Stop Saying Killers Should be Punished for Playing Optimally.

To be fair nearly no one says that alteast those who have some hours on the Killer side. Most of the time it´s the Killer mains who say you should gen rush to counter tunneling.

I have said something similar myself, where if you were to eliminate tunneling/excessive slugging/camping etc. from the game completely, it would be much easier to balance the killers who really struggle. Think Trapper, GhostFace, Pig etc.

Also, incentivize gen-patrolling more. A killer who can apply good pressure on gens is much more likely to win the match.
The most common misplay I see from killers in my games are that they often over-commit to one person, who tends to bring the killer far away from the gens that are being worked on, therefore giving the other survivors a free pass to do the gens.
Inversely, I have also seen killers who lack commitment, who also lose the games as a result of that.
Like, if you as a survivor can run the killer for at least two gens worth of progress in your first chase, then you have laid some good groundwork for your team's success.

its usually to reflect on people who push things on the other side that they rarely ever play but never ever think "what if i did this on my side"

tunneling and genrushing has no counters,

unless you count having 1k hours with meta perks to be a solution or killers running 4 gen-regression.

which is all pre-determined. you cant just do that in the game to immediately change the outcome.

you wont immediately have 1k hours and suddenly run meta perks when you are already tunneled
and
you cant suddenly run 4 gen-regression when you realise the gens popping every 40s.

both are unfun playstyles yet massively defended even if the meta has been stale and has been clearly unfun and an unhealthy way to way.

problem is many killers in the roster are incapable of maintaining enough pressure on gens unless the gens are really close or survs lack game awareness

This is why the best killers are the ones who beat prerun strat

Look at the top 10 all of them beat prerun at least to some extent

Ghoul doesnt even have proper and oppressive antiloop like slinger or clown but he gets fast first hits and appears on top of you and he is top 3

Compare these to pig crapper ghostface myers etc. Either very map dependent or just weak

Rule of thumb is the less mobility a killer has the lower on the tier list

Sadly it doesnt seem possible to fix this because if you make an immobile killer who can also pressure gens you get chess merchant or singu who destroys soloq

Thid is ultimately why i think devs refuse to completely remove camping tunneling what are these bad killers gonna do if they cant apply pressure through tunneling and camping?

This is also why sb is one of the best survivor perks maybe the best overall

Survivors’ only objective is to do gens and escape; killers’ only objective is to kill survivors. Nobody should be punished on either side for playing the way they want within the rules.

Tunneling doesn’t even work well against good survivors most of the time as you waste way too much time trying to chase and hook a single survivor three times.

Survivors’ only objective is to do gens and escape; killers’ only objective is to kill survivors. Nobody should be punished on either side for playing the way they want within the rules.

The problem here is looking at it as a "punishment", which is the newest narrative for opposing anything to limit hard tunneling.

Because having limits on some aspects of the game makes sense. Survivors start the match together, there's an innate penalty to gen speeds when grouping up on the same gen, and most of the "anti tunneling" and "anti camping" perks or mechanics are just flat out disabled when the gates are powered.

Those already exist, and nearly universally are considered "common sense" limitations. Yet, if we apply the current narrative to them, it's literally "punishing survivors for doing gens".

And yet, when anything is proposed to limit even the most extreme examples of hard tunneling at 5 gens, people scream, cry "abuse" and "punishment" until it gets completely thrown out and discarded.

I think the frame of mind and language you’re using matters a lot here. Seeing any form of anti-tunnel as a “punishment for playing optimally” is probably why the concept feels so hard to accept. But if we look at the game as a whole, we can see that this exact idea already exists everywhere else, and for good reason. Tunneling is held to different standards 

For the sake of your argument, I’ll use that same framing “punishment for playing optimally” to explain my point.

Looping is a perfect example. It doesn’t need a perk to exist, just like tunneling doesn’t. Yet looping has built-in restrictions or “punishments for playing optimally” already.  things like windows blocking after repeated use, bloodlust, and pallets that can be broken, permanently weakening a loop. If I’m vaulting a window really well and the only reason the killer hits me is because it is blocked, then in your logic that’s a punishment for playing optimally, for being too good. If I’m running a killer really well but he gets major bloodlust and gets a hit, then that’s a punishment for playing optimally, for being too good. But we need those kind of “punishments for playing optimally” in order for a much more balanced game. Looping well is playing optimally but it is still “punished” without any kind of perk required for a killer. 

Though we do have them of course. We have anti-loop killers and perks, just like we have anti-tunnel perks. But the existence of counter perks/killers never replaced the “punishments” on looping. Looping isn’t left without “punishments” just because anti-loop options exist.

Tunneling, on the other hand, is.

Tunneling is a strong optimal way to play, but it’s treated differently from other strong, optimal ways to play in the game.

Imagine if looping had no built-in counters or “punishments for optimal play” at all, and windows never blocked, pallets couldn’t be broken, bloodlust didn’t exist, and killers were expected to be fine with it because anti-loop perks and anti-loop killers exist. I think people would be quick to call out the imbalance, and people would push back immediately. 

 The logic seems to be that anti-loop/killer options don’t replace the need for built-in limits/punishments for playing optimally when looping, but anti-tunnel options do replace the need for built-in limits/punishment for playing optimally when tunneling. That inconsistency is the issue. And it’s why I advocate for tunneling to be balanced the same way other mechanics/strats in this game already (and rightfully) are.

Balance does not mean punishment. And if you really want to look at it through that lens, then one role is already punished for the sake of balance for playing optimally.  

I think the frame of mind and language you’re using matters a lot here. Seeing any form of anti-tunnel as a “punishment for playing optimally” is probably why the concept feels so hard to accept. 

I wonder how differently everything would have gone if instead of calling it anti-tunnel they had done something like:

Survivor Buff: Upon a survivors death, they gain a 25% gen speed bonus.

Killer Buff: Getting to 6 hook states before a death will negate the survivor bonus.

That's a simplified example but as you point out I think people really latched onto something that is a pretty normal thing (weirdly I think if they just made the 25% gen speed bonus happen regardless of hook states and then focused on unique hook benefits, it would have gone over better).

These limits were poorly set and kinda only viable on like half of the killers (the stronger one not the bottom one) which made it kida bad in term of just play hardcore game because you choose that killer or switch to better one which isnt good desing tbh.

The OP is literally talking about the concept of 'punishment' being a bad idea, not overall game impacts.

That's a framework issue (or wording if you prefer).

not really sure how you can say its not true. As killer i never tunneled until i started getting matched with SWF more regularly and gens started to fly.

Its like playing 2 different games

1. A mostly soloq match where players dont touch gens, do challenges like totems, dont work together which is seen more in low MMR, sure tunneling isnt needed which is why i never did it.
2. A mostly SWF match (4 or 3 person, 2 x 2 person SWF) that dont do challenges, actually do gens and work together which is more common in higher MMR, this is where tunneling is needed because when players actually do gens instead of memeing around the gens fly which is why i started tunneling.

Simple race, gens v kills. fastest and most efficient way to kill is often to tunnel. Fastest and most efficient ways to do gens is often spread out, toolboxes, take chase away from gens, always have someone on gens at all times.

Is it fun for survivor to be tunneled out? no

Is it fun for the killer to have gens done and gates open in 5min? no

Both optimal plays and both reasonable in the race of gens v kills.

when killers get matched with high performing SWF often they tunnel by default. i know i do. i could have a match v all soloq memers that wont touch gens but i wont know that going into the match. im going to tunnel from the get go assuming its a team thats going to do gens. That doesnt mean im tunneling regardless of gen speeds, it means most of my matches gens fly so thats the type of matches i prepare for.

You expect me to hold off on tunneling and play less efficiently incase survivors are meming around?

If we want to reduce tunneling and improve the game overall, the best idea is to make tunneling no longer the most optimal play.

To do that, you have 2 options:

1. Buff killer in some way that another strategy is now more optimal
2. Add a nerf/restriction that applies specifically when tunneling such that another strategy is more optimal

The best way to go about it is probably a mix of 1 and 2. But doing just #1 is bad, as although another strategy becomes more optimal, tunneling doesn’t become any worse or any more difficult. It will still happen all the time. And without 2, you’d have to buff killer so extremely that not taking out a survivor immediately (despite easily being able to) is somehow not the best play, and you’d probably break the balance of the game doing so.

And conversely, doing #2 alone would destroy the balance of the game and make it way too easy for survivors to win at high levels.

Making pain res base kit just means I have more free slowdown while I tunnel if I’m playing optimally. Nothing is going to change.

well the reason why it was 6 hooks specifically is because they were going after tru3 and people who play like him who will bounce between 2 survivors for pressure

bouncing between rhem is what they consider tunneling actually. it was the 3rd thing they consider tunneling it's just they omitted it since if you say it out loud it sounds dumb and people will hate you(the devs) for not understanding something so basic and tend to swing heavily on favor of survivor

also tru3 has been doing this as far back as earlier this year when knock out qas meta (which the dwvs still haven't addressed the problem of hooking survivors makes them stronger ans is why they keep trying base unbreakable)

Like saying looping is the only way to play survivor efficiently? or doing gens asap is the only way to play efficiently? ideally it would be nice if survivors found other ways to play efficiently (believe me, they do exist). killers have found many ways to play efficiently and each one of them survivors have not liked….tunneling, camping, slugging, S tier killers using meta perks.

countless people in these forums alone have openly said looping is the only thing a survivor can do. i have even mentioned playing stealth and hoards of people have come out saying "stealth is dead due to so much aura reading" and they maintain looping is the only way to play.

you ignored the point regarding killers have other ways to play and tunneling isnt the only way… yet all efficient tactics killer uses is hated. so its not "we want killers to find other ways to play efficiently" at all because they already have….camping and slugging.

so your comment of just wanting killers to find other efficient ways of playing was just flat out incorrect because you have acknowledged at least 2 other ways killers can play and you dont like them either. it sounds like what you want is for the killer to not find other ways of playing but to only play 1 way which is not as efficient (spreading hooks).

you say looping isnt efficient if no one else is doing gens but tunneling isnt efficient if the person they are tunneling is a pro looper that loops the killer for 5 gens.

why make the comment regarding survivors wanting killers to play other ways then? they slug and camp…. so whats the issue? you got your wish, killers found another way to play other than tunnel.

nothing is efficient v a good looper lol thats the point. thats why its smart to pick the weak link and tunnel them out not the strong looper. its not as mindless of a tactic as people think it is. its strong but it can be countered and it has its downsides like all tactics should have.

makes no difference that some killers can do ok spreading hooks…. many cant. some survivors can loop a killer for 5 gens, does that mean everyone should be able to do that? not all killers want to play the same, and to expect all killers to play how you want them to play is very unrealistic. just like how me expecting or wanting survivors to play in a way i want them to play is unrealistic, you can want it, sure, you can want the moon to be made of cheese too but its just not going to be a reality

tunneling has been nerfed across the board via multiple perks available to counter it and basekit endurance. but thats neither here nor there, fact is you say you want killers to find other ways to play….they have done exactly that, camp and slug.

Sure. Spread hooks, keep Survivors occupied, give them something to do other than gens. Friends 'til the End is a great perk for that.

By hooking them? If you tunnel and keep chasing a single Survivor, that gives the other three nothing to do but gens, and then you get "genrushed" as Killers like to call it. But if you hook one, then go after another, that's two Survivors not doing gens. And then the third Survivor has to go save the hooked person and heal them. That's three Survivors not doing gens. So that's not "giving us a chance" at all.