Diminishing Returns Feedback

This does solve the focused " medic or gen jockey " Builds . However this does not at all shake up the meta . Perks like vigil still punish multiple status affects and removes the downside of shoulder the burden and dramaturgy . Vigil also further buffs the meta exaustion perks while not being affected by these ptb changes . ( vigil also works on killer powers such as freddy ) . Hyperfocus/stakeout with a toolbox are still able to run rampant . Hyperfocus should remove the increased skillcheck chance while being used with a toolbox . Sprint burst and lithe are still meta and will continue being so for eternity while other exaustion perks stay in the backseat . Dead hard is a good designed exaustion perk wish more of them followed that trend .

While I will miss playing haste Nurse, it is overall a very healthy, low impact change. I like it.

(I was going to make my own post about the system overall, but given there's a dedicated thread for feedback, it seems sensible to just paste it in here. Apologies for any weird formatting as a result).

Why I think this system is needed:

The diminishing returns systems is one of the best ideas the game has ever pursued, and is absolutely necessary to the game's long-term health. Naturally, a lot of players are going to be upset that some popular combinations are going to be weaker, but it's a necessary evil in order to prevent extreme scenarios and streamline the process of creating new perks/powers.

For those against the idea, I'd like you to consider the amount of high-profile instances of "over" synergizing and bottlenecking that DbD has had (and continues to have) in recent history (for both Killers AND Survivors):

Nurse and aura-reading perks; Blight and pallet density, and map design as a whole; MFT + Hope; Power of Two + Blood Pact + other Haste sources; Clown and Haste in general; Legion + 6.1.0 Thanatophobia + Dying Light; Call of Brine + Overcharge; Boon: Circle of Healing + other healing perks in general when it released; Vigil + Exhaustion perks; Singularity + Haywire; various Killers + 8.4.0 Thrill of the Hunt; Knotted Rope + Save the Best for Last on Houndmaster's PTB; various passive Survivor healing perks; various passive Surivor repair speed bonus perks; Skill Check bonus perks; the list just goes on and on…

The diminishing returns system provides a framework for tuning down interactions that have the potential to push certain status effects and action speeds into game-breaking territory. Of course, it doesn't cover all of the aforementioned examples, but it's a good start that covers a lot of them. With DbD being 10 years old now, and having such a huge number of perks and powers, it's no longer feasible to manually account for every possible interaction. Which is why we keep seeing so many of these crop up, and developer time ending up wasted reverting changes that would've been okay if it weren't for unforeseen the stacking/synergy.

Stacking is also stifling modern perk design. Take Road Life for instance — one of the strongest healing speed modifiers in the game held back by a convoluted activation requirement. The logical way to make this perk decent, would be to lower the activation requirement. But in the current ecosystem of the game, that can't happen. Heal speeds can already stack to be very quick, and an easy-to-activate +100% on top would just be untenable. The only way we can see perks like this be made decent, is to impose a limit on stacking.

Why I think this system is fair for both roles:

Some are claiming that the concept is "one-sided", and that Survivors will be more affected than Killers due to certain popular Killer perks not working via action speed modifiers in the way Survivor perks often do. To which I have to say, that these exceptions are already accounted for via a diminishing returns-esque system: the generator kick limit. Having two separate systems affect the usage of perks that work via instant applied damage would be unnecessarily restrictive and convoluted. Instead, any problematic combinations of Killer slowdown would be better addressed by fine tuning the pre-existing system.

Not to mention that with the bulk of problematic combinations dealt with automatically by diminishing returns, time can be better used addressing some the game's more complex balance issues, oversynergies, and bottlenecks. N.B. that Blight and Nurse are soon to be receiving long-awaited nerfs.

I've seen some arugments that the system is also "anti-fun" for weakening certain, admittedly fun, builds like being able to outrun the Killer with Blood Pact + Power of Two (+ optional further Haste effects). Don't get me wrong, some of these builds are enjoyable to use, but they also destroy the balance and integrity of the match for the other side that has to be subjected to them. This leads to bigger issues down the road, like queue imbalances, the frustrations of which far outweigh the "fun" of the build. Many PvP games employ behind-the-scenes caps, dimishing returns, or other mechanics to keep the experience fair for everyone — and DbD needs to do the same to ensure its longevity (even if that means some "niche" or "fun" builds get hurt).

The numbers:

The current framework is good, but the numbers are perhaps overly punishing when only two of the same perk type are in play (especially when both modifiers are relatively small). Personally, I think pairing up two synergistic perks together is reasonable and — in most circumstances — doesn't cause issues. Haste/Hindered would be my exception to this, as even small values can have profound effects, but for regular action speed modifiers, I think it would be fair to tweak the numbers so that players are allowed to receive more of the second modifider.

In other words, change: 100 → 50 → 25 → 12.5 → 5 to 100 → 75 → 25 → 12.5 → 5 (or some number in between).

Alternatively, I think the system could be changed to only kick in once a certain threshold has been reached. This prevents smaller modifiers from being unjustly hit. For example, if you had 1 stack of Desperate Measures (+20%), and an instance of Resilience (+9%) — does the 9% really need to be diminished considering the combined bonus isn't exceptional? I think maybe not.

Perhaps diminishing returns should only apply when a combined threshold is reached. 30? 50? 100? I'm not sure exactly where that value would lie, but it's probably worth exploring to preserve the value of combining perks with lesser modifiers.

Further considerations:

As mentioned earlier, there are various things not considered by the current system, that maybe should be. The proliferation of perks that grant bonuses based upon Skill Checks comes to mind as something causing balance issues in the live game that isn't covered here. The "bonus" granted for hitting Great Skill Checks should probably be affected by diminishing returns to prevent solo Generators being completed in 30 seconds with Stake Out + Hyperfocus. Neither perk seems egregious enough alone to warrant a nerf, but combined they're absolutely troublesome.

RE: "It won't shake up the meta"

I'm not really sure where this idea is coming from that diminishing returns is supposed to overhaul the current meta. While the system will surely adjust the relative value of some popular perk combinations, it won't — and was never intended to — change the current meta of the game. Much of the feedback this system is getting on social media and here on the forums is a criticism of the fact that the meta overall is unchanged. Which seems unfair to me, given that the system is being judged over something it was never intended to do.

Is luck affected by diminishing returns? I like to run Up the Ante with Slippery Meat in solo queue with sometimes a luck offering to unhook myself roughly half the times. It is a very fun build and if diminishing returns kills it I'm gonna be very dissapointed because there is no reason to run those perks then.

I understand the problem with SWF stacking luck, but removing team stacking luck should be the way, so us solo players don't get our fun taken by a bunch of people that just want to exploit game mechanics.

Survivor Meta is basically unchanged since 2017

The Survivor Meta is unchanged not because recently released or reworked perks are all bad (StB. Five Moves Ahead, Extrasensory Perception. Conviction, Do No Harm, Finesse, to name a few) but because classic Survivor perks have largely not been brought in line with modern standard of perk strength and design. A lot of classic picks are simply far too strong so there's no reason to ever run newer perks. When stuff like Sprint Burst, designed in an era of DbD where anything goes, still exists relatively unchanged, it shouldn't be surprising that the meta never budges.

I'm neurodivergent and sometimes my writing can come across as awkward or robotic, but I can assure you this was not written by ChatGPT! I'm a fanfiction writer — so I'm not fond of Gen AI use at all.

We can autistic boxing match in the pale moon light as friends then

I understand that this is more of a long term thing so w/e. I hope that AlwaysInAGoodShape's feedback isn't lost in the sea of people solely concerned with the here and now.

When it comes to healing im not sure its really viable. Like it will still be possible to run the perks together but the marginal value is terrible compared to throwing in a typical boring meta perk instead.

We'll Make It heals in 8 seconds. Why would I run Botany on top to do it in 7.11 seconds?

This wont work out the way the devs are describing. Just killing healing builds and leaving efficiency builds on both sides unchanged.

I still prefering a points systema like a store where u make your build basicaly with points, for example

u have 10 points to make your build and

Botany ( change healing speed)
Autodidact ( change healing speed)
Well make it ( change healing speed)
Coast 4 points to use
So, u can stack, but, u just can run with 3 perks, (4+4) and another perk costing 2 points

U need make a points systems, where the meta perks coast more than others, this way, never for the both sides can be able to run fully metas.

I have very mixed feelings on this.

I think for Haste, the new system makes sense since haste has needed to be more limited for a while now, and it's an effect that gets exponentially stronger the more of it is in play due to how it can affect the speed differential between survivor and killer. There are some pretty uninteresting to face haste combos that are currently possible on both sides that I have wanted to see curbed for a while. So I agree with the changes for haste specifically, though I would perhaps like to see a couple outliers addressed that didn't really deserve the indirect nerf (ie. Champion of Light + Fixated combo).

For other types of modifiers other than haste, I feel like this is a little too broadly applied, especially since stacked bonuses already get weaker under the current system due to how the stacking math works and the new system just penalizes that even further. I can understand perhaps wanting to limit 3 or 4 of the same thing in some cases or wanting to limit excessive penalty stacking to avoid extremely long interactions, but applying a 50% reduction to only the 2nd instance of an effect seems overly harsh in some circumstances. For example, self healing with medkits now suddenly makes a single anti-heal effect weaker even if the killer hadn't intended to really stack anything, ie. the medkit penalty is the survivor's own choice. And in many cases, there wasn't really anything wrong with stacking a couple of healing perks on either side, or a couple of vaulting perks, or something like Resilience with 1 other action speed perk. Many of the game's strongest meta combos do not necessarily involve stacked modifiers, ie. SB/Vigil, Pain Res/DMS, Hyperfocus/Stakeout, etc. and are not impacted by these new limits. You can still run multiple slowdowns on killer just as well as you could before for the most part as long as you remain somewhat diverse with your types of slowdown. The system also nerfs some more niche interactions like luck stacking.

I think a decent compromise would be as follows:

• Speed modifiers (ie. Haste and Hindered) have values reduced from the 2nd instance and beyond like in the PTB. I believe Haste deserves harsher limits than other modifiers due to the implications it has on the core gameplay loop and the reasons explained earlier.
• Other types of modifiers have values reduced starting only from the 3rd instance and beyond. The first 2 instances of the same modifier stack normally like they did before.
• This still allows some more build diversity since you can still stack up to 2 instances of an effect, and only more specific cases of stacking several effects would be diminished. I believe this way, this does still limit some of the extremes, but it leaves room for some stacking to exist and be a viable strategy without eliminating it altogether (or at least severely weakening it).
• Moving forward, some perks may need to be adjusted with these limits in mind, but I understand if that's more of a longer-term plan so I won't comment on it further.

Question: Is Luck affected by Diminishing Returns?

I think the Diminishing Returns Feature is a good thing to prevent situations where a perk needs to be weak because otherwise stacked with other perks it would become problematic/unhealthy. However, there is still the problem that many perks are way too strong or unhealthy in this metagame and do not get balanced by the Diminishing Return Feautre, to name a few:

• Vigil: Affects ~30 killer perks and ~75 killer add-ons and makes them much weaker, which means killers have much less addon and perk variety because Vigil makes them so much weaker and the most insane part is that even teammates benefit from the perk for a long time. On the other hand, the perk makes already strong perks such as Sprint Burst and Shoulder the Burden even stronger since you have 20sec cooldown on Sprint Brust which is insane while the abuse of Shoulder the Burden becomes even easier.
• Resurgence: Resurgence gives unhooked survivors 70% healprogress which means a heal can be done in four seconds - in fact the unhooked survivor gets this heal by themselves with a medkit in four seconds. That means survivors have much less downtime from a hooked survivor, which puts so much pressure on the killer for free (there is a huge difference if a heal takes 16seconds of two survivors or four seconds of one survivor). The only way to counter this is to tunnel the unhooked survivor because that way, they don't get the quick heal. This perk is just unhealthy. Heals need to be more reliable in terms of speed or activation condition (e.g. we'll make it requires one specific survivor)
• MFT + WGLF: Against this combination, there is no real counterplay for killers. Survivors can put the killer in a situation where the killer cannot pick up right away (e.g. survivor is under a pallet or a flashlight user is nearby). The pick up is basically free and if the killer hits one of them, they get a speed boost and if the killer waits it out, they make it to a safe place.
• Sprint Brust, Lithe, and DH: These exhaustion perks need a nerf because they are either too use to use for how strong they are or have an unhealthy effect on the metagame by punishing the killer so much.
• DS: DS needs a change to be less abusable since many players use DS alongside the basekit 15second endurance to protect their teammates which is just awful game-design.
• Shoulder the Burden: A perk that is difficult to use in SoloQ but too abuseable in SWF. I had matches against SWFs that just abused the perk to get a Deliverance back and to prevent my punishment for doing that. The perk needs to be more SoloQ friendly and only useable if the killer is for real tunnelling a survivor and not useable whenever the survivors want. (In short: Don't mess with hook stages).
• Deliverance and Wicked: Needs a nerf or rework to not punish the killer for spreading hooks and to prevent aggressive unhooks from survivors that put the killer in a lose-lose-situation where either a tunnel is prevent by DS, DH, StB but the new hook is useless due to Deliverance.
• Background Player and Sabo: It is okay to have interaction but since the latest buff to sabo addons, sabo became so easy while falshlight/pallet rescues have no risk due to Background Player since either you get it for free and if you mess it up, you gain a lot of distance. Nowadays, flashlight saves are so easy to get and free due to the longer time window, BGP, and/or champion of light. The killer has very little counterplay when a survivor is under a pallet or a flashlight user is around.
• Gen speed needs to be more reliable: there is a chance that a gen gets done in ~90seconds by one survivor or in ~50seconds due to fat toolbox and Stake Out + Hyperfocus. Nothing prevents a reliable gen speed - not even the new feature.

Another problem of this feature is that it cannot balance regression perks because they all work on their own and not in a stacked way. I would like to see a metagame where regression perks are strong on their own but weaker when fully stacked. Same with blocking perks (mostly DMS and Grim Embrace).

The feature is good and I can understand that you wanna wait before you change some perks but there are already strong perks that will not be affected by the feautre but need a nerf/change now.

I get the idea behind the change, but in practice the builds that perform a certain action the fastest aren't builds that revolve around stacking a direct action speed change. (For example, one of the fastest gen speed builds is Stakeout + Hyperfocus, neither of which directly modify a player's generator action speed.)

For someone like me who has been playing many years, I see a system like this and now feel like I shouldn't ever be running perks that stack because I won't be able to get the most out of my limited number of perks. I also don't want to need a PhD to figure out the math of how long something will take just because I brought 2 stacking perks.

I can't imagine new players having fun when another layer of (poorly communicated) obfuscation is introduced.

And I also personally think it's weird as heck that positive modifiers already have a system of diminishing returns in place but are getting another very complicated-to-calculate one slapped on top.

I'm confused at how this is implemented sometimes.

If the perk isn't always active, does the order of which perk is being diminished change?

As an example, if I'm running CoH and Botany Knowledge, is Botany diminished if I'm not in the circle?

What about perks from other people that affect you? If I'm running Deja Vu and am affected by another survivor's Quick Gambit, will I be affected?

Also, what about perks that have the same value, like Soft Spoken and Full circuit?

It does change depending on what's currently active

So in circle of healing Botany and other active healing perks less than or equal to CoH are diminished