http://dbd.game/killswitch
We can stop Tunneling by giving killers a Mori for 4 fresh hooks before the first death.
The reason killers tunnel out survivors is because tunneling is the most effective tactic to win games. This is because there is a fundamental difference in team efficiency between three survivors and four survivors. If a killer has hooked a survivor and has started a chase or patrolling gens, the pressure they develop is substantially different vs 3 survivors than vs 4 survivors.
Against four survivors, one is hooked, one is in chase, two are on gens. When one survivor gets off gens for the rescue, one generator is still potentially being progressed. Against three survivors then the exact same situation means no generators are being progressed. If the killer is not chasing any survivor, then the four survivor team has double the progression of the three survivor team. The principle is the same for reseting, healing, setting up boons, or any other potential survivor action. The advantage of tunneling is so substantial there needs to be a genuine reason to not tunnel for a killer who wants to win.
If the killer gained a single use Mori they could use on any survivor after 4 fresh hooks before the first death, then they might just be tempted to not tunnel until they got the four fresh hooks. A mori can be used to skip a hook state on a strong survivor, confirm a kill on a slug below a pallet, increase efficiency by cutting down on a long hook walk, or dodge a sabotage attempt. There are numerous benefits that are tempting enough to dissuade from Tunneling. It could have implications for obsession builds, and there could be a lot of skill expression in choosing the right time and target to use the Mori.
On the survivor side, I think this would also be beneficial, as spreading hooks extends the game being in a four player state which is the most fun. Subjectively, I think being moried at one hook stage would feel a lot less unfair than being hard tunnelled from the start of the match. Plus, it would make the mid-game incredibly tense and frightening, suddenly the killer is at their most dangerous at a time when there are only 1-2 generators left. Both sides are on the verge of winning and it could (hopefully) be anyone's game.
The big issue with this system comes about when one survivor stealths to deny the killer the 4 hook Mori. This is a legitimate strategy, but it would circle around to encouraging tunneling again as the killer will probably end up just chasing the next survivor they see and tunneling the rest of the team anyway. If the Mori could also be activated with a 5-6 normal hooks before the first death, then I think this would mitigate the effectiveness of "Hard" stealthing and dooming your team, while keeping the "Soft" situational stealthing to deny the killer the Mori for as long as possible and to allow the rest of your team to reset. I think 5 hooks is the best number for this, this gives the last player a chance to generate pressure by stealthing, but once the killer has hooked another survivor, they could tunnel that survivor straight out. If the 5th hook before a death gives them a mori, then the killer is incentivised to go after a new target and give the death hook survivor a chance. This also incentivises the stealthing player to come out of hiding and take chase, as no matter what the next hook the killer will get either a kill or a Mori.
I think that this is a good way to balance tunneling, but I would love to hear some feedback below.
Comments
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So once everyone is hooked once, you can get rid of one person by mori. Great! Now why should Nurse get the same treatment as Pig who worked for the 4 hooks 1000x harder? The problem in tunneling is that it's efficient on strong killers and mostly not against good teams with bad killers. Why all the comp Blights with 4 slowdowns tunnel at 5 gens? Because they have best chance to win every game like that. If you manage to do the same with killers like Ghostface or Dredge than yeah just the team was bad. But the overall balance can't work untill strenght difference between killers is that high. Do you feel like Ghoul who ended on Badham and managed to obtain 4 hooks at 4 gens left deserves the same treatment as Pig that ended on Badham and most likely won't be even capable of hooking everyone once?
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So you want to punish one survivor for killer hooking survivors. Not to mention this would be totally unbalanced. So killer could hook survivor 1, then 2, then 3, hook survivor 1 again and then find survivor 4 and kill them. Not to mention this would be the tactic everyone would use as of course you kill the one that has not been hooked before to maximize the benefit. This would be just worse can of worms and easily abusable. This was the main problem with Myers when he could just kill you without any limitation than having an add-on.
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It could work if the Survivor was required to be on death hook before you could mori them. But then again, this would defeat the purpose of the green mori offering. (Or is it blue now? Idek...)
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Or just completely remove the 500 endurance perks
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Sometimes you can really tell when someone hasn't had the misfortune of playing against one-hook moris.
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Not to mention when Shape could mori you without you being hooked even once.
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I haven't had the change to play against one hook moris… but I have been zero-hook moried playing against devour hope. Yes it is powerful, yes it sucks when my team feeds and I get surprise mori'd. I still remember when I started playing this game and played against and Adept Hag and my entire team got Mori'd because we cleansed the third seal and ruin before we found the devour totem.
Devour Hope is not an overpowered perk.
Devour hope has a lot of counterplay, and more importantly it is much stronger than what I am suggesting. Devour hope has infinite moris, team-wide expose, and the surprise factor of being revealed only at 3+ stacks. The reason it isn't a meta perk is because it takes time to power up, and it can be cleansed. Fundamentally devour hope is a really healthy perk because it encourages both spreading hooks, and allowing for unhooks and resets.
What I am suggesting is a weaker, single use, devour hope that can only be used while there are four survivors alive. While it can't be denied like devour hope, it can be countered/mitigated by skilful team play and situational awareness on the survivor side.
I think I am suggesting something much more fair than tombstone piece and one-hook mori offerings. The killer has to both win chase, and at least hook you once. Rather than mori you out of nowhere because your team just let Myers stalk them.
But, that does raise a good point. It sucks to be tombstone pieced when you haven't even been hooked. There isn't anything you really could have done to stop it. If a system like this were to be implemented in the game, then the Moris it grants would have to be only useable on a survivor that has at least one hook state.-1 -
The only thing keeping Devour Hope in check is the fact that it can be removed from the game forever at any time. Your suggestion has no such thing.
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You're right that this would benefit the top killers, but that is an issue of killer balancing not game design.
Tunneling is the most effective strategy on ALL KILLERS. It is fundamental to the nature of this game. Some killers are better than others at Tunneling, some are better at Gen Defence. But every single killer benefits if there is one less survivor to chase, heal, do gens, body-block, ect…
The reason this system should be usable by Blight, Ghoul, and Nurse is because this should be a system that the game is balanced around because a game that encourages spreading hooks would be more fun and more fair. If it is oppressive on the nurse or Blight, then those killers should be nerfed, but the mori system should stay the same for all killers.
Its like saying that you should only need to do 4 generators if you're up against Nurse or Blight. Even if it would bring those killers into the same power level as the rest, it fundamentally changes the game and opens a massive can of worms.0 -
No, they would have to hook survivor 4 at least once. The killer can only unlock the mori with 4 survivors left standing.
The mori would only work if the survivor has at least one hook state 0 hook moris are to be avoided. After thinking about what other posters said above, I think this has to be a hard coded condition rather than a soft condition as a result of four unique hooks to avoid the situations you were outlining.It can't only be at four unique hooks because that would result in the last non-hook survivor stealthing to deny the mori, which encourages tunneling again. Which is why it the Mori would have to be unlocked at either:
4 Unique hooks
or
5 Total hooksWhichever comes first, with all survivors left standing.
It can't be death hook because that is basically pointless. At that point it is the same as current Iri-mori, which isn't strong.
It has to be able to skip a hook state otherwise it isn't strong enough to dissuade tunneling
Two hook states is too much, no-hook states is pointless. It has to be able to Mori at one hook state.-1 -
No I think you may be underestimating the other conditions of devour hope. It denies the killer from proxy-camping and pressuring the unhook. It basically allows the survivors to heal off the hook as the killer has to be a certain distance away. Admittedly it does make up for this with the expose, which is why it isn't a big issue for devour hope. But it does make the initial three tokens the hardest to get.
Whenever I play with devour hope, it always ends in one of three ways:- It gets cleansed before I can use it
- I steamroll and 4k
- I get annihilated in a 1-3 hook game with no kills
The reason number 3 happens is because the early game is the most difficult time for killers. Devour hope has both the active nerf of allowing survivors to reset, and the opportunity cost of another perk that hold it check alongside it being a totem. Hex: Ruin doesn't have this problem because it is active immediately, despite it being a totem.
I think that the single use, one hook state mori, and no exposure effect is enough to justify a "devour hope" -like effect. It doesn't have the crazy instant win effect that Devour hope has because it can't mori into exposed mori, into exposed mori.0 -
if im getting this right….4 hooks, 1 on each survivor so have to injure and down them all (8 hits total) to then mori the 4th after killer has 4 hooks (so another hit to down the 4th after they have been unhooked?). During this time getting 4 seperate hooks it leaves all players in the game… why not just tunnel the 1 out which takes 2 hits to down them, hook them, 1 hit to down them after they are unhooked, hook again, then 1 hit to down them a 3rd time and take them out the game? 1 person out of the match in 4 hits… instead of mori after twice as many hits. sounds better to tunnel to be honest
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The idea would be that you could mori any survivor once you unlocked the ability, and the mori didn't go away until you used it. It would be guaranteed skip one hook state (so at least one hit), but you would use it to bypass a long walk to a hook, a pallet/flashlight save, or to remove a difficult survivor.
You would also be bypassing the basekit off the record, which could already add two extra hits to the 4 hits needed to hard tunnel, not to mention anti-tunnel perks like decisive strike, reassurance, shoulder the burden, as well as bodyblocks from the other survivors.
It is slightly weaker than hard tunneling if hard tunneling goes well, I'll give you that. But hard tunneling does have counterplay, after a bodyblock the killer might be more incentivised to swap targets to get progress on the mori. They might also get into a chase while the first survivor is on hook. One split hook changes the calculation, especially if they unhooked during your chase.
For example, if you have hooked survivor A and survivor B, and survivor A has just been unhooked by survivor C and you can make it to chase either survivor. You could choose survivor A, but you would have to wait at least 15 seconds for the basekit BT, at which point they could make it to a loop, or you could choose survivor C. If you know you can catch survivor C quickly for the first hit, then both A and C are as basically as easy to hook as each other.So which survivor you chase would come down to who gets you the most advantage, if you choose survivor A then you are two hooks away from a death, with a potentially easier chase and easier time to find them. If you choose Survivor C you are also potentially two hooks away from a death if you can find survivor D, or three hooks if not, with potentially three extra hits needed. But you also gain some pressure because survivor A still has to heal,
tl;dr: It is a situational side grade, but there are a lot of situations that make it good.
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its better to count and wait out the basekit off the record. pointless hitting to give them a speed boost when i can chase, get up next to them and when timer is up just down them, it keeps them off the gens like a normal chase would and gives a 1 hit down. Also means killer doesnt need to travel the map looking for another survivor which takes a lot of time.
Another reason why killers tunnel is because they tunnel the weak link. if there is just 1 strong looper in the team then it means the 4 hook mori method would be far worse than targeting the weak looper out. Not many tunneling killers would run that risk of getting 2 or 3 easy hooks then coming across that 1 really good looper that the killer just cant catch. As a tunneling killer myself, i know if i find the weak looper im going to get them out faster than if i change targets.
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Would the ability to mori a 0 hook survivor after getting 5 hooks incentivise you to spread hooks at all?
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not if it means i have to get a fresh hook on all 4 survivors because all it takes it 1 strong looper to put a stop to the hooking and deny me the mori while keeping all 4 in the match, 3 could be downed easy but then i would hit a wall v that pro looper which is why i usually go for the weak link so it would be faster to tunnel. to be honest the only way i would stop tunneling is if gen speeds slowed down to allow me time spread hooks. But currently gens just go too fast and i dont play speedy killers like blight and ghoul so i cant keep up with the speed of gens popping, hence the reason i tunnel. its not to be toxic or annoying or because its easy, its because its necessary for me to do it to be able to get a balanced match, to keep up with the pace. like i always said, its a race, gens v kills. fastest one wins. slow the gens down, slow the kills down.
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Well the idea would be that you can get the mori if you get 5 total or 4 unique hooks before the first death. If the mori was at it conceptually strongest, it could be used on anyone regardless of hook state. So you could do something like this:
Survivor 1: 0 hooksSurvivor 2: 2 hooks
Survivor 3: 2 hooks
Survivor 4: 1 hook
And get the mori to use on survivor 1, bypassing two hook states and at least two hits.
So if there was one really good looper and three average survivors, would you rather tunnel out one survivor for three hooks or get five hooks on the rest of the team with a mori you could use on the looper so you only have to win chase against them once?0 -
I don't think saying "actually, Devour Hope has way more protections than you mentioned to prevent it from being overpowered compared to my suggested system" is supporting your argument the way you think it is.
Guaranteeing someone dead at 5 hooks would be pretty crazy, and feel especially awful for the person being hit by it
if they've only been hooked once.EDIT: Actually, the way you've been suggesting it is even worse since you can use it on people with zero hooks(!)
Simply proxycamp the hook, cycle trades until you have 4 fresh hooks, down and kill someone with zero hooks and you have one dead and 1-2 people dead on hook.
That's an almost unrecoverable gamestate unless you somehow take 4-5 gens to do this.
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personally, i would still tunnel because its still faster to take out 1 player with 3 hooks, i dont have to spend ages trying to find another survivor, hope that survivor isnt a pro looper. i know the first one i hook is the weak link so its often best to stick with what i know. i know they are a weak looper, i know they are injured already, i know where they are (roughly), i know they are easier to find when injured, i know 2 more hooks and they are out. The mori on the 1 strong player is good but it still requires me to actually down them which could take longer than downing the weak player 3 times from the start. Not only that but i know if i leave the strong looper for last then it wont matter how long they can loop for they will either get the hatch or they will die to EGC.
There is also a problem if there is 2 good loopers and 2 weak loopers. taking out 1 weak looper to bring it to 3 v 1 fast is crucial and far better than taking on 1 of the 2 pro loopers to get a mori when i could have just taken out a player long ago. even 1 good looper can loop the full gen time, if all 4 players are in play 1 looping and 3 on gens thats 2 gens left by the time i have 1 kill.
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