Bring Back Distortion

I'm gonna say no on the conspicuous actions because numbers wise that's a lot harder to balance around.

How?

Even with 100% uptime, Distortion is not overpowered. It is a counter-perk whose power is limited by the build opposite it. It only ever blocks aura reading and returns the game to the default state.

The problem with balancing around that is by this image alone the times vary wildly depending on what you're doing, having the requirement to gain a stack be too low then people can effectively just sit on gens or abuse totem blessing to gain "technically" free stacks of distortion.

Why would 'free' stacks of distortion be a problem if they're contingent on survivors actively engaging with the game?

'Perk functions if you play as normal' doesn't read like a problem to me.

Frankly, it's just easier to keep the chase requirement because you're paying for the stacks by putting yourself out there in the killer's attention. A simple give and take.

Not really. A perk whose only purpose is to keep the killer from finding you with zero effort requiring you to let the killer find you in order to function is essentially an oxymoron of game design.

I'm not the person you're discussing this with overall, of course, but I do have something to say about the idea about the idea of Distortion charging on Conspicuous Actions instead of chases.

My issue with this suggestion is that I don't think there's a satisfying middle ground for anyone there. Tokens charging via doing generators means each token has to take a pretty long time to grant, otherwise we run the risk of being right back where we started with Distortion being a perk that just flat turns off aura reading permanently.
The issue with old Distortion in my opinion wasn't rat playstyles, I don't even think that's really the reason BHVR nerfed it. The issue was that it was a completely passive perfect counter to an entire class of tools on the opponent's side, and that's just not great game design.

It wasn't meant to be as perfect as it was, that's why it had the token/recharge system to begin with, but the token system was so lenient and the recharge trigger so passive that it functionally did just disable aura reading completely.

Let's take a step back and ask a question. What is Distortion actually meant to do? My answer is that it fundamentally does two things: It provides some protection against aura reading, and it provides some information about what aura reading the killer brought, being currently the only aura blocker that does the second part.
Aura blocking (and indeed any stealth effect) should never be considered a way to avoid the killer for the entire match, just delay chases or perform specific actions safely, so I don't really see the issue with Distortion activating from chases. You should expect to be chased in an average match, so you will get tokens back, and Distortion will delay the first chase to allow you breathing room and the ability to position, as well as giving you information about what the killer's running.
Sure, you could balance the perk around gaining tokens from generators, but I don't think that regeneration speed would be particularly satisfying for survivors. I think the perk's in a better spot right now.

That's not to say I wouldn't buff Distortion, though. I've maintained for a while it'd be fair to give it both tokens at the start, so you've got a bit extra breathing room if the killer brings Lethal Pursuer.

I mean. No.

There's no way of arguing even the overtuned aura reading tools in the game at any stage were passive at all, let alone insanely passive.

I think the only passive aura reading in the game right now is Lethal Pursuer, and coincidentally that's the one Distortion hard counters. Every other aura reading tool in the game has a trigger.
You could maybe make the argument for something like Undying being passive, but I'd like to do you the courtesy of assuming that isn't what you're saying here. Any relevant aura tool has both a trigger and a timer, often having a distance requirement as well.

If you want a killer tool that actually represents the same idea and is problematic for the same reasons as old Distortion, it's Lightborn.

Sort of? There are definitely uses of it that could be considered passive, but I would personally argue the passive uses are the weaker ones, you kinda have to go out of your way to make Weave Attunement busted with something like the Franklin's synergy.
Still, it's a problem, and I don't think it's well designed at all in part because of how it at least can be pretty passive.

For posterity, problematic aura reading also includes Nowhere To Hide. Both these perks have meaningful triggers the killer has to engage with beyond equipping the perk, but both are also very accessible, very annoying, and warrant changes.

If you like, I don't mind that reasoning.

This does unavoidably mean Distortion is also still passive now, since being chased is a regular part of gameplay that doesn't require any deviation.
That is part of why Distortion's current design is fine, because it's now in line with how a lot of activation triggers work; it's something you do have to do, but that something is part of regular gameplay. It isn't passive (in my opinion), but it's accessible.

It's the same difference, in this context.

Being chased is as natural and unavoidable a part of the game as doing generators. Sure, there'll be the odd game where you don't do one of those two things, but they're very much outliers.
Same for killer. Going on chases is as natural and unavoidable as getting hooks in the average match. Sure, there's some outliers (and some more problematic ones too in this case), but they too are outliers, not the norm. Hooks are a reliable accessible trigger, chases are a reliable and accessible trigger.

In the context of activation triggers, they're identical. You're going to be doing both.

I'll admit to being more selective with what I was talking about than I should've been, but I do stand by the comparison to Distortion absolutely not working for any perk other than the one Distortion still hard counters.

To start: I do personally carve a distinction between what I'd call passive, and what I'd call accessible. Perks which do have an activation trigger, but ones that you're very likely to hit as a consequence of regular play, I would call accessible rather than passive. You still have to be engaging with the game for them to trigger, where passive perks are just equipping the perk and they function.
(Distortion, to keep on topic for the actual comparison, is now accessible where before it was passive)

Where I should've been more specific and did misspeak is in the rest, because yeah, there are some passive aura perks other than Lethal. I do still stand by discounting perks that have like, incidental aura reading, like Undying, but something like Bitter Murmur does count as passive aura reading.

What I meant to say is that nothing hit the level of "perfect hard counter" of Distortion, which is the claim I was responding to. None of the passive tools are even close to perfect, and even the accessible ones are still meaningfully gated; BBQ does not perfectly hard counter stealth and it's a very silly claim to say that it does.
Aura reading, as a class, tends to be meaningfully gated and restrained by its numbers. Comparing that to old Distortion is what I meant to say had no basis, because there's a world of difference between "you get auras after a hook, which is normal gameplay, but only on survivors further than forty metres away and only for four seconds" and "you block all meaningful auras for existing in the trial."

BBQ is admittedly a little more restrictive than some others, but most relevant aura reading is far more restricted in its effect than old Distortion was— even the ones you listed are more meaningfully gated than the literal action ascribed.
A Nurse's Calling, for instance, is gated by a survivor action and a distance alongside injuries, same with Deerstalker having a distance and requiring slugging instead of just activating on a down (to contrast with a non-aura tool like Infectious Fright for example).

Distortion was meant to be restricted (with its token system), but meaningfully wasn't, it effectively got to be a perfect aura block for no real engagement. Aura reading tools just aren't on that level for the most part, and any that approach it tend to be the problematic ones that get nerfed.
…Though admittedly I'm still waiting for Nowhere To Hide to be nerfed.

TL;DR the point is that aura reading is gated with meaningful numbers + systems keeping it in check, and Distortion wasn't, so the comparison just did not make any sense.

 but most relevant aura reading is far more restricted in its effect than old Distortion was

This is where I really disagree, and I think this is also where Distortion's history is relevant.

Distortion got updated to its 'problematic' form in 6.1, in July 2022. It did not get marked as problematic until very shortly before its nerf, which is two years later. Up until that point, it was a complete nothing-burger.

So if Distortion didn't change, what did?

Well, we got Lethal Pursuer, we got Nowhere to Hide, we got Floods of Rage, we got Weave Attunement…

Up until then, the primary source of aura reading was BBQ & Chili, which has a universally telegraphed use condition and ONLY works on those who are far away from the killer. You can also argue I'm All Ears, which only works in chase.

But Lethal Pursuer is free and uncounterable at base.

Nowhere to Hide reveals all those nearby and it's untelegraphed. Floods of Rage reveals all in disregard of their distance to the killer. Weave Attunement reveals all within item radius in disregard of their distance to the killer.

The old aura perks were heavily restricted with specific uses that left room for play. The new aura perks are just autopilots. And that led to the rise of Distortion. In a way, this also neatly ties in with the following:

TL;DR the point is that aura reading is gated with meaningful numbers + systems keeping it in check, and Distortion wasn't, so the comparison just did not make any sense.

Distortion is entirely contingent on the use of these aura reading perks. It only works in the exact same situations that the perks it counters do, so it really carries the same restrictions. If the aura reading doesn't fire, neither does Distortion.

But more importantly than that, Distortion can only ever barely do more than reset the game to base state, which is by definition, not overpowered. Its power and prominence scales with the power of the perks it counters since that is its only function. That is the restriction that it faces. It is not a stealth perk like Lucky Break or Dance With Me, which do something of their own and provide an actual advantage.

It just sets the game to default and nothing more than that. That is Distortion's restriction.

After thinking about it some more, it can still get abused. If progress it measured purely from time spent doing conspicuous actions then somebody can just cleanse a dull totem to 90%, stop and redo it again to get stacks which would quite literally be a case of somebody doing nothing useful to use a perk. You either have to ratchet the requirements up so you'd have to have to do generators to gain stacks making everything else moot or you leave it at chase time which is a far easier measurement to balance around.

You can absolutely do that, however it's just a lot easier at the end of the day to keep the activation to just a single action for the sake of balance and intuitiveness. If you don't want chases then I propose gaining stacks off soley repairing generators. 30-40% of generator progress to gain a stack of Distortion, that way it still requires a substantial enough cost and prevents any potential cases of perma-removal of your aura.

Old distortion was so unhealthy it either

A) If the killer brought 1-2 aura perks and no aura reveal add-ons it turned off aura reading entirely

B) If the killer hard committed to aura reading the the perk couldn't regen tokens fast enough and it basically did nothing

It was a binary either turning entire perks off or not and was extremely strong for the value it gave. It's weak right now but the old version was stupidly strong/did nothing which is awful(note: there's also killer perks that fall into this exact same camp like lightborne for example)

This ain't even getting into the metagaming of distortion allowing you to pick apart the killers perks by virtue of watching stacks for trigger events and swf.

Eg.

* Match starts and distortion count goes down? Call out lethal

* Killer kicks a Gen and distortion count goes down? Call out nowhere to hide

* Killer hooks and count goes down? Call out bbq … etc etc for every aura reading perk and 1 dude in a swf on coms.

If survivors can have one perk that turns off the whole set of killer abilities, how about giving the killer a perk that ignores Endurance or stuns completely as well? Not just "making stuns shorter, and only from pallets", but completely turns off the ability to stun the killer, just like the old Distortion completely turned off every aura reading perk and ability of the killer.

Buff Distortion with more tokens but also give it a weakness if there are concerns about certain players being TOO stealthy. One idea is perhaps the perk also reduces the time until you start getting afk crows from 90s to 60s; or whatever the default number is to reduce non-participation from the user. Another is Distortion delays your aura being revealed but it will still happen regardless (unless you enter a locker), so you still get the sound notification / token usage that your aura was attempted to be read, but you have additional time to react; so however many seconds it is (I forget the duration).

I don´t see the comparison between Lightborn and Distortion to be fair.

Yeah both shut down a part of the game play. Thats right but one says you aren´t allowed to eat choclate cakes with nuts while the other says you aren´t allowed to eat cake at all.

Let me explain.

Distortion reduced a quarter of Killer perks and addons aswell. If 4 Survivors picked it it could demolish whole builds by only sacrificing one perk per survivor and they still got 12 perk slots left to use. If only 3 Survivors picked this perk well… the last one will have a funny time to be found all game and most likely get nuked before the others. So it will become a must have perk and since this forum showed me that no perk should be a "must have" perk even if it counters strong Killer tactics which are hated… well… you get the drill.

Lightborn is a fourth of the Killers perk load out and deactivates one item (I won´t count firecrackers because most Survivors won´t go into the match with the intend to save with these while they still could take a flashllight) and some perks which aren´t meta as well.

If you compare these two over the point of "They both take something out of the game" than you can compare oppression with technician. Because both perks give you gen regression when you won´t hit a skill check.

Well let me put it another way.

If the Killer has Lightborn and you got a Flashlight. You shine at him at the first pallet and see. "Well he got Lightborn" so no use to blind.

If the Killer brings Aura perks and Survivors run Distortion, "well I guess I can just stop using my perks."

There is a huge difference.

And as we have seen in the time with the old distortion and as many others in this discussion said. It was a staple perk for rats and became mendetory to equipp if you didn´t want to be found every single time as the only Aura shown to the Killer.

There was a reason Killers AND Survivors wanted changes to this perk.

Mhhh nah I wouldn´t say that its the 4vs16 perk thing why I think it is okay. (Yes I think that Killer perks should be stronger than Survivor perks but it isn´t my top argument)

My point is more like this. If you bring an Item, Medkit, Toolbox, Flashlight. The Killer can take perks to counter these. Thats the reason why the Killer can adjust their build in the Lobby. Sadly if you would say make Lightborn so that Flashlight saves takes longer you can just readjust your timing and the perk becomes useless again.

The big problem with Distortion was the following. You got rewarded by refusing to interact with the Kill by getting something what helps you to refuse to interact with the Killer. Thats the reason why I like the new Distortion. You get rewarded to deny the ability to read your aura in chase while getting chased. The thing is, most of people who enjoy chase don´t want to lose the Killer because that means the chase is over and so you get better perks to aid you, while someone who wants to hide wants to stay hidden.

@Terror_Misu

No no just fine. But it is much easier to discuss with someone if they are on the same level of information. (I hate the "You are just nostalgic or you are lying because you can´t prove your claims, while I try to explain something that happend in the past)

The time of the distortion meta was one of the worst times in which I played DbD and I tell you that as Survivor main. If I went solo I was suprised. It seemed that every game I was found first by lethal pursuit and I tell you I like a good chase. But its getting suspicious if the hardest tomes for yourself are the repair Gens or hit Skill check ones because you get found first and after that tunneld out.

So I looked for the reason for the increased tunneling and I came to the conclusion. Ofcourse it seemed that the Killer found me first all the time because I was the only one they could find.

I got really frustrated when my two mates which I played with started to use Distortion aswell and most of the time me and the random were dead while they didnt got a single hit all game long while crouching behind a stone next to the gen while I got found by no where to hide 20 miles away.

So… conclusion either they drop the perk or I join them. Well… they didn´t want to drop the perk so I joined them and boy… I can tell you it was a disaster. Either we faced a full slow down Killer and our perk became useless or the Killer dced the second their lethal pursiur didnt went off.

Yes I had Dcs over Lightborn aswell but to be fair. I can understand the frusttration in a Killer more if he plays a build to stack and finish quick chase after quick chase and his whole build becomes useless because of a perk over a survivor which only started the game with the intend to run behind the Killer to blind him. (Just for Information I don´t have much respect against dcs for what ever ingame reason, except hostage holding cheaters as I don´t like to give up.)

Well I don´t understand how my teammates rat me out with a perk, to be a reason to nerf a Killer perk?

The problem was everyone could take it and it came to the point that everyone has to take it or you have to suffer for selfish choices.

Aunt Edith says: If something is so strong that you have to take it or you have to suffer than it must be op.

So… it would be better if all Killers just ran 4 slowdown perks?

Running Aura peerks is nice to get information ofcourse. But you will realize pretty fast that you miss other things. Full Aura Huntress is strong but the Gens fly left to right.

Now you could say… that the Killer could run Hexes… but Thrill + undying + Devour + Penti is hated aswell.

So… we go for an Endgame build? But most people hate noed because it is Skillless…

Aura Perks need to be strong or they will be just not worth it to equip when you could take slow down perks.

@Firellius

Most players run BBQ with Lethal. Thats why it is up there.

So I will kindly ask. What build would be okay for you to go against.

Or they should give Survivors the token that their Aura is being red like they got it in 2v8 althroug… most people don´t use this information at all.

As I said earlier… if you nerf Aura Killers will tend to more Gen Regression and if you belive me or not more to tunneling. Since they know as soon as the unhook sound appears that two survivors are at the hook.

You say that as if I have personally agitated against these builds.

You can run any build you want, so long as it is decently implemented and fairly balanced. New aura reading is not. If you want to keep them as broken as they are, that's fine, but then Distortion needs to be up to the task of levelling the playing field again.

You don't get to keep the nonsense on your side but then get mad when the opposing side gets a counter to it.

And if you want to argue that Distortion shouldn't exist, that's fine too, but then aura reading will need significant nerfs to be brought back in line. It is ridiculous to nerf survivor perks for the explicit reason that killer perks are proving too effective.

A Nurse's Calling lit you up right next to the killer and did not have particularly clear counterplay

While Nurse's Calling is indeed a solid pick for a less restricted older perk, it is still contingent on a survivor action, which made it a bit more niche, and gave survivors control.

same thing with I'm All Ears.

I do realise that I should be a bit clearer, because I'm All Ears fulfils an entirely different function. Nurse's Calling, BBQ & Chili and all the rest are perks that help you locate survivors so you can start a chase with them. I'm All Ears is wallhacks during a chase, it is not used to locate survivors.

Retribution

Again, contingent on a survivor action, giving the survivor control. This is probably the closest thing to new aura reading, but then, Retribution is a hex. Which shows how heavily the ability to reveal aura with such little restriction used to weigh.

Gearhead

Same thing as Retribution, contingent on a survivor action, can't hit a hiding survivor.

And that's the specific thing: If a survivor is crouching in a corner somewhere, trying to stay out of sight while the killer stalks nearby, the only two of these perks and BBQ that could hit you are Nurse's Calling (Only if you're healing) and Retribution, which is a hex.

I'm All Ears can't hit you, Gearhead can't hit you, Nurse's Calling can only hit you if you're healing up, and at that point, the noises would give you up too.

You absolutely can hide from I'm All Ears and Gearhead and Nurse's Calling and BBQ.

You cannot hide from NTH, or Ultimate Weapon, or Friends 'til the End, or Darkness Revealed, or Weave Attunement, or Floods of Rage, or any of the other options. The only one of the old perks that did not allow you to hide from it is Retribution, and that one was then considered so strong that it had to become a hex to compensate.

But right now, it is assumed that the killer can just see your aura 24/7, and, evidently, that there should be an expectation that they will. That's why the aura-tunnelling blame was shifted from killer perks giving way too much intel to Distortion blocking it.

It's a paradigm shift. It's power-creeped so bad that the game's fundamental perception has changed.

I'm not okay with that. Either Distortion needs to make a comeback, or the aura reading needs to be curbed. Hiding should be an option.

I'm really not sure that's all that much of a relevant distinction here.

Assuming we're talking about the survivor crouching near the killer, and not just in a corner of the map somewhere, the only things they're really at risk from here are NTH (which if it's appropriately nerfed is the dedicated pick for this exact purpose), Darkness Revealed (which may become a problem if that perk ever becomes good; I could see a world where it's fairly changed to have much better numbers but only affect lockers other than the one you opened or something), and maybe Floods of Rage in the same general way they'd have been at risk from Retribution from sheer bad luck in timing.

You can hide from FTTE for the same reasons you can hide from BBQ, you can hide from Weave Attunement because you always know when it's affecting you (altho I will agree that perk's design is frustrating), and you can hide from most of the other auras we've both generally not mentioned. They have specific triggers, only two of them are on demand and one of those two sucks.

This is also only looking at that very specific kind of stealth gameplay, and stealth gameplay is already a specific subset of playstyles. Not to say it shouldn't be an option - it should and still is - but that anyone who isn't specifically trying to crouch near the killer was always going to be revealed by any era's aura perks, which I do feel is relevant.
After all, Gearhead and Retribution may be survivor actions but that doesn't mean the team actually has control. You have to do generators, and in a hex build you have to go cleanse Devour or what have you, that means you're going to be revealed even if you're trying to play stealthy overall.

Even speaking to stealth playstyles, too- it should be possible, but legitimate parts of the game will have answers. One or two dedicated "catch the person crouching near me" perks isn't inherently a problem, it's only an issue now because NTH is capable of doing way more than just that.
Auras should have answers too, of course, and while they do have answers right now I do feel it's not enough. Distortion, Off The Record, Shadow Step, Object of Obsession, and now Eleven's new perk We See You are all good in their own way but there's room for more variation in answering auras I think, especially since most of those are fairly specific in which auras they specialise against. Not a giant problem but more of an open design space.

They still are, the rats just found other ways….. as like 500 people predicted here, but no one from bhvr cared..

that being said, its still not too bad if you take chases.