http://dbd.game/killswitch
Diminishing Returns Response
For those of you who don't know, beHaviour is planning on adding a new update to deal with "Problematic Stacking Values". The sad part is, the current way that it's implemented doesn't even properly address the problem. In cases where the 2nd perk only adds a tiny amount, even that tiny amount will get nerfed massively, even if it's nowhere in the problematic range.
What's even sadder is that I already provided beHaviour with the feedback on how to permanently deal with all problematic values in the game perfectly in an older post in which i showed we could even make Leader work again with vaulting speed (like it used to) through the new problematic value managing system:
There's no need for us to be having this problem again or tackling it through a messier system
EDIT:
Here's the more detailed and up to date version of the problematic value managing system:
Comments
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Honestly I think this is going to get worse before it gets better and that's okay. I'd rather individual perks had more of an impact and I'm ready to go through the journey with the devs and watch the game grow.
A lot of my gripes with this game are to do with stacking perks, so maybe we should wait and see and try it out THEN give feedback.9 -
The funniest thing imo is that the main thing in this game that gets stacked is healing perks, but healing perks already have a diminshing return built into it when it comes to timesaves;
First 50% healing speed = 16 -16 / 1.5 = 5.4 seconds saved
2nd 50% more healing speed = 16 / 1.5 - 16 / 2 = 2.6 seconds saved
3rd 50% more healing speed = 16 / 2 - 16 / 2.5 = 1.6 seconds saved
The only time healing speed would actually become stronger from stacking if it manages to outpace the speed at which a killer can reload their m1 attack. Literally at any other value, having stacking healing speed is a self solving problemPost edited by AlwaysInAGoodShape on9 -
yea clearly my overpowered full meta builds of…Botany Knowledge and Empathic Connection was severely overpowered…
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Meanwhile, Pain Res, DMS, Grim Embrace remains completely unaffected.
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This is my main concern but I suppose the gen regression limit is in place for those, I don't really mind them on balanced killers.
It's mainly always been the high mobility ones they are horrific to face on0 -
Good limiter for perk design purposes. I have zero doubt there are perks "safer" in design than they could be, exactly because they know that even if it'd be perfectly fine on its own it'd get stacked with 2+ other sources of the same modifier for undesirable results.
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I can't say I'm a fan of this diminishing return system for several reasons.
It won't diminish the meta builds at all. You'll still be seeing a lot of WGLF, Unbreakable, DH, DS builds, perhaps even more so, since their stacked perks will be nerfed.
Assuming it only applies per Survivor, which will then spread out the buffs. Instead of one person running a full genrush or a full heal build, etc., you'll see each person running one gen perk, one heal perk, instead of one person stacking one category to fulfill a particular "role." So you'll see three Survivors on three different gens with one progression perk, rather than one person on a gen with three progression perks (just as an example).
On the other hand, if it does apply to the whole Survivor team as one person has suggested, it'll be a further nerf to soloq, as they can't communicate what perks they're bringing, nor can they control what their teammates bring. Meanwhile, SWFs will be able to coordinate their builds so as to avoid the diminishment on their return. If they truly are going that route, they might as well do away with perks entirely and do the classes similar to 2v8.As for the "Wait and see before giving feedback?" We all know no one believes in "Wait and see." Just look at the anti-tunneling and anti-slug system that was scrapped before the vast majority of us even got to see it.
I hope I made sense with all of this.4 -
I don't like this. The whole reason they gave for canceling anti-tunnel etc was that it dictated people's actions too much. This is doing the same thing. It doesn't remove your ability to stack but it drastically reduces the value of doing so, just like the anti-tunnel ptb, enough so that people will mostly stop having dedicated builds. I currently see a lot of different dedicated builds on survivors (killers, not so much. It's basicaly one flavor.). That'll reduce drastically now. People are going to figure out the handful of meta perks that work well together and we're going to have an even more limited meta than we have now.
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Yea I don't understand what builds they're targeting with this. Haste Clown already got toned down. Healing perks have built in diminishing returns already, are definitely not the meta builds and they want to make it even worse? Gen repair bonuses could maybe have an argument but does that mean just using a toolbox and with deja vue will cause a repair speed nerf?
Haste survivor stacking is a meme that takes a ton of effort to pull off and is fun for 20 seconds until the killer gets BL2 and catches up. Then you lose because half the team was doing nothing but trying to pull off a weird build instead of doing gens. Or you can be blamed by your teammates for being chosen as the obsession and ruining someones blood pact duo build lol.
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By the way they've said, it looks like it will be more on active effects for a single build. For example: if you have We'll Make It and your teammate have Botany, both of you will have your healing speed bonus preserved. Now, if there is Boon: Circle of Healing Active, both perks will be halved, considering the boon is stronger (the same as We'll Make it, but you understood).
Doing this for the survivor team is madness, since it will only harm SoloQ, duos and trios, leaving the 4 man with the upper hand in the situation.
@topic
Probably this is a test to heavy buff some weird/niche perks from both sides, so they can have big number by themselves without being too strong when combined.7 -
I'm actually glad about this change.
If done right, both healing and gen speed builds will be nerfed and we can justify buffs to weaker perks to bring them up and let them shine on their own.
Just gonna wait and see how this is all effected.-2 -
I'm torn on this one. Firmly in the wait and see camp because I can completely understand the worries about stifling creativity, but also understand why there needs to be a level of control over stacking certain buffs, on both sides.
Here's hoping @Rickprado is right though. This may be a way to level out some extremes so they can take bigger swings at overall numbers on less used perks without fearing breaking another combo.
Gonna miss See How They Run + Machine Learning silliness, though.4 -
Well yeah, this is to stop gen and healing builds on survivors. Let's be fr.
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Cool. back to the 2016 perks again for survivors. Prove Thyself + Botany Knowledge for another 10 years here we come 🙄
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What an awful Idea.
So building an entire build that is less effective then running the meta is now unfair? Yes, a full healing build is not a bad build and can be fun. But if you're punished for this, why wouldn't you just run meta? Running meta is already the best way to win, and now that's even more so?
What did the devs play a match where they lost to 4 survivors with healing perks?
We're not going ahead with the anti camp, anti slug, anti tunnel because it controls killers to much.
We're now going to punish players for stacking builds.
You want to fix this?
REMOVE KILLER ADODNS.
THEY BREAK EVERYTHING and are the reason killers are unbalanced.
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The underlying idea to prevent oppresive stacking of perks is totaly fine. The implementation thats mentioned just means several perks will be even less played than before. Also, it doesnt preven regression stacking at all, cause the implementation only refers to mechanical stacking. You can still run Pain, Pop, Eruption, Turn back the clock to halt games. Its funny how everything they implement is basically not or just unbelievable less refering to killer.
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Another concern is, I usually run Desperate Measures and Do No Harm. The Do No Harm would be fine on its own, but I run Desperate Measures mainly for the unhook speed. Is the unhook going to be nerfed along with the healing speed, even though Do No Harm doesn't touch unhooking speed?
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similar questions for how this interacts between killer power/add ons and perks, or survivor items and perks. will Clown bottle + a haste perk have diminishing returns? will a medkit plus botany knowledge trigger this? this seems way too heavy handed compared to just implementing a hard cap on something like heal speed at 200% or something.
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Probably not.Do not Harm doesn't increase healing speed, it reduces the charge needed. Probably Do not Harm + We'll Make It will still be able to do almost insta heals
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Personally, I don't think they are going to do this well.
First, there was no mention of how this would interact with debuffs. Let's say the killer brings Sloppy Butcher. Mangled slows heal time. How is this going to be changed, or are you just effectively buffing all debuffs, BHVR? How about Hex: Pentimento. Again, tier one slows the repair time. Are you planning on addressing how your diminishing returns are a clear buff to perks like this, BHVR?!
This plan is also a nerf to several barely used aoe survivor perks that affect speeds. Friendly Competition, Leader, Open Handed, Prove Thyself, Boon:COH… Most of these perks need buffs not nerfs. Are you planning on buffing those that are already barely worth running?
From my perspective, diminishing returns is designed to kill variety, thus killing the fun. Horrible idea. I don't like the classes in 2v8. They make the game extremely boring. I also don't want the time investment of unlocking all those perks to have been a complete waste because BHVR decided we should all only use a variety of the top ten perks and nothing else. This would kill the game. Build variety is what makes DBD FUN, without it, you have only the sweatiest most boring matches and you better believe that will lead the majority of the players right out the door.
My suggestion, scrap the idea completely.
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Applying it worldwide across entire surv team + allowing the survivors to see each other perks before the game begins would make this work really well in theory.
SWFs wont be able to bypass it or work around it, real skill would be needed to cordinate finally in dbd if you use VC and with real time.
SoloQ players would and should be able to see one another perks.. problem solved
-2 -
This is disingenuous because all of these perks have been changed multiple times, and regression also has its own diminishing returns-esque system in the form of the Generator kick limit.
You can argue that these perks may need more changes, or the Generator kick limit should be stricter, but using these as an example to oppose sensible changes that prevent bottlenecking, futureproof perk designs, and mitigate extreme scenarios on both sides doesn't make sense.
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So if these three obnoxious, ever-present perks continue to work fine together, but basically every dedicated survivor build is nuked, that's fine? Because it's not survivors that need the shake up. I already see a lot of variety in survivor builds. Killers are the ones clutching the same 6 or so boring anti-gen perks almost every match in a death grip. Just because they've had changes doesn't mean they should be exempt.
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So if these three obnoxious, ever-present perks continue to work fine together
"You can argue that these perks may need more changes, or the Generator kick limit should be stricter"
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Why just not give them the stack nerf too? People already cry about the very high kick limit. They won't go for that. They also already cry about the changes some anti-gen perks have already recieved, even if the forum was strangley quiet about the recent buffs to Pop and Ruin. If resi and deja vu get a stack nerf, so should pain res and dms.
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Nerfing the stacking of healing perks will only make people run the strongest ones and nerfing healing perks is undeserved, same with haste hindered. They were never that good to begin with and really niche builds. For gen speed/regressing stacking there are too many loopholes on both sides and what‘s the point of running a second heal/gen perk when the value drop off is so much to a point it becomes borderline useless.
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Because Pain Resonance and DMS aren't action speed modifiers. They're outside the scope of what the new system is designed for. Again, if you think the perks are unreasonably strong then it's perfectly fine to ask for them to be revisited again. But asking for them to be arbitrarily incorporated into the new action speed modifier system (when neither of them function as action speed modifiers) just makes no sense.
Especially when there's already a system that deals with Generator regression that would be better suited to addressing your complaints.
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They're outside the scope of what the new system is designed for.
If the system can't account for it, it's a bad system. It shouldn't be that this system, which is supposed to deal with stacking perks across the board, just so happens to only affect survivor perks, just because these survivor perks have more simplified and consistent design.
There'd be outrage if, following the system, Botany got changed to 'gives one extra charge whenever you heal for two charges', subsequently making it exempt from the system because 'well technically it's not an action speed buff!'.
If it's that rickety and arbitrary, there's no point in even trying it.
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If the system can't account for it, it's a bad system.
No? Because it's not supposed to because it's for action speed modifiers, its a system intended for that specific purpose because that is a specific potential problem. By your logic every system ever created is a bad system because it doesnt do everything lmfao. What awful logic is this?
Killer gen perks already have double limits on them, they either have limited uses and kill themselves/can be removed (hexes) AND there's the gen damage event limit that also affects killer basekit. The fact you think they need yet another limit is actually so far beyond bias its actual insanity. Killer gen perks are individual damage events that all count towards a limit the killer can do total, not just via perks and they arent stacking for effect boosts like gen speed, healing and haste does, they arent even remotely comparable to action speed perks, and especially not comparable to infinitely usable survivor actions like healing or repair. Unless you want to place an action limit on those too. You can easily wait out or work around gen blocking, that again has limited and conditional uses, adding another limit to that is an awful idea.
Post edited by Shinkiro on-4 -
That's the problem. The system was intentionally designed this way, to hit very specific things (healing and gen progression) while leaving others (killer's favorite builds) alone. They could have simply classified each perk instead of it being modifiers, so four perks considered antigens would be a bad build. But they didn't want to touch the most annoying, crutchy killer builds, while nerfing the builds killers complain the most about for survivors. No one cares about these niche Haste builds no one is running.
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what also sucks is hyperfocus stakeout and fast track are not effected. this change to once again "equallize" builds and the meta fails to address what a decent chunk of the player base see as highly efficient builds on their side.
wasnt there word of mouth sometime ago that they wanted to fiddle with a label system for this type of thing? like they wanted to classify each perk and then only allow 1 or 2 of each. this mightve been garbage i read on leaksdbd though. i feel as though if they wanted to force equalization in the sense of "we dont just want swfs running 2 loopers a healer and a gen jockey" i would rather the perks and the mechanics stay as is while were just limited combinations wise.
or just… cap more of this #########. them saying they "tried" capping stats in the past in the livestream made me irate because most the time they basically havent. my main, raging, suggestion during the haste debacle of last year was "if theres a threshold you as a company know you dont want exceeded with haste, why not make that threshold a cap" and instead they scrapped the whole PTB. now, in the end, i agree to that, but you absolutely cannot say they tried. the only cap speed ive ever heard of is with healing, and that cap is so high that you can dedicate a whole build to stacking perks without really worrying about it.
whole things just a mess. its gonna get scrapped like the haste/hindered changes last year due to backlash/people finding means to abuse it/make it suck so bad for one side in the ptb after 10 minutes because they admitted they didnt do a grand sweep of all the perks for readjustments.
im curious how the ptb will go also with the confirmation that killer add ons arent effected by the change. i would probably be excited to queue up as bffs legion and see how haste maxxing feels on him in end game, buuuuuut if i play legion on ptb all the survivors just disconnect before testing anything. honestly, i may never know.
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