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The First is not fun to play (against)

Title. Not sure why adding a killer that is basically a nurse with remote injures and 110% movement speed was an idea that got past paper, let alone a PTB and now in the live game. The funny thing is comparatively very few people seem to actually play him, he's maybe one in every 30 matches I get. He currently sits lower in pickrate than Myers, Springtrap, and even Nemesis, assuming you take public statistics at face value. But why, if he's so innovative and engineered for winning games? Well, Nurse is a free character and her pickrate is below Hillbilly and Huntress, I see her even less than I do Wraith or Pig. She has undeniably been the most powerful killer in the game since her release, by definition she defies the boundaries of the game's very rules, ignoring pallets and walls alike. What's the issue then?

They aren't fun. Ask anyone who only plays the Nurse, if you can find someone who does, and they will admit the absolute frustration you feel playing them starting out. The constant missed blinks, losing dozens of seconds of chase progress from accidentally teleporting through a second floor. And at the end of the day, what's the reward when you master the character? The same exact instant hits, cheesy downs through walls or around pallets, being stuck with the same two or three perk builds every game. There's nearly no variety to her gameplay, no charm to it that most killers like Myers, Nemesis, or Springtrap can have. Just blinking, and hitting. And most survivors, especially new ones, loathe playing against Nurse not just because of her strength, but because of that monotony, doing the same thing over and over.

I think The First falls into the same category, a powerful killer with little variety in gameplay and an ability that just causes survivors to find zero enjoyment from it. The Nurse at least has to move herself to you with her blinks, with The First, he places a snare beneath you that is in diameter noticeably bigger (or at least the hitbox is more forgiving) than The Nightmare's. This snare has an activation time of .6 seconds and then will injure you if anyone on the perimeter or inside of it remains there for the rest of that same second. Doesn't sound so bad on paper, but in practice, you have only 1 second to dodge this attack, which takes only .4 seconds for the killer to charge, and .6 seconds for it to deploy. Meaning, even if you watch the killer and wait some kind of counterplay animation or noise he makes casting it, you can only ever get 1 full second before you take damage, which leaves you with only half a second to react, and with the way netcode works, the chances of you managing to make a half-second reaction and move your survivor out of the circle fast enough are close to nil. And that's without accounting for the impossibility of escaping a well-placed snare, as if you're caught directly in the middle its guaranteed death.

But all of this could be okay, with the counterplay mechanic of listening to music to limit the time he can damage with the snare/vine attack. If he's only able to use his ability for a limited amount of time, then that's counterable! You know, if he couldn't cast his ability once every 3 seconds. He gets slowed down to 3m/s when he does so, but in gameplay he can quite literally spam it every 3 seconds and down you fully in 6 seconds regardless of how good you loop or how far you run. This is a killer whose design quite literally only has the counter of "get lucky if they're bad and miss" or "hold W for as long as you can." And that's not mentioning that trying to dodge their ability could lead to you walking into their missed attack and dying that way. There's virtually zero skill involved, its brainless point and click with almost no cooldown. It makes killers like The Cannibal seem like a technical tyrant to learn and master, considering he actually HAS to loop the survivors he chases. If a Cannibal player goes against survivors that can predict when to drop a pallet against his chainsaw, he loses, every time. When a First player gets within 15 meters of you, its Goodnight Irene! Good at the game? Doesn't matter. Welcome to 50/50 simulator! Where if the killer knows how to point and click, and you didn't predict he was going to click .4 seconds ago, you lose!

If there were ever a killer in this game that needed a stats nerf, and it wasn't launch day Ghoul, its this guy. I think the reason he doesn't have as many people playing him as the Ghoul still does today is because he's literally just boring. I haven't played him yet but from watching gameplay and playing against him, it really does seem like old Freddy if his snares instantly casted and could damage you. Which seems just, awful. Does anyone on the forums here genuinely find this character fun to play as or against? And I don't mean like just in one instance you had fun, I mean like playing against The Unknown, Demogorgon, or Nemesis kind of fun. I desperately want to like this killer but no amount of practice or research has led me to a way of consistently dodging his ability, and it leaves me being the only person in my matches who doesn't give up or disconnect against him.

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Comments

  • Mysore
    Mysore Member Posts: 44
    edited April 19
  • Mysore
    Mysore Member Posts: 44

    Man, I’ve always enjoyed facing Vecna since the game launched. The 50/50 matchup is fun, but it used to annoy me to face Vecna when he was holding the M2. Last week I bought it, and now I’m spamming Vecna every match. My advice is that you buy it to understand how its add-ons work. With Vecna, you have to play assuming he’s always seeing auras—whether through perks or, more importantly, his add-ons. Facing a SWF who knows his meta aura add-ons is a guaranteed loss. I’ve managed to turn many matches around thanks to his best add-on, which reveals survivors’ auras when they finish interacting with the clock. And while it seems easy to hit his M2, you’ll often encounter survivors with soap—no matter where you throw the M2, luck is on their side. And the strongest counterplay against him—which is why few players use him—is his W; pre-leave is extremely powerful.

  • cogsturning
    cogsturning Member Posts: 3,142

    He already got nerfed. He doesn't need another one. He is much easier to juke than Nurse. He can't move his body through space and all survivors have to do is pre-run and hold W to destroy him. Just a little bit of unpredictable movement in chase when he is in range and he'll struggle to hit you. Pretty sure the teams that have left me with two hooks had plenty of fun playing against me.

    Comparing him to Ghoul is wild. I think he's fun to play, but he's not braindead easy like Ghoul. That's a totally different audience than a slow, prediction-based killer.

  • UnicornMedal
    UnicornMedal Member Posts: 1,964

    Being able to snipe through floors and Mori right off hook was pretty insane. But overall he's not too bad in my opinion. I haven't seen much of him at all in a while which leads me to believe he's not super powerful anymore. 😅

  • KatsuhxP
    KatsuhxP Member Posts: 1,682
    edited April 20

    Honestly I can't really understand your problem, I didn't play against an vecna with 11k hours yet, but those I saw placed the vine-attacks on themself good but I could still react and dodge.

    Vecna has pretty much the same weaknesses like nurse so you just want to break line of sight, if you do this he's already much weaker because he completely has to predict where you are and go. In difference to nurse he also doesn't instakill you on open fields, of course he sees you there at all times, but you also don't have to loop around anything so you can just hold w and concentrate on dodging because he doesn't make much distance (half a second is honestly quite a lot, I would say it's not that much difference to a fully charged huntress throw).

    Ps:

    It was actually pretty fun to play against them.

  • SoGo
    SoGo Member Posts: 4,558

    He is basically just Nurse with different packaging.

    If you enjoy facing Nurse, you enjoy facing Vecna and vice versa.

    I hate playing against both.

    The main stupid thing about him is how easy it is to keep up Worldbreaker. No matter what, survivors get screwed. You do clocks, you are practically just wasting time. You don't do clocks, and Worldbreaker lasts basically forever.

    You cannot use the "but he takes 4 hits to down" argument because realistically, he is in Worldbreaker 80% of the match.

  • Royval
    Royval Member Posts: 1,311

    I would have to agree look at slinger and look at vecna I have no idea how vecna has stayed 4.4 for this long

  • MechWarrior3
    MechWarrior3 Member Posts: 5,867

    Hot-take but I dont mind facing nurse and I really like facing The First.

  • PetTheDoggo
    PetTheDoggo Member Posts: 2,374
    edited April 20

    The First is probably in my top 3 favorite killers to play against.

    Probably my only issue is duration of Wordbreaker. Otherwise chasing him is quite fun for me.

  • Wezqu
    Wezqu Member Posts: 1,515

    Its either the duration of it or the speed he can get it back up again. Some minor tweaks would be good still.

  • Rick1998
    Rick1998 Member Posts: 541

    i just use exaustion is hold w against him . My team is gen efficient and we escape . Played against 3 henry's today alone and in only one match did he get a 1k.

  • Cornil
    Cornil Member Posts: 8

    The problem I describe in the post that makes him genuinely baffling to me is the cooldown. The timings just don't make sense. Pyramid-head has to take an entire second to start dragging his power, another half second before he can swing with it, and then his camera movement is locked after a second's worth of movement. Rough estimates here but I've played against him and as him frequently, and the timings are fair, make sense, and allow both the survivor and killer to counter each other.

    Every time I've played against the new Vecna (maybe about 12 matches in total), I've been obliterated in 4 hits within 15 seconds of chase, or worldbreaker is active and he two shots me in like 10 seconds tops. I've literally had my survivor's pinkie toe touching about a pixel of the edge of the circle and been downed by it. Its virtually unescapable within 10 to 15 meters, and I've been sniped at nearly 20 in tight areas. Pyramid-head has about 3 seconds of buffer before he swings, assuming he swings immediately, and there's a travel time delay for his judgement ability to reach the survivor, giving time for them to doge the meter wide hitbox. The First has a 1.5 meter circle he can spawn directly beneath your feet, it takes 1 second for him to activate it and you get very little over half a second to react and "dodge" it. I've found it completely impossible to dodge if the killer can see you, or if he knows the layout of where you're looping at. Holding W really can't be a viable strategy for more than 15 seconds of chase, considering he can tunnel around the map with his other ability (and that damages you too if you're nearby it for some reason).

    I understand the Stranger Things license is huge, they want a very well engineered killer to hype it up and want him to be strong enough to get people's attention. In that department, they did a great job, big success. However, The Ghoul, a character who released almost exactly a year ago, has an incredibly higher pickrate. Is it really because Ghoul is entirely brainless to play, or is it because The First is just boring? I personally don't enjoy playing killers that I find frustrating as a survivor. The Executioner, The Cenobite, The Unknown, they all have ranged attacks at varied levels of balance based on their secondary abilities. Cenobite has passive from the box, Unknown has a teleport ability, and Executioner has cages. I can get behind this killer's balancing, but only if it genuinely feels possible to avoid. The Ghoul's free hits are his most controversial aspect, if he just had the dash and nothing else no one would care. Free hits, or rather the feeling they invoke, one of complete helplessness and inability to interact with the game, frustrates the player. It doesn't feel like they deserved to go down, or that the killer earned the down.

    Of those 12 matches I've played against the new Vecna, you wanna know how many I won? One, and only because the killer disconnected when a survivor (who was probably cheating) led them on a 2 minute chase from game start. Of the other 11, I lost every time, and I want to say at the very least half of them were because teammates disconnected or gave up after the first few instant downs rolled in. I tried to use every match as an opportunity for practice, and seriously, as much as I hated learning how to counter the Ghoul, countering this killer genuinely feels impossible. Its not a good feeling whatsoever when the only hope of winning a chase is the killer making mistake after mistake until they get bored of spamming you and decide to leave you alone for a bit.

  • Anti051
    Anti051 Member Posts: 947

    Seems like anything that can challenge survivors receives the 'not fun to go against' label in an effort to get it nerfed.

  • Elan
    Elan Member Posts: 1,765

    But going against 40 exhaustion perks, 50 second chances perks, invincibility perks etc. is fun. Noted. I gave up to want killers have some sort of love from community or developers. It's just about survivors having fun and killers being there to fill the lobby.

  • KatsuhxP
    KatsuhxP Member Posts: 1,682

    I mean his attack comes trough pretty quickly that's true, but I'm still able to dodge him most of the time. I also had times where I was downed in 15 seconds, but that was because I stayed at a loop for too long and failed in predicting where he places his attacks and therefore didn't react quick enough.

    You have to play him on open fields like a huntress or any ranged killer really, so you place the attacks where you assume the survivor to go. That makes it that you can in theory bait him to place it wrong, also that means he will probably place his attacks not fully onto you but close to you in the direction he assumes you will dodge too. That makes it easier again to dodge it.

    Don't know anymore if you played him yourself, but just try it maybe. He's actually not so bad to dodge like you think, other survivors will probably show you that then.

  • Cornil
    Cornil Member Posts: 8

    Not sure how you read my post and got "its challenging so its bad" out of what I said.

    My whole point is it doesn't challenge me at all, it feels entirely unchallenging, just luck based whether or not the killer can predict where I'll be standing in .6 seconds lol

  • Cornil
    Cornil Member Posts: 8

    I literally play more killer than survivor and yeah the balance and meta is probably at the 4th or 5th lowest point its ever been, which for this game and all its low points is pretty bad. But I have to say my killer experience has been "damn, I lost to people who were cheating/just better," compared to my survivor experience which is "If I don't 1v1 the killer for at least 60 seconds then my entire team is going to get slugged and/or face-camped into oblivion the moment I get hooked." Its barely comparable. Killer perks and abilities are always problematic, its inherent of the asymmetric design of the game. But survivor perks are an easy fix, every survivor is on the same base mechanics.

    I think the reason half of the killer experience is so terrible right now isn't even because of perks, despite this meta. I've been witnessing something else a lot more sinister. Like 4-man outs only getting 4 hooks in 2 minutes, using all 4 pain resonance tokens and dead-mans switch, constantly patrolling generators. Same survivors having no generator perks, no fast-track, no prove thyself, no toolboxes, nothing. And they still finish all 5 generators in under 5 minutes. And unless they changed it in the half-year I took a break from the game, it takes 90 seconds to finish one generator alone. Pretty sure 1 in every 10 survivor players are just cheating at this point. I've watched people lose collision without using maps/keys, I just swing straight into them and hit air. I've had three survivors in front of me one time and the missing survivor completed two generators 2 seconds apart on separate corners of the map. Genuinely the cheating problem in this game is far worse now than any balancing issue I've experienced playing this game. Quite literally the first game back from my break was against a DnD Vecna who lost so bad playing legit that at the last generator he decided to just start flying across the map at mach 5 while spam swinging at the air and downing everyone at the same time.

    But I digress. If you genuinely read my post, the whole thing, just know that this isn't a matter of wanting to give killers an even harder time. Its just about this one killer, who I've genuinely seen no way to beat legitimately other than just gen-rushing and playing like a rat the whole game.

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