https://dbd.game/4rHHkF5
Trickster Update Feedback
Comments
-
at best, it put him moving 1% faster than a 4.6m/s killer. For a killer whos greatest weakness is holding w at that. MFT was problematic not specifically because the hast had no duration, but because it had no duration and unfair numbers. While also having varying effects across the roster, which was a whole other problem…
Post edited by Balrog on1 -
I dont mind the fewer blades, but they should definitely make him 115% again. W key counters him so hard I've started running trail of torment with fearmonger just to get the drop on people.
2 -
I must be coming across different levels of Trickster that I've experienced today. I've seen Trickster rip through endurance, downing with ease with Main Event in my own games today.
Easily downing people with their blades due to the lower hit threshold.
So, I don't know if my Tricksters I face are just highly, highly skilled Tricksters or if the forums are genuinely suffering as this new Trickster is out. I won't comment on his/her strength because I am aware of how it takes time to get used to a new version of what the killer was prior, but the idea that Trickster is completely helpless due to a speed nerf is where I get disconnected from what the forums is describing versus my own personal gameplay.
I literally watched today, not even an hour ago - a Trickster from my own game ripping through the endurance of a survivor, downing them, downing the person who unhooked them, and downing the person who helped unhook in basement. Now, this was quick succession and you could argue, sure - it was Coldwind but I do not adhere to this whole notion that Trickster is horrible. Yes, I've played old Trickster and this new Trickster from my experiences of seeing him (I was actually genuinely surprised that I did not see a single Kaneki - I don't know if that's a cause-effect here, I'm just pointing that out).
So, yes I learned to counter this specific spam heavy - I hit you with less blades. I will hold chase moving forward, I will punish you by doing generators, and I will get out of the game otherwise I am getting pelted at with less knives and a long main event that occurs.
But I digress, I am aware that some people might struggle with Trickster but I hardly if ever came across some noobie Trickster and probably can count it on one hand - but that is my two cents regarding the killer.
I just become very gen efficient just so I can get out of the trial, so that I'm not constantly pelted and downed easily. Don't even get me started on the new map full of dreaded 50/50s.
I love the aesthetic, I love the fact that Behavior put a lot of effort into it (even I still see the same copy/paste stuff, I am so surprised we do not have textured fruit?) - minor gripe, but why does the fruit look all congealed and alien like? But that is my opinion on the chapter.
My favorite perk from the chapter was of course Flow State because I like to play macro heavy, it's a macro perk - didn't really care for Five Moves Ahead but it doesn't fit my playstyle it is whatever to me.
-3 -
I done detailed posts in the past but i dont have the energy to do those post due to my feelings like feedback arent heard so i would do a simple post to cover why trickster should be 4.5 and not 4.4 as i really want this feedback to be heard:
The 4 key reasons on why trickster should be reverted back to 4.5 m/s
- has increase map pressure which is non existentent currently
- reduce the damage holding shift W and pre running does to trickster (side note even if you try to catch them off the lullaby goes nope to that)
- reduce the punishment of using trickster power ie throwing mode speed (why does he get punished for using his power btw? it doesnt make sense since its not a instant damage ability like the huntress)
- in areas where his power is not useful he can play around it much better (tall walls, jungle gyms etc)
i also want to put out the notion that if you bump trickster to 4.5 you need to nerf the knives hit back to 8 i want to say no you dont need to do that, you can keep it 6 and i honestly believe it wont make him op or oppressive as if you bump it back to 8 then you have the same issue that you had before chapter and current he just to slow to down survivors
i would suggest to keep it at 6 when his movement speed is bump back to original and see how it goes if im wrong and its to much of a issue then a compromise bump it to 7 but that a seprate discussion but something i want to mention since it connects to base speed.
trickster is meant to be a fast pace range killer and currently he to slow and the holding shift W plus pre running just leads to unintresting gameplay and makes a weak killer even weaker. i want this killer to be viable for all players across all levels of play and currently he failing
2 -
I have genuinely not had a worse time playing killer in my life.
1 -
I wanna love trickster and I really wanna play him more. But in his current state it took a total of 2 matches for me to instantly give up because it's genuinely so hard to play him. I am not saying he is horrible, he just has a huge skill ceiling, but there is a difference between a killer with a big skill ceiling and then just feeling awful to learn.
1 -
Same
1 -
finding survivors in lockers (not interrupting them entering/exiting, but when finding them by searching the locker) doesnt give any style points or refresh the combo duration, which i feel it should. also maybe pausing style rank decay for a second per knife hit, so that you dont down-rank in the middle of hitting someone with knives around long loops you can only get one or two knife hits in.
5 -
This rework was a failure for me.
I played a fair amount of him when he first released due to being a K-Pop fan and loving his whole aesthetic, but I quickly fell out of love with him due to his relatively low power level at everything except maybe camping a hook or basement. I had high hopes given how long this rework was in the works, but I'm sad to say, that I won't be picking him back up again after finishing his Chapter Quests.
His ranged power still feels considerably weaker than every other ranged Killer, with him only being able to deal fractions of a health state per throwable. Being relegated to 4.4 m/s doesn't feel justified to me in most situations. Maybe it's necessary for balance — I'm not an exceptional Trickster player so I don't know the ins and outs — but he just feels incredibly slow and like I spend most of the match playing catch up instead of actually chasing.
The style system is flashy, the UI is nice, the voice lines and animations are all really neat, but every match I play him I find myself wishing I'd picked any other Killer.
3 -
I personally believe that trickster should be 4.6 for a myriad of reasons.
Firstly the pros and cons from what I have observed.
Pros:
The combo system is an amazing addition as it rewards accurate shots
The Knives are very small so you can make some rather cheeky shots through small spaces(which your combo system rewards and is a fantastic addition)
The knives are also fast and travel around 55 m/s I believe.
Only 6 knives to injure is very deadly and feels very nice as the killer, and many felt that 8 knives was too many and took too long to injure(I agree with that as well).
Cons:
The time to pull out and put away knives might not seem to bad but as time goes on it does add up, and killer role is essential a time management game. His knifes are in a similar situation as missing knives really adds up and is very punishing for him.
His power that needs to land multiple times to injure, he slows down when he pulls out his knives, and slows down even more the more knives he throws.
His projectiles barely have any weight and travel almost perfectly horizontal which has several downsides. Like not being able to hit people over long range effectively, he can't huntress yeet a few knives across the entire map, and many strangely large hitboxes in the game that can make it as if a throw never happened.
I have mixed opinions on the 44 meter lullaby especially for the trickster. like I said above his shots are really limited in being only horizontal, and in addition to being slower then normal, the lullaby is essentially a big sign for survivors to start pre running which is really punishing for him.
Survivors are also far from defenseless walls, trash placed around the map, endurance, exhaustion perks, genrushing, body blocking, and pre running all counter his power.
Trickster in the hands of a good player who has invested a lot of time into learning his kit can absolutely shred survivors and snowball games if survivors mess up and group together. However in his current state only said good players can play him effectively. He is way harder in many aspects that discourages people other than the trickster masters from playing him.
People may argue trickster with 4.6 is too strong, in response I would like to introduce them to a little killer named the blight a 4.6 killer with a dash ability that can help him travel across great distances very quickly, and those pesky survivor speed perks and endurance mean nothing to him. Comparing these two is like comparing the lethality of a coughing baby to a hydrogen bomb. Even comparing the trickster to other ranged killers shows how lacking he is;
The Huntress vs Trickster: The lethal range of a huntress is defined by the huntress player, as they can launch projectiles across the entire map and even down you from across the map if they are skilled enough.
The Deathslinger vs Trickster: Their projectiles are very similar in terms of size and they can both shoot through small gaps. however deathslinger has a few advantages, like being able to injure people MUCH more easily as he only needs to land one shot compared to tricksters 6 to take a health state from healthy and he doesn't suffer from the malady that is a 44 meter lullaby(which allows him to both approach survivors more easily without them being alerted to his presence earlier and he can actually utilize undetectable effectively unlike a certain KPOP serial killer).
The First vs Trickster: The First's power goes through walls and he has an amazing traversal ability and trickster has none of the above.
The Artist vs Trickster: Her power is both fast, can go through walls, and can even damage if the survivor is close enough and there is nothing in the way of the bird. again trickster has none of that. She is also 4.6 speed.
The Plague vs Trickster: The plague has an easier time hitting people and there are several techs you can do with her to arc shots and manipulate the projectile speed. Trickster doesn't have that. Also moves at 4.6.
The Animatronic vs Trickster: He has both a traversal power, a stealth power, and a ranged power all in one kit. Trickster can't stealth, and he can't travel across the map efficiently either especially now.
Oh yes I nearly forgot trickster has to reload, he has to reload a lot with this rework, the only other killer that has to reload from lockers is the huntress I think all other ranged killers have powers that recharge over time or like the deathsligner who can reload whenever he wants.
Trickster has numerous aspects of his kit that hinder his speed and make him feel surprisingly clunky at the same time. When this is combined with the 4.4 movement speed he feels both supremely slow, bad, and gets completely steamrolled by any slightly competent survivor who can pre run and god forbid you meet a group of people on comms. I will say that Trickster very much embodies the phrase "give him an inch, and he will take a mile" as against people who keep making mistakes he will dominate and streamroll them, but against actually capable survivors you are surprisingly weak and have to fight so, so much harder then other ranged killers to injure people. 4.6 actually allows you to compete with good survivors and would make all the clunky slowdown at least tolerable and he could actually pressure the map effectively.
4 -
Pretty much the same reasons any 4.4 killer has for struggling. We still are in a pre-run exhaustion meta. With stuff like sprint burst and lithe to get distance ahead of time. Then maps have more shrubbery and pallets that people can just run around to make sure trickster cant hit them or spends so much time catching up. While everyone else cranks gens. The trickster drops they have a lullaby and a tr to warn the next survivor to prerun. Rinse and repeat. You can go to maps like grim,ormand,or badham and constantly run circles around the buildings and he wont get any pressure on you being 4.4 not even counting the knife slowdown. And either the options are nerf exhaustion perks (which would fix the problem for all cases) adjust maps to not encourage this style. Or just buff trickster. Which we know which is the easier decision to make and take less resources.
3 -
No one is going to play this killer after a few weeks. He needs 4.6 m/s base and more knives.
3 -
I get the point you are making here however it does have 1 major issue with it. The point you are making isn't more so a point but a personal preference of yours.
Let me explain. So you don't want 4.6 trickster because you really hate the 8 knife health state. While I on the other hand really hate the survivors holding W and pre running with sprint burst and having to play catch up/walking simulator because trickster is so slow at 4.4m/s.
So then the issue becomes which one do people hate more?
Walking Hold W Simulator 4.4 6 knife health state trickster or
Fast 4.6 8 Knife Health state trickster who takes slightly more knives and can feel like tickling the survivors.
They both sound like they have their downsides yes but they are at the end of the day both preferences and I think the only way to make a decision on something like this is to gather a Poll or Community Vote on what they prefer more since it isn't much so balance wise, it's just an argument on what people prefer.
I personally think because of trickster's new movement speed being really slowed down while throwing multiple knives they could even justify 4.6m/s 6 knife health states given he gets slowed down so much while throwing or perhaps a slower throw rate.
Or the big new thing to try would be the first ever 4.5m/s 112.5% move speed killer which has never been explored before and I think Trickster would be the perfect character for. Deathslinger could also be a contender for this.
For far to long has the move speed of killers been limited to the ONLY 4.4 or 4.6 when there are no reasons it needs to only be those two speeds, there are many other options in between a whole 5% move speed4 -
The only reason Huntress works as a 4.4 is because she's easier to play and her lethality is way better then tricksters.
Her hatchets hitbox is 2x the size of the hatchet model which is why they call her hatchets dump truck hatchets. Remember when they actually refined huntresses hatchet hitbox and everyone lost there minds until it got reverted? I do.
You reload way less often with her then trickster, she's actually playable on controller unlike trickster, no worries about decay etc I can go on and on
5 -
Wesker instant flicks, instahugs, and bounding off cliffs is bugged. He bounds twice from just holding the left mouse activation button and there's a strange delay between bounds that prevents insta hugs from being performed consistently.
Not being able to bound off elevation feels unnatural and weird, not to mention removes lots of fun from playing him.0 -
not a trickster main, but have played the character enough thru the years, update is really nice visually, and mina is everything, you should definitely make it a priority to launch a system for legendary characters (Claire, Chris, Tiffany, etc all staring at you) to get additional outfits, but cmon, 18-20$ is very expensive, its fine for the 1st purchase, i guess, but no one will buy every additional skin at that price range,
gameplay feedback:
- i could not tell half of the time if i had main event available, give us a sound queue, make the main even prompt flash, or something, but not too much
- the style progression is cool, but please for the love of the entity, whyyyy does blight (115%) just gets to stomp around like a giant while the 110% killers have to struggle so much just trying not to ge smushed under his big feet? (chucky was nerfed (s&d should be 8.5 m/s at least), hag is hag, spirit is forced to run green flute), etc, trickster has to fight so hard to level up endlessly throughout the trial, and the effects of s tier, i could not tell, just make it so you level up 1 time to s, then just (if you must make it decay) make it so it only goes down to b (whispers* just as low as any killer tier should be), all survivors need to do is avoid you and you're back at e, 110% killers should have strong chases because they need to drag their tiny little feet across the map after each chase, unlike mr Caesar (blight) who just ping pongs for 3 seconds and is already chasing you
5 -
How is Blight 115% fine but Trickster 115% too much? There's no consistency in balancing here.
Trickster could be made 115%, have his knives increased back, with no other nerfs, and he still would only be B tier at best. Why are we hindering something so weak?
His primary counter play is just getting held w all game long. This is zero skill and zero interaction game play that shouldn't be encouraged. The amount of time you lose just catching up to even start the chase is absurd. We're talking about ridiculously long downing times. 110% is reserved for killers with powers that also give mobility or fast down times to compensate, Trickster has neither.
This killer needs to be accessible to more players than just the handful of die hard mains.
4 -
I think with the removal of the 4.6 m/s its pretty clear this update is for Trickster veterans, not new players.
its not easier to get into trickster one bit, because you loose so much from every misfire'ed knife.3 -
In this game, even if a dash killer sticks to a survivor's back and misses an attack, they are allowed to continue using M1 while auto-reloading at 4.6.
If the deceleration is this significant when using power, then 4.6 is fine.
The only time 4.6 m/s becomes a problem is when you can continuously place powers that allow you to rapidly approach survivors, such as stealth, dash, or teleport, or terrain-ignoring attacks like First.For better balance, use 4.6 m/s. If you want to give the Trickster a unique personality, increase their movement speed through rank-ups. If you're experimenting for the future of the game, use 4.5 m/s.
4 -
I'd really love a legendary/visceral outfit system for these characters you put a lot of effort into adding to DBD, it'd be nice to get more outfits down the line for the characters, especially since they cost much more than the base one.
Please consider this, you get way more features for base characters (More badges, bloody prestige, perks, ability to change outfits), legendaries for their price should have an outfit system too.
edit: sorry I thought this was a mina feedback thread coz I clicked on a "Mina feedback thread" that got merged with this one lol oops0 -
I cleared up my head and thought a little about it throughout the day and now I think I know exactly what went wrong with trickster, so I hope this is helpful for the devs. I may be wrong but hear me out on this.
I think what happened with trickster is that they basically bumped the skill floor (I believe you call it. Sorry if im using that word wrong) really high. A trickster main/someone who plays enough trickster to be above the NEW skill floor this will feel like a buff. This is because they know what blades will hit and the geometry and when to pull the blades up or put them down, when to reload, so on and so fourth.
I'll be honest, I really like this approach. Part of me thinks that the intentions were actually really good this time; make trickster express more skill and be harder to learn, but once you learn him you can be really good. Also pushing him to use his ability more by making M1's not as affective.
However, here is where it went wrong in my opinion. They made the "skill floor" WAAAYY too high, making it miserable to play for most players as long as they are below that skill floor, making it harder to actually learn the character, and just making people not wanna play him due to how difficult he actually is now. You have to rely on blades way more as a newer trickster player, and at this point you don't really know how the blades work, when to pull them up or put them down, what blades will actually hit survivors, so on and so fourth. So what happens is that you can't really get value out of anything anymore and you are punished way too hard for not being good at him. Which as I said pushes people away from playing the character to begin with.
This is not to say there aren't any actual issues with him now. There still is issues (Like treating him like huntress even though he isn't even remotely like huntress at all) with his base kit.3 -
BHVR. Please don't give into the pressure of making trickster easier if that means reducing his skill ceiling/potential.
People are asking for a version of trickster that we already had for the past 2 years and it was #########. The issues people are having are things they need to learn to play around. Because 4.6m/s never solved these issues it just made him mid overall. He's not supposed to chase the first survivor he sees. If laceration is decaying, the chase should be dropped. Edit : It's worth noting laceration decay time is currently bugged and delays considerably quicker than it should
Maybe he deserves to be stronger but not in the ways people are suggesting.
Trickster has never been a killer that anyone can pick up and play and get great results. Hell even if you are good with him his results can feel below average for the effort you put him. But he's incredibly fun and interesting in this state regardless and this needs to be maintained.
I'll be damned if i see patch notes within the next 2 weeks that partially revert him to his old state. He has not even been out for 3 days yet. I don't want this game to be dictated by the loudest voices. DBD is a game with depth that doesn't deserve to be balanced around first impressions.Post edited by OrangeBear on-2 -
Does the fun start once you actually get in range and theres not a bunch of shrubbery, a pallet chain, Or the survivor doesnt have a exhaustion perk to leave you in the dust unless you wanna follow them for another 30+ seconds and rinse repeat? For instance tricksters own map in every way?
2 -
This implies you are playing him to backrev survivors which isn't how he's designed to be. You're supposed to take advantage of brief, frequent windows of LOS to land individual knives. It's why pulling up and down a blade is insanely fast compared to other ranged killers.
-1 -
Depends on the map. And stuff like sprint burst still gives a lot of distance to the survivor before trickster gets close at all. Which is one of the issues for 4.4 compared to 4.6. Which if they also put themselves behind cover and hold w from there on with putting stuff in the way you take a very long time to catch up or do anything.
2 -
Sprint burst is too strong against 4.6m/s killers anyway. It does not make it viable to chase them.
And yes his power is very map dependant but making him 4.6m/s does not change that, it just makes it so you can abandon your power to m1 instead. Which is incredibly boring and not viable against experienced survivors. Even if it gives him some reliability and consistency, it's not fun. This basic type of gameplay belongs to basic killers like wraith, myers, legion etc-1 -
I wanted to pop back in to this thread to thank you all for the great back-and-forth. There's a lot of feedback here that we're working through to bring to the team. It's no secret that The Trickster has a high skill floor that relies quite heavily on the risk-reward per knife, and that their perceived strength can vary map-to-map. These are things we're following both through feedback and game data, and will continue following over time, understanding the learning curve.
All that to say, the shift to 4.4 m/s was done to focus on The Trickster's identity as a projectile Killer, prioritizing skillful knife throwing over M1 attacks in-chase. I hear the frustration about this that some folks are sharing, as well as the comments from folks who feel it feels good, and want to assure you we'll continue to watch how these impressions evolve.
-1 -
I played around 15-20 matches here are my points;
New style is really good, his attack speed is fun, his movement speed is… debetable but my god now that main event isn't 8 blades he literally needs to reload once every chase. I know he reloads faster but it reduces tempo. Thats why I think his max ammo should be a tiny bit higher.And I don't think game registeres small gap hits because I literally never got 3 points even tho I did.
Style Rank increases attack speed but wasn't given exact numbers.And maybe as a buff we can give him 4.6 while in A/S rank? Or richochet basekit? He has so much potential pls BHVR
3 -
Please please PLEASE add I-frames after the first blade injury state like you do for almost every other health state loss. Too many trickster players just come back to hook to get free downs and injures because there is no delay between injure states with their power. It's EXTREMELY frustrating to play and would help new players a lot to understand how the game works. The inconsistency is frustrating.
-1 -
But hes not a regular projectile Killer, he has to hit multiple times. If 4.4 m/s was the identity of projectile Killers then the Unknown should be 4.4 m/s too because he has an even easier time to actually damage with the projectile. AND he can teleport.
To me it seems like BHVR's mind is already made up that Trickster should be a high skill Killer only.
But I am here because when you introduced the new Trickster update, you said the that one of your ideas for doing this was to get new players into playing Trickster. But I guess the only thing that has been done in that regards is the Style System.I also dont see how these impressions can evolve for any who are pretty turned off by how you designed him this time.
This is a video game after all, not a house chore, so there is not reason to play a Killer which is easily outrun by holding W, which you then hope that oh well maybe the player magically develops skill to aim while they are back there unable to keep up and getting punished for every failed knife throw.I think because you designed this Killer with high skill-floor in mind you actively bar new people from getting into it, so the Killer base population who actively play that Killer will dry up.
This isnt a comeback for Trickster until you realize the Killer has to feel good to play at all levels of mmr.
Which means you have to be able to play them much more like m1 because knife skills are not there.I want you to ask the Game Designers, Why they claim a Killer will be able to bring new players into a high skill killer, but you turn around and nerf the only thing that helped them bridge that gap.
To me this all seems one step forward and one step back and I'm already back to playing other Killers.
1 -
he should have trick blades and edge of revival basekit
3 -
I appreciate the assurance
I wanted to ask is the team aware of the bug with laceration time? Theres a post about it on beta hub but only 6/126 reported issues have been responded to so far.
The issue is basically the laceration decay time is off setting the laceration decay delay.
By default this means that the time it takes to decay the first stack of laceration is 12 - 4.4 + 4.4 = 12s When it should be 12 + 4.4 = 16.4s
This issue persists in S rank, where even when the laceration decay time is increased by 50%, it continues to off set the decay delay, meaning there is no benefit from that right now.
I think is a very big issue and should be top priority especially before making any balance tweaks.1 -
Who is the insane person on the dev team who keeps insisting on trickster being 4.4?
The people who are advocating for the 4.6 trickster have provided evidence about how woefully lacking trickster is compared to other ranged killers(like the huntress for example), he doesn't have the "range" to be the ranged killer in most games thanks to all the trash you have put on all the maps. Someone said earlier that "you should go for skilled long range shots" I would like to ask "where?" I can barely see people for a microsecond in the distance before they reach another pile of clutter that blocks line of sight.
Now I would like to propose a potentially controversial idea that would make all trickster players both new(er) and old happy…
Make him 4.6 with 6 knives to injure.
Wait, wait, wait, I can already see people complaining and saying"It'S tOo StRoNg!" but let me explain my reasoning first.
- Trickster is a ranged killer who has to hit MULTIPLE knives to just take a health state.
- His knifes travel in a straight line and don't really arc or drop so he can't realistically go for long range shots and cross map shots are essentially impossible. Walls and distance are his primary counter and most survivors already pre run so being 4.4 is even more punishing than normal.
- He doesn't have any sort of map traversal aside from running and praying you make it in time before that sable behind a wall pops the last generator.
- Survivors also have SO MUCH going their way in this game, longer hook timers, longer unhook endurance, shorter generator times, and busted perks a la the new and improved fast track making the generators fly.
If you want to say that everyone would run this I am going to shoot that down that idea right now. At most the majority of players would play this for a week maybe two and then everyone will go back to playing Blight, Nurse, Dracula ,and Ghoul(let's also not forget that Blight was buffed last patch because they fixed some of his bugs). If this proposal is actually put into the game then the people who actually like and played trickster before and after the first rework will both get what they want. If people are still going to claim it's too strong, no its really not, because look at the other top tier killers they are leagues above trickster and can win games significantly more easily then him, you really think that trickster even with these changes proposed will be as much of a threat as the Nurse and the Blight? Seriously? At least the trickster has counterplay, the blight just rushes and down you in record time, and the nurse just teleports right behind you and injures you. Pallets, walls, windows, and distance mean the square root of nothing to them, trickster still has to respect these things and play around them.
Heck a YouTuber/streamer managed to do just that, they made a 4.6 trickster that needed to hit 6 blades to injure and IT WAS BALANCED. If I manage to find the video I'll link it later.
Unless you make his knives pierce through terrain(this is a joke don't actually do this) 4.4 will always be bad on him. Of course you would have to adjust the other numbers in his kit if you do a 4.6 / 6 knives trickster but it is doable and would make him much more approachable and enjoyable for all players.
3 -
Ryan, What would the possibilities of you guys adding an extra brown addon which basically would be.
115% speed, 8 knives to injure
, max knives to 44 again. as a compromise for people who really need speed.
We could consider it training wheels, something to use until you dont need them anymore.I'm desperate for this situation to find some common ground for both sides.
I beg of you though, just don't make it a Ultra-rare cause that was really a big mistake with the Myers rework.
2 -
as someone who has mained trickster consistently for years,
with this rework, the 4.4 speed isn't as crippling in my opinion as the lack of a flow. the entire point of this remaster was for the player to create that flow, being rewarded and going up in ranks as they do so. however, a lot of the other aspects of this update, especially in chase, seem to actively impede that:
- the absolutely insane drop in speed with the more knives you throw just to land a hit with a much more erratic aim than before (seriously, i'm being forced to run memento blades to get that crosshair because the controls were nuked)
- the amount of carried knives being reduced so badly that many people, including myself, have to run brown add-ons just to not constantly be stopped mid chase
- the speed at which the rank meter drains when most survs are just attempting to hide or are on the other side of the map due to his nonexistent map traversal, giving absolutely no opportunities for style points
with these combined factors, i am basically forced to run constant meta perks if i don't want to get smoked, despite having pretty good aim after getting adjusted again. this really doesn't feel nearly as fun as before. that being said, how would this be fixed?:
- make him slow down only when he misses blades, and give a very small speed boost when he gets persistent hits. not only does this encourage new survs to dodge and duck, but it encourages the trickster player to practice his aim and create more flow, rewarding accuracy
- more max knives. this was my main frustration with chase was that i ran out so fast, even frequently refilling after every hook and search
- the rank meter really shouldn't drain that fast, especially when the match is forced into silence from his bad traversal and hiding survivors. running aura perks can only do so much.. if the meter DOES drain that fast, give more ways to obtain style points. great ways to do this would be whenever he refills on blades or kills a survivor entirely. the style points you get for destroying a pallet vs actually downing and hooking someone felt so insane, almost encouraging us to just hold w regardless as if that will fix anything
in other words, what i think was done well with this rework:
- more trickster lines is always a win (though i still do prefer him as a silent decorated killer sometimes) + the ui for the rank system feels very clean and i personally get very immersed hearing those silly guitar riffs
- the more aggressive you are, the more style points you tend to get, which encourages you to go in and hurt survs as intended
- the changes to certain add-ons is very accommodating (though i suppose that isnt saying too much)
- the 6 blades to damage with the new ui does feel relatively balanced, though the above criticisms greatly cripple some of the effects of it
yes, i am no expert and my logic is definitely flawed in some spots, but i think these changes could be taken into account along with others' criticisms. i highly agree with his skill floor being ridiculously elevated, like high mmr level skill without much reward. i've been playing him for ages and its difficult right now, i cant imagine how it must be for people just starting out who wanna try out a cool killer
while this update seems pretty drab right now, i am excited to see how gameplay evolves with this new rework. an add-on that's similar to myers' fragrant lock of hair would be awesome, reverting trickster back to his old playstyle for those who really miss it and don't want to give up maining their favorite psychopath
tl;dr - trickster falls short in flow, resulting in stagnant gameplay only saved by meta perks, but this rework could be incredibly beautiful with some minor adjustments for balance
0 -
This update encourages the correct use of Trickster, and in that respect, it has definitely been successful.
However, gameplay that simply involves circling a building for over 30 seconds and hitting it once with a knife to reduce the meter doesn't offer any excellent representation of skill.
The Trickster has neither teleportation nor dashing. This is a flaw in the 4.4m/s speed. This isn't a skill issue.
It would also be a good idea to add a 4.6m/s mode to use only to catch up when M2 is unavailable. Spring Trap has this function. This would only compensate for the flaw and not directly increase its strength, so there shouldn't be any problems.
0 -
please give us some controller settings. also the crosshairs addon doesn't seem that great.
2 -
Honestly i don't understand why he's 4.4
Best parallel i think of is Unknown since just like Trickster he needs to do more ranged hits to take an health state and yet:
-He's 4.6
-He has map pressure
-He's not broken by any means
I generally like the concept of the rework. It's nice that you get rewarded for being more precise with your shots rather than just spamming.
However, I think the level-ups (especially higher tiers) are… kind of lackluster. He doesn't feel like getting better/stronger.
Therefore, since its speed has always been an issue, why don't tie 4.6 to his rank?
Like, as a reward for reaching B-rank or A-rank? Just an example.
Also would be cool if the Survivors were given some sort of clues that could give away what rank is Trickester at.
I also have issues with Main Event, i've found myself too many times to avoid using it because it would "castrate" my movement and i'd prefer to just use my power at S-tier, especially when chasing in circles. Why don't allow Trickster to cancel Main Event without losing the S-tier rank?
Overall, I think he's still C-tier but a little more fun to play and a little more interactive to fight against… which i suppose was the whole point of the rework to begin with.
But honestly conceptually i don't understand why he's 4.4 at all times, balacing-wise it doesn't make sense.Post edited by Andrix_ at2 -
I also think Trickster should have kept his 4.6 movement speed. I also feel having less blades makes him feel weaker as well. Cause from my experience while playing on controller. He felt okay but also like I said weak. Due to the lack of blades and speed that he use to have. And sometimes he also feels weird on controller. Cause when aiming some blades don’t hit where they should go.
2 -
I was never a big Trickster player to begin with but since the "rework" i decided to check him out again. I played a good amount of matches, winning some, losing some, a fairly decent split id say. However i can not think of a single moment in all those games where i was actually having fun. Everytime i decided to play him again i was thinking "that last match was probably just unlucky, it can't be that bad right?" but every match felt the same.
In my opinion it's because he is to slow and on most maps it's pretty easy to break line of sight. I feel like thats what makes him feel even weaker than before. I think thats also the reason why everytime i load into a Trickster match and see that i'm playing on his own map i wan't to instantly DC.
I'm also not a big fan of him laughing constantly and in general seeming crazier than before but thats just personal preference.2 -
I think it's been said enough but he is too slow. In my last game I was completing the "escape 10 chases" quest. In one "chase" I got the notification 5 times that I had escaped chase. He was on me the whole time, one point in the chase I could even see him and still got the notification! I just held W and kept using my environment to avoid blades.
The times I have played him I find that as long as the survivor holds W and is not out in the open chases go on forever. That has been the case for me too. I don't even both with pallets or to loop just hold that W and avoid blades - very easy to do on the new map too.
2 -
After playing him more, Trickster is just a worse Huntress with far more steps. Trickster has the downside of being 4.4 m/s and has to waste time landing so many blades. With Huntress, I just throw 1 axe and that's it. Huntress is literally Trickster with everyone survivor on full Laceration already. I think BHVR designed Trickster to be "easier" than Huntress thinking that more blades = easier, but in reality, Huntress is the far easier and better killer. I would rate Trickster as low C tier. Trickster would need some very large buffs for him to become a popular killer. Currently, I see Trickster fading into obsecurity like before the rework within a few weeks.
1 -
Taking into account the frequently requested movement speed buff from tricksters, I think this might just be the HEALTHIEST way to implement it, taking the combined feedback from this post in mind:
PERSUIT:
- Trickster remains base 110%
- When Trickster is further away than 14 meters (about the length of shack) from the last person they hit with a knife or basic attack, their movement speed is increased to 115%
- Trickster's terror radius is always 32m
Why is this change absolutely great?
FOR SURVIVORS:
Survivors want to be able to hold some level of distance from the killer. This change would make it so that during normal loops, trickster wouldn't have access to their high movement speed during a majority of the loops in which the trickster is inside "typical kill range", allowing distance to be a healthy factor in counter play. Considering the highest frustration from the survivor side comes from survivors being mowed down from up close, this change completely avoids that frustration
FOR TRICKSTERS:
It makes it so that the frequently frustrating gameplay of having to sluggishly catch up to pre-running survivors or exhaustion perks isn't nearly as damaging to his kit anymore, eliminating the completely un-interactive and disliked gameplay that tricksters might otherwise encounter as the result of being a more unique type of mid-ranged killer. After hooking and walking away 14 meters from the hook would also mean trickster would be able to traverse the map at a 115% speed, further eliminating sluggish gameplay.
As a side-bonus of persuit, it will also function as a weaker built in Whisperer for the last hit survivor, which isn't too strong by itself, but is a nice mini bonus.
Why is it even greater than u already think?
Because this doesn't severely buff killers like Wacek, who are more than good enough to potentially even down 2 people with the 36 knives stack. But for people who struggle more, this mechanic could allow weaker tricksters that fail to consistently take 2 health states with 36 knives, to use the 115% speed to get their first injure and then try to get the down with the remaining knives, giving beginner players a slower alternative to also be somewhat effective as Trickster, without having to put the thousands of hours to hit all needle shots through studied loops
Potential tweaks:
If the side effect of being able to walk up to someone completely at 115% speed, then it could also be tweaked to trigger the PERSUIT effect on someone once entering chase with them. That way, the 115% can only realistically be used when further away from the survivor. (if player 1 is in chase and a 2nd person enters that chase, person 2 becomes the one in PERSUIT, if they leave that chase p1 should be the one in persuit again)Post edited by AlwaysInAGoodShape at-2 -
RICOCHET BASEKIT
This post is why I believe ricochet should be base-kit and how to make it so, in a balanced manner:
Ricochet is one of the most unique mechanics in the game that also allows a completely different floor of mastery. It comes with training your brain and muscle memory that allows you to take the killer to the next level. That's all great! But the sad thing is, it's an add-on, and for that reason, this muscle memory starts to backfire due to it not being in every single one of your trickster match because it's not base-kit on the killer. This really sucks, because this means that we will never see true masters of the ricochet mechanic.
That is why this post is dedicated to convincing you why to make ricochet base-kit and how to make it so, in a balanced manner.
Now some of you might think making it base-kit might be too strong, and potentially (but not certainly), you might be correct, or not. However, to do our muscle memory justice, we don't have to make ricochet basekit in the way you think. There in fact is a super unique and super cool way to make it base-kit so that every trickster main can use it to train their muscle memory, yet won't have the same strong impact that the current ricochet mechanic might have! Introducing:
Phantom Ricochet:
- All knives bounce (at least once) by default
- After a knife bounces, it no longer deals laceration damage, but it does reset the laceration decay timer
- When a knife hits after a bounce, it refills the trickster's knives by 2
- A ricochet knife also increases your style points similar to long range shots
This means that even if you only have 5 knives, you would be able to take out a survivor with just knives if you managed to hit 1 ricochet knife, allowing for absolutely insane high level plays. In this case it would take 7 knives to take down the survivor, in which 6 were direct hits and 1 was a ricochet non damaging hit.
Why is this amazing?
Ricochet is now a base-kit mechanic for every trickster, meaning that training your muscle memory for ricochet is now permanently a positive thing, and can no longer backfire. Add-ons like Trick Blades are unique in that they are related to muscle memory in such a high degree, that we should not let such a unique mechanic go to waste as a mere addon, especially if it allows us to make trickster stand out as such a unique killer, differentiating him more from typical projectile killers at a time where ever more killer powers are converging to look more the same
On top of that, it's the perfect mechanic to fit in the super well done style points mechanic. What's more stylish than hitting bouncing, non damaging blades?
Potential Tweaks:
- A ricochet bouncing hit also doubles the laceration decay timer if it's the last shot that hit
- Refills 3 knives (or another amount if deemed balanced, though more than 2-3 would probably be too much)
- Knives bounce 2 times instead of once
Ending Note:
I think this ricochet base-kit mechanic, as well as my recently proposed movement speed changes in the above post would be what Trickster needs to make his rework a perceived success in the eyes of many, where tricksters have a lot to look forward to with the new Trickster chapter, as well as a celebration for survivors that can feel comfortable that their trickster will be chasing them with blades at still the familiar 110% movement speed1 -
I'll use The game words Dreigonix used. This isn't a rework, it's a mockery. And I have a solution to propose. If the developers don't want to revert this rework, at least make a Common Rarity Addon that makes him be like he was before the rework (4.6m/s, 32m terror radius, 8 blades to damage survivors, faster throwrate, less hinder or no hinder at all when in throw state). He was fun and easier to play that way.
1 -
Funnily enough, in competitive/at the highest level, 8 blade trickster was considered a 7 stage killer, with luck only 1 kill. With this update, at the comp level the best trickster killers consider him around a 2 kill killer now, so he has definitely improved with the update, and right now, a lot of trickster mains don't really understand the style points mechanic properly, and how to charge it with long range blades as well as blades through thin gaps
He just needs some help at the lower levels as he is nerfed for beginner to medium trickster players0 -
I think this clip I found on Twitter Perfectly shows very clearly the problem with 4.4 Trickster. And I know some people will say it's just the map, but there are PLENTY of other maps that trickster has this exact same gameplay loop so it's not just the map I promise.
1 -
I think trickster's reload speed should be higher. We were told on the stream the intention was for trickster to be able to reload during chases but realistically you still can't really do this at s-rank. I suggest it should be increased more at each rank and go up to 100% at S rank
2 -
BLADE COUNT
There've been some requests to revert blades back to it's original count, away from the current 36. This post is about why I think it'd be a bad idea, and how it would be better to address the blade count issue.
One of the things that makes Trickster frustrating for some survivors is the lack of counter play (other than hugging corners). One of the best counterplays is for survivors to at least have a chance for trickster to run out of blades during a chase if they play well and manage to dodge enough of them to cause this.
For tricksters, it's not merely about the ability to down 1 survivor with 36 blades. It's often about being able to down multiple survivors without having to refill.
Downing one for a decent trickster isn't too hard, and would require (without laceration decay) a 33.4% accuracy, with 12 out of 36 blades hitting. That's easy! But killing 2 survivors with that is where things get hard; that would require a 66.6% accuracy. Considering that blades should also be used for long ranged shots to accumulate style points, you can see where the issue arrives.
That's why I believe we should solve the blade issue in a more creative manner; one that rewards good play, but also gives survivors a chance to escape, should they have played well enough:
KILL COLLECT:
- When the trickster picks up a survivor, 12 blades are returned to his inventory (for a max of 36 / more if there's an addon)
This means that in order to get 2 kills with 1 inventory, the trickster needs an accuracy of 50% instead of 66.7%, which is a lot more reasonable
Here are the tables for comparison:
OLD SYSTEM:
(Formula: knives to kill, aka 12 / total knives * 100)
1 kill = 33.4% minimum accuracy + no laceration decay
2 kills = 66.7% accuracy + no laceration decay
3 kills = 100% accuracy + no laceration decay
4 kills = impossible
NEW SYSTEM:
(Formula: ((x + 1) * knives to kill) / (36 + x * knives to kill) * 100 where x is the amount of survivors picked up and where knives to kill is 12)
1 kill = 33.4% minimum accuracy + no laceration decay
2 kills = 50% minimum accuracy + no laceration decay
3 kills = 60% minimum accuracy + no laceration decay
4 kills = 66.6% minimum accuracy + no laceration decay
5 kills = 71.4% minimum accuracy + no laceration decay
6 kills = 75% minimum accuracy + no laceration decay
Notice how reloading just has gotten a lot more interesting?! Under this new system, you can risk going into chases with a lower knife count with the risk you'll run out of knives, but theoretically, you would be able to sustain yourself on knives indefinitely. This means that while keeping knives at 36, we keep offering survivors a chance to survive a chase due to a reload, which wouldn't be realistic at 44 blades in 1 inventory
The blades returned would even make thematically sense. It takes 12 blades to kill, and those blades are simply received back from the body upon pickup. A perfect and more interesting middle ground for the 36 team versus the 44 team. Let me know if you agree! ❤️0 -
Why play Trickster when Huntress exist?
0
