A change in the game's current direction is needed
Last year has been an experience to say the least. We had a balanced game last year which was fair to both sides, but every step taken this year has been towards an unbalanced state.
It all began around the Springtrap release. The healing meta made a comeback and in a strong way. Survivors only taking 5 seconds to heal negated many killers' pressure, and it still happens at this point, according to what I perceive. Healing should take a bit longer than what it currently takes, allowing killers to have more pressure and more of a chance to interrupt the healing if it's in a risky place (such as under a hook).
And then The Walking Dead came, with a map that is basically a withered isle open field with shack and a fairly little main. I recall it wasn't supposed to be like this, but I don't know what happened. Fallen Refuge left me the feeling that all potential regarding a map of The Walking Dead was left wasted, and that is truly saddening, because it does not feel like an unique map save for this very little main. It is the same problem with the Pizzeria, outside of main (which is fairly big, ngl) it does not feel unique in any way, just like a second version of Unknown's map (forgot the name).
With the release of Krasue we had yet another issue. And antitunnel system that was too punishing and a killer that in PTB was already fine, but it was decided to implement her in a busted way without necessity just to nerf her severely after release. She was fine in the PTB and she should have been released in that state at the very least. Thankfully the antitunnel was pushed back, but it feels like nothing was learned from it considering the current PTB.
And then we also have a little problem regarding special events and limited-time gamemodes. The holiday events (save for that very survivor sided blood moon) have been the same for many years. People have been saying for 2 years that they don't like the Halloween event and yet it came back worse than ever. There has been masquerades for many years as well but you say it's being changed, so let's give the benefit of the doubt. I hope Bone Chill brings in something unique to the table. And about limited time gamemodes, we are always having either chaos shuffle or 2v8, and frankly, it's tiring to have the same thing over and over again. The thrill for any of these that I could have is now gone because I know the will soon come back no matter what, alongside terrible queue times.
I forgot about pallet density. It should have been a major preference to fix it ASAP instead of leaving it behind. Instead we keep these maps that were already fine being tremendously benefitial to survivors, giving them the possibility of having bad pathing and still givig them resources. Chase for survivors requires less strategizing whereas for killer it requires even more effort and time, denying them pressure if they want to down someone.
And this PTB a new antitunnel came, alongisde backlash. There is a problem, most killers cannot keep up with the game in the current state. Hit and run is obsolete and killers with no chase power nor high movility suffer a lot. I perceive some insistence in the antitunnel matter when the killer roster except for the ones with high mobility will be severely hindered by its implementation in the current state. I have seen many good ideas be given and ignored for reasons unknown to me, but it's disappointing.
If this keeps going I am afraid that I'll have to take a break and uninstall, because the game will be stressing instead of fun due to an artificcial increase in difficulty that does not feel fair in any way. Before 2v8, there was usual to see a BP bonus in killers when the normal thing was for it to be on survivor. May be an indicative of killers leaving, and now I feel I should definetly join them.
Comments
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Agree with pretty much everything, it was going rather well up until after Springtrap dlc. The dlc had a few issues too but nothing serious, and most of it got reverted too. But after the dlc? It honestly feels like the entire balancing crew got fired and completely new people were hired, because things got bad REALLY quick.
The entire walking dead chapter was a buggy mess on par with Twins release, some bugs still existing to this day never addressed, never fixed, but at least still it was mostly just bugs, though the patch itself was weird it wasn't that weird
But then, the absolute banger drops, the 9.2.0 with changes that basically cancel out years of what bhvr was doing prior to that, anti-everything changes that lack any attention to the finer detail of the game, a random Myers rework, a killer with a really bland design, sure she was and is strong, but her gameplay loop is extremely boring, and the cherry on top, pallet density "QoL" change. (I wonder if they removed a whole hook stage from survivors would they call it quality of life?)
Some of 9.2.0 were reverted, but now we have 9.3.0, and it looks like uuuuh nothing was learned, somehow it became even worse, that community stream was really eye opening in terms of just how bad devs understanding of the game is. I completely agree, getting hardcore tunneled (The only problematic type of tunneling imo, 3 hooks=death one) by S or A tier killers sure feels terrible, but these changes are bloated out of proportion tremendously.
And honestly, they can't even claim that they do this to make game easier for casual players. Yes, these changes make life easier for casual survivors, while also insanely buffing swf. But why oh why there is NOTHING for casual killer players? Are they not also part of the playerbase? Are they not deserving or buffs to killer? Because right now, casual killer players got shot in the knee with pallet density update, and they will be shot in another knee with these changes.
Do you want to know the really important issues with the game right now bhvr? It's easy to tell you which ones they are, it's an absurd amount of game changing bugs, like Slinger having no animations, or Greenville having smoke bug if you enter corner, or Blight being bugged for so long that players accept it is as feature now.
It's the incredibly powerful potential of full squads swfs, shackling the design freedom of survivor items/perks/addons, because you have to always design around possibly 4 people using it, because for some reason you still haven't introduced something like a limit per person which only applies to a full squad swf
It's the overtuned S tier killers which dictate game balance and map designs for years, I don't understand why you never address Blight bugs that make him stronger, it's super simple too, either remove/fix them, or make it a feature available to everyone, like you did with Oni flick
It's the terrible disconnect epidemic, people are leaving or giving up for the tiniest issues, which greatly affects enjoyment of the game for others. You probably need to consider harsher dc penalties, BUT at the same time prevent it from applying if people are forcefully disconnected by hackers
It's your current changes lacking any thought in the deeper layer of the game. Why are slugging changes not taking into account Twins and Oni? Why are camping changes not taking into account multi floor maps? Why are you nerfing perks or addons based purely on statistics, like Unknown's Vanishing Box?
It's complete lack of any effort for events/modes. You readd them almost entirely the same, of course nobody is asking for a whole overhaul , but simply something new, and something new not being meaningless. I honestly liked the new autogen repair aspect of crystals from halloween. The 2v8 is barely changing, while being extremely survivor sided, and extremely boring for some killers (Compare Deathslinger with 2 buffs vs Wesker with incredibly fun 3 dashes)
I was in a toxic relationship with this game since 2017, but I will not lie, I was loving it more up until Springtrap dlc, it was really going in a nice direction, and you fumbled it, fumbled it really hard, and you keep at it, extremely saddening to see-6 -
It's quite sad how you check the history and see that it seems this year they seem to have chosen hearing survivors over killers.
I get survivor mains have the numbers but sweet jesus, they are becomming more and more spoiled to a point where even Scott Jund, who for me is bery survivor sided, is denouncing survivor players have grown overly entitled.
The game does not only have survivors. It has killers. Killers that everyday of this year have felt neglected time and time again despite being important towards keeping the game alive.
The community stream was a big red flag. They said survivors are DCING and uninstalling because of tunnelling. If that is what we are looking at then, okay. I am fine with killers leaving if this is how it's gonna be.
For the love of god, there is even something known as killer anxiety. THE HARSHNESS OF THE KILLER ROLE IS MENTALLY AFFECTING THE PLAYERBASE. But they still chose to make it harder and harder for killers. Okay, It's time to stop.
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I strongly disagree with your first line, they have been trying to cater to both hense how the previous version of the anti-tunnel was walked back.
The issue with this community more than anything else on BOTH sides is the us vs them mentality, there is glaring issues on survivor side and there is glaring issues on killer side.
We shouldn't be getting upset one side is getting QoL, coz Killer will get some in due time, Otherwise we end up in this cycle where nothing changes coz we are scaring BHVR into doing NOTHING.
Let the Anti-Tunnel come out, let them refine it, much like the pallet update they are going to refine it. Nothing especially in this game is perfect when it first comes out.
I honestly feel this game really needs to buff the lower tier killers to A rank and bring the S-tier hyper mobility down to Wesker's level.
The PTB is an awful testing environment, everything which has come from it has flopped, it will need to go onto the live servers to get actual real feedback for further refinement.
Change needs to happen, and it will happen if we let it, it has to start somewhere, they've even said they'll change killers if the Anti-Tunnel is too effective.2 -
No, this is simply bad balance design philosophy to introduce significant changes to one side while adding nothing to the other, it simply won't work in assymetrical game
If you slam such serious changes, it will simply mean that other side will be far better to play as, while the other side will become far more terrible. And what follows? That's right, lobby simulator time
And quite frankly, it's naive to say that they will buff killers in return after pallet density and the stream. How many months passed since pallet density? It's soon to be 2 months, and they only started colelcting feedback for it now, meaning the pallets will stay for more time, enough time for people to leave, switch sides increasing lobby time, or abandon the game entirely. And yet, not even a whisper of doing something for killers in return
I know I sound kind of doom posting, but that's just what we have in the game right now-3 -
Ah forgot to quote sorry
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It's not adding nothing to the other side, they do have fresh hook incentives we just need more, and they said they'd add more if it's needed, not to mention Syringes and styptics have been reworked too and that's a HUGE deal for killer players.
Like I totally get your concern but to say they are doing nothing is just not true, we just need to keep giving constructive feedback, they do listen, it's just with two very different sides they aren't going to implement everything one side wants.
The casual experience needs a lot of work in this game, for both sides and the QoL is trying to address that.
And it's okay about the quote you have nothing to apologise for, the forums are just wierd.-1 -
It would be true if they added the rewards for unique hooks from 9.2.0 into this ptb, but all they added is +750 bp and bloodlust for 15s or until you use your power, one has 0 impact on ongoing match, the other being mostly a nothing burger except for interaction with Beast of Prey. So in the end, they added nothing to killer side because really, what else they got from this? From anti-camp? Nothing. From anti-slug? Nothing. From anti-tunnel? These 2 things above.
It's my other big gripe with how bhvr handles this whole thing. There are 3 main ways they could go about it. Either A, nerf the existing killer strategies, the one they chose to go with, and probably the worst one. Option B, to buff other strategies to make them more tempting to use, I believe this would be the best choice. Or Option C, to to nerf both existing killer strategies and survivor's strongest stuff at the same time. I take it back, this is probably the worst option, it's too hard to do right away, and too complex of an issue.
And on the other side, they nerf 3 of killer strategies, what is going to be available for use? There aren't that many of them to begin with, and playing fairly is not a strategy, you don't benefit from it directly. What's there at all, Camping, Tunneling, Slugging, 3 Genning, Endgame, Hit and Run, Totemic, and I guess Macro control? The only widely available are the first 4, others are either too niche or work only on some killers. So by nerfing first 3, we might just end up with no strategies being good as killer, which completely destroys the agenda of letting players make their own choices-4 -
I mean I can see your reasoning, but we can't know how effective it is until we see it in actual use cases on the live servers.
So many people (not you) parrot content creators who are just the same as them, people who play the game, rather than coming up with opinions they actually feel match their personal experience.
A big change like this needs to happen I feel at least so we can see what works and what doesn't and go from there. I'm glad its causing discussion of what the best course of action is coz we've needed this for a long time.
I agree making not tunneling more enticing would be a good option, but much like you see that as a nerf to killers when the shoe is on the other foot, survivors will see it as one to them. So it doesn't matter what way we go we'll face the same issue.
So the best option is to cater to both I feel, regardless, coz they aren't gonna make everyone happy regardless, so might as well make the majority happy.-4 -
I would argue we can already see right now how effective it will be, it actually won't be effective at all. I have been playing survivor more because killer is just unfun for whenever matchmaking system dropped years, and from what I could see it's really telling, the biggest problem I had in the games was always one and the same: my teammates giving up almost instantly.
And the issue of people giving up is just not something that will be fixed with these huge buffs, hell, I still see it today with pallet density literally making it nigh impossible to down people quickly, yet they still get downed, and proceed to dc or afk, it's breaking my mind trying to understand what more they needed. And it's not like I play vs Nurses/Blights/Kanekis all the time, people left after being quickly downed by pretty much any killer, last time it was Springtrap I believe
And another case and point of it, I have seen survivors give up on first down, IN 2 V 8. They have an entire deck stacked in their favor there, and they still give up because they got downed first. These people are beyond help, you can make them invincible and they will still find an excuse to give up. You can even see on this forum, bhvr removed legion from current 2 v 8 and what happened in here? Threads of "Well damn Oni too strong please nerf/remove". Catering to players like this, who refuse to improve, or adapt, or learn, is an extremely short-sighted decision, and bhvr is following through on this decision, which can prove fatal.
Another reason it can prove fatal is as follows: Let's pretend they do introduce all these changes as they are, as you suggest. Okay, they enter live, and people start playing around with them. What is most likely gonna happen? Numerous times it was proven that whenever something that can be abused is added to the game, will be abused, it's true for both survivor and killer sides. These changes are highly abusable, can't deny that.
30 seconds of Endurance is really potent for bodyblocking, and in combination with perk changes can be made even stronger.
Anti-camping already had issues of "Bait and switch"? i don't know if this has a name, but basically when survivors bait killer from hook an away and anti-camp meter was filling up to full due to that, though truth be told it was pretty rare. With extra 4 meters it will be easier to do but maybe harder to perform with +50% slower meter. Anti-slug is not really abusable looking but maybe people will find a way
And then comes the biggest problem: Time. These changes go through, they will remain withing the game for a long time, and they will come without pallet density being addressed. And we are in the middle of November, meaning most likely, bhvr will go on holiday break, so we will be stuck with combo of these changes + pallet density for a LONG while. I believe it will be fatally long time for the future of the game0 -
The problem comes from BHVR's part here. Their way of expressing things makes it seem like they care not about what killers have to say, but instead look at the survivors because they have the numbers. And after all this year this seems true. Survivor mains will always be a majority compared to the killer mains, that is undeniable. And the seeming neglection towards killer mains from BHVR's part only encourages an us vs them mentality.
I do feel BHVR listens more to survivors than killers overall. They have listened sometimes to killers, yeah, but not as much as they listened for survivors especially in recent times, which is frustrating.
And after many years of this, killers have had to resort to sweaty strategies to keep up with a game that is becomming more and more unfair to them with the course of time. Toxicity is encouraged, it feeds the cycle non-stop. And the game ain't fun anymore. It became way too competitive, because if you fail once, the other side humilliates you. You are not only defeated, you have to endure demeaning treatment more and more, in contrast to survivors, who can abandonn as soon as they are slugged twice or skip a mori. But killers cannot avoid teabags on exit gates nor generators being repaired on their faces.
BHVR is undeniably protecting more the survivor playerbase than the killer playerbase. They May have fun humilliating me, but I am not a masochist. Nor are other killer mains who just wish to have fun and a fair shot at killing.
BHVR is not going to listen to both sides. Not when they have spoiled survivors so much. They have chosen a side when they shouldn't have.
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Thats exactly what these changes are aiming to do, start the steps to making the game to not feel like toxic strategies are a must to win.
Even if things get worse at first, they will improve coz we'll keep getting feedback, we prevent these changes we stagnate and won't get any good feedback or change. Community Managers have even told us multiple times if it affects kill rates they'll give killer buffs accordingly.
So let's just enjoy the ride, could always try survivor for a while until you get more suitable killer changes. I find this game is enjoyed best when you play both sides.-4 -
You may find it like that, but we both know not everyone is the same. Survivor gameplay to me feels boring.
And now to my next question. Is stagnation bad compared to moving towards a detrimental state? I think not. What we had is better than what we have, and that is undeniable.
They don't listen to the feedback, and when they do the game has been unfair for more time than needed. They only listen to survivor mains on a regular basis.
And it's BHVR we are talking about here, known for unfulfilled promises regarding the future. So I think it is pretty justified to refuse to believe in them after so much was said and so little was done.
The truth is the game is at a low point. Killers are leaving. And even then they refuse to acknowledge they have gone too far this year.
This ride cannot be enjoyed by killers. It couldn't be for more than half a year, and it's worsening. I cannot keep faith anymore because things are spiraling down without control and noone puts a stop to it despite recurring manifestations of it that are met with disregard.
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Survive by daylight is the direction the game is currently heading to
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survivor sided updates yet my fog vials were nerfed in 2 weeks and clown was a braindead drone for a month by your logic he should have been nerfed in a week
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They don't only listen to survivor mains, we've been getting killer changes for years. We just need more killer changes to make it more forgiving, the same can also be said for survivor rn. Your bias shows, I think both sides really need help where it counts rn. Killer needs more breathing room on gens for when they play without gen regression perks, survivor needs to be more forgiving when hard tunneling and slugging are in play.
The biggest annoying thing they've done recently is release overtuned killers and make killer mains who think that's how they are meant to be get attatched to them, then they get nerfed. That's probably the biggest sin they are committing recently, I don't think Kaneki/Krasue should have ever been buffed going into live.
Then there is going onto all the bugged and ugly unfinished cosmetics they keep releasing and all the bugs that keep amounting up ruining the game for everyone, with no QoL for those in sight either.
I'd rather them try new things and take the game in new directions, or stagnation will happen. This games design road is very comparable to mmos, which after 10+ years like FFXIV are also suffering from stagnation and keeping things simple.
Also killers are barely leaving, the queues for them take an age even with the pallet changes WHICH ARE BEING CHANGED, it has been confirmed. The pallet increase needed to happen on maps like Haddonfield etc.
Like no disrespect, but there is truth to both sides of the coin here and I think if you played more survivor you'd see it.2 -
Clown was just 1 thing that got reverted in a month. Fog vials were poorly implemented and their real usefulness could be questioned.
Meanwhile, pallet density has been like this for almost 2 months and it still isn't being fixed. Now we got antitunnel and antislug. Endurance now nullifies some killer powers for some reason. Is it comparable how much survivors have to how little killers got? I don't defend the clown "buff" , it was busted and braindead. But isn't survivor gameplay getting more and more braindead with each update? It is. It has been for this year since FNAF. And it seems there is no will to fix this.
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Killers are leaving though. The BP bonus seems to prove it. Prior to 2v8, it was mostly on killers when it usually was on survivors almost always. If that isn't a symptom, idk what is.
I understand tunnelling and slugging can be boring. I try to avoid it as much as possible unless I am facing a head on sabo squad in the case of slugging. But sometimes you gotta tunnel at a 2-gen to get your pressure back up. And BHVR intends to punish me for that? This time they just gave killers a bad bloodlust while survivors get wallhacks for free and an obscenely long protection (unless they dialed it down for release)
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Well, the trap situation they put themselves in is now closed, and now we are in another problematic situation, there is literally barely anything interesting in this 9.3.0 patch, a whole chapter gone to complete waste. It's why I agree with Slan, 9.2.0 and 9.3.0 were a massive waste because the direction the devs are going in is just completely missing the mark. They could spend all this time and effort to solving the issues in another way, but they decided to literally reintroduce 9.2.0 in this 9.3.0 ptb and wow it was still not taken well, who would have thought? Everyone could honestly it's not rocket science
Well, there were a couple of good points to see in the future in the stream, so hopefully we do get better thought out changes later, because in this terms I agree with you, game needs serious changes as well, it's stagnating, and the fact they reverted most of it, while good in my eyes that they did that, is also aiding in game's stagnation, which is also an issue. This ended up a lose-lose scenario for bhvr, they push these changes, there is a big problem, they don't, it's still a big problem
I swear though if they reintroduce these thoughtless changes AGAIN later I will legit die from cringe-3 -
That's fair honestly all I want his bug changes, balance changes and polish to cosmetics that are bugged at this point.
They've proven they can't do anything to change this game that's healthy for both sides.0 -
Okay 9.3.0 released and it's definitely proving Slan's right, somehow devs exceeded my expectations, and made it EVEN WORSE. No bugs fixed, more bugs introduced, pallet density update somehow did a 180 and now it's extremely in killer's favor, no content, no nothing, I am genuinely stunned at how much worse it got. Whoever is responsible for these changes being made, there is simply no sugar coating it, they are terrible at their job, and if nothing changes I am afraid this will truly mark the beginning of the end
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It's quite sad how you check the history and see that it seems this year they seem to have chosen hearing survivors over killers.
i think people forget that they're listening to survivors —now— and making all of these changes because survivor gameplay has been more or less the same since the get-go. killers got spoiled with new powers to play every patch, meanwhile survivors only got a new cosmetic. no new items, no new gameplay mechanics, just the same gameplay loop since the day the game released. they even stated that their reasoning for all of the new qol changes was because they neglected the survivor role over the years. so to claim that they're listening to survivors over killers is ludicrous to me, honestly.
they miss the mark in balancing for sure, but i think it's fairly obvious that they don't favour any sides and want to do what's best for everyone, except they are just god awful at executing whatever plans they put forward. i don't think it's fair to push this narrative, that they're favouring sides, when they're making changes based on what feedback people have given them, but like i said, they just suck at it.
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QoL is definitely nice and should be added, as well as something extra for survivors, it's true that the gameplay loop and variety has only been influenced by new perks which isn't really much anymore, though, the changes they made, namely pallet density and anti-tunnel/camp/slugging are neither QoL nor they change survivor gameplay, like at all.
I believe that they should definitely go more experimental with survivors, and start with something small, like new/reworked items. Previous version, Fog Vials, they barely tested it, nerfed it into the ground, reworked keys and maps but those 2 still remain rather useless. I wish they returned to that, especially to fog vials which got killed and then just kinda left dead. Or a rework to how chests work, reason why keys still remain useless outside of hatch is because their chest opening feature is revolved around, well chests, and chests are extremely outdated in current bp economy. Same with maps, they were meh, still meh, just use Windows of Opportunity
Then once they get the simpler stuff they could experiment with more complex stuff, like a whole new mechanic for survivors or an extra objective, though, I am gonna be honest, I no longer have the slightest hope that they will know how to implement that, unless ofc they actually cooperate with at least fog whisperers, ideally with playerbase more so we know in advance what ideas they have0 -
yeah agreed. i just don't know why the OP is adamant that they're "ignoring" killers even though they cancelled 2 ptbs worth of content after killers complained about hand holding. just us v them nonsense i guess. baffles me. because they are clearly listening to what everyone has to say. given the current state of the game lmao.
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