words for that.

  • IndigoNinja
    IndigoNinja Member Posts: 12

    "To encourage addon variety and reduce the frequency of its pick rate, this addon has been nerfed."

    Seven-teen. That's 17 words.

  • IndigoNinja
    IndigoNinja Member Posts: 12

    I'm not going to lie, I genuinely messed up with calculating the numbers for how much of a detriment Vanishing Box is now. Rather than the passive charges/second being reduced, the reality is that the amount of charges needed to reach the spawn threshold was increased by a stupid amount.

    Also thank you for adding the visuals and commenting this to make it easier for people to understand the math of the situation, because it certainly helped me to realize the mistake that was made, lol.

  • UndeddJester
    UndeddJester Member Posts: 4,945
    edited October 5

    No worries 😁🤘

    As I look at it, the 8.3.0 version requires 2 Weakened Survivors just to get back the same Hallucination Rate. Effectively you're giving up traversal pressure, for the leg up the add-on gives you in the mid game to round out the downside.

    Having to have 2 weakened Survivors to break even on hallucinations AFTER already losing gens to get it, for that mid game potency seems a reasonably fair trade to me…

    The 9.2.0 version when you need 3 Weakened Survivors JUST to get back to a comparable playing field... yeah this seems a little silly. This is way too harsh and makes the add-on too heavy a downside to reap it's benefits 🤔