http://dbd.game/killswitch
Diminishing Returns Sucks
Nice one Bhvr, I can't believe this actually got through the PTB.
I've expressed an opinion on this subject already, stating that the argument is to be made that it's a healthy change for the game, which is still technically true. However, it's not healthy in the sense of what DbD has been saying they're trying to do with the perk situation.
In this one update Bhvr have single handedly killed any & all potential build variety, they've destroyed not only the strong perks but made the weaker perks EVEN WORSE! Other than general speeds for survivors & haste for killers I don't think anything needed altering in this way, for anyone who says healing if you're a dedicated medic or just healing yourself fast you're not contributing to the gen speeds you're also likely to be more altruistic which is good for survivors. I'm not arguing on either side, it affects the part of the game which in my opinion needed encouragement not a reason to neglect certain perks instead. Killers will still get to stack regression perks & keep locking off gems, survivors however only have any form of strength in perks once they stack effects. So this overall nerfed survivors more than killers. That's just a fact.
I don't care which side got hit worse though I see which side benefits more but both sides lose in the worst regard. Build crafting is now redundant, build potential doesn't exist. Thanks to this update Bhvr (despite saying prior they wanted to make older or other perks more relevant) have made META ONLY a thing now.
You have no reason to use the lower end perks because there's just inherently better options. There's no reason to make a build to get insane speed on something because the effects are useless after 2 perks. Crazy numbers or funny stats are gone, just run the meta like everyone else. Same perks from every survivor & killer every game, annoying the hell out of each other & that's it.
There was a better, safer, healthier way to make this change. It also maybe could've & should've only affected certain variables. Not like this. Not only is it complicated & needlessly complex, it's hurting the game more than helping it at this point. I can't be the only one who understands that.
Comments
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The only way this would be acceptable is if several perks got buffed in an actually meaningful way so that you don't need to stack. Cuz like 5% haste SOMETIMES isn't really that good on it's own. It can be good and get hits that you wouldn't have gotten, but even then it just feels so small.
Also diminishing returns feels a bit too HARSH, I guess. 100%, to 50%, to 25% feels like too much. But I haven't tried it myself.4 -
Does BHVR wanna like… actually address the actual problamatic builds or just kill the least problamatic crap ever so that we get ghoul with Meta EVEN MORE NOW? (<killer main btw)
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I can't believe this actually got through the PTB.
PTBs are not for feedback(, they are for advertisement). Otherwise they would have buffed ghost face in more significant ways, same with some of the other killers, who the majority agreed that these buffs are nothing burgers and super lackluster.
Back to the topic: Yeah diminishing returns sucks and makes no sense on how it is implemented, especially when they do zero perk changes alongside it.
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The thing you must understand is that they want to do meaningful buffs to those perks now that dr works the problem is that bhvr strictly holds on to their update schedule which means those buffs will be tested with the next regularly planned PTB.
The did the same mistake with anti tunnel and anti slug. They need dedicated pubs for big changes like this
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The only way this would be acceptable is if several perks got buffed in an actually meaningful way so that you don't need to stack.
Yes, but the there are two problems here:
First Diminishing Returns basically set a cap on how much certain Perks can be buffed. For example Power of Two (5%) and Bloodpact (7%) were used together. So apparently 12% Haste was too much, now it would be 9,5% Haste. However, you cannot really buff those Perks much, because if you stack them again you might end up at 12% again. Hard caps would have been better, this would allow individiually strong Perks without the fear of them getting too strong. (Even tho this example is outdated, since it only really worked on Midwich and you cannot get there reliably anymore)
Hope is another example, at 5% the Perk is not really used, at 7% it was used. And 7% was a justified value for a Perk you only get when you survive until Endgame. But I doubt that it will be buffed, since it was not stacked with other Perks anymore.
And the second problem is that the Devs did not buff any of the Perks which are affected by Diminishing Returns. We know that those are mainly Perks which are not worth taking alone so the only data the Devs will get is "People are not using this Perk anymore"… Which was already clear before. They should have buffed many Perks which are affected by Diminishing Returns just to see if they are fine now, still too good or still too weak. But just slapping Diminishing Returns on and do nothing else is the wrong move.
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One thing I want to make sure is clear about diminishing returns is that we're not looking at this as a one-and-done change. We're looking at diminishing returns as an ongoing process. This is why it's not being paired with wider perk changes, as I've seen some folks request. When making a broader systems change like this, it's often important to limit the number of simultaneous, linked changes so you can better monitor and understand the impact of the bigger-picture change. Then, equipped with that knowledge, it can help inform whether more granular changes (i.e. perk adjustments) are needed.
We're actively monitoring feedback, so please, play around with diminishing returns and continue to stretch and prod at it. If there are specific things that are causing friction (i.e. perks that feel particularly impacted by this change), let us know and we'll bring it back to the team.
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Thats… honestly a good strategy. Though personally, I think having them in PTB's and just monitoring them there and making changes and updates slowly would have been a bit better. Then again many people might not play the PTB which could make it not be as accurate, but still.
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PTBs are definitely an important part of this (and we got a lot of great notes from the last PTB!), but as you alluded to, these only reach one segment of the wider DbD community. PTBs help set the groundwork with feedback, and then player response on Live helps further refine, if necessary.
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You all said something similiar with Skull merchant, and here we are a year later no rework and she is gutted.
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You guys aren't exactly known for your speed of action. When can we expect changes that make this not seem like a bad idea? Years from now? How much patience and forgiveness do you think people will give?
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This should happen pretty quickly because if we are stuck with this for a year or two it would be genuinely the worst thing ever. I beg please don't let this be a super long and drawn out process where the balance will be broken for like 4 years because the devs just forget about it.
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I hear you on that and understand where concerns like that can come from. While I can't promise you specific timelines, I can promise that I'm here to make sure the team gets a clear idea of what folks like you are feeling. For that, I'd love to dig into the specifics with you: When you say that balance is broken right now, is there something (or somethings) specific that's at the core of this for you?
I understand folks' bigger-picture concerns and worries about diminishing returns impacting build crafting, but if there are specific combos causing you friction or perks you feel have been especially impacted, I'd love to get your POV!
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Well. It's not like something is BROKEN broken, but it's that diminishing returns in it's current state can be a bit sticky I guess. I mean like, some perks would need to be buffed since they don't do something super insane and only really work if you are making a build specified around that thing. I can't say a SPECIFIC perk that is like this at the moment, but I know for a fact that there are loads of perks that will basically become even more useless due to diminishing returns in it's current state, since it's not worth bringing alone when there are better options, so no one will bring them. Really the only perks that need big buffs are those that will be hit hardest from diminishing returns.
From what I understand, diminishing returns wants players to explore builds way more than just using 4 haste perks and going super fast, and instead encourage players to be a bit more creative with their builds. Instead of focusing on having pure haste a player can run STBFL, that one xeno perk that gives haste after you M1 someone, and something like bamboozle, thus making a really good chase build. I like that idea. Sadly currently it pushes a bit too hard and might push players into using the basic meta.
I feel that there are hundreds of survivor perks that need buffs because they are basically useless compared to the best perks, which is honestly pretty sad to me. I want to see these fun perks in matches, but there is no point using them because the Meta perks are 100X better.
Also some buffs to niche killer perks would be really nice to, like human greed. It could be buffed and reworked into a really fun perk.0 -
Yeah, I feel like diminishing returns has kind of killed a lot of perks. I'll only speak for the survivor side, anyone else is welcome to speak for the killer side.
Gen perks like Dustin's and Eleven's, or Thalita's, that add a bit to the gen speed are now complete trash. They were bad to begin with, but now they're useless. Want to pair them with Deja Vu? A big waste of perk slots. A teammate is running Quick Gambit and manages to loop the killer for a minute? Trash value from that perk, if you are already running a gen perk (like Deja Vu).
Wanna do a silly combo like Made for This + Boon: Dark Theory? It's a waste now. No-one Left Behind? You know, that rare perk that no-one runs? Now it's even less good to equip, because if you have another healing perk, it'll be a waste of a perk slot. Wanna spice things up with running Babysitter + Borrowed Time (no-one runs BT anmore)? welp, it'll be a big waste. BT become even more dead.
Alan Wake's perk for more skill checks, or Vee's perk for skill checks have already been mid at best. Imagine if you combo them: it's a waste. And if you thought about running those with Autodidact for fun? Welp, not really worth it anymore.
A huge amount of niche perks got destroyed with this update. I hope that you manage to adjust the system so that we're not at a place where it's only worth running meta perks, because any quirky builds (which often stack values) are now not good enough to warranty the use of perk slots.
If things stay like this, Chaos Shuffle is gonna be a sad story, too.
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Some specific examples I've noticed:
- Stacking luck modifiers is significantly impacted, probably more than anything else. Luck as a whole was very reliant on stacking as most luck increase effects use very small numbers, and you generally needed multiple to get a noticeable benefit.
- Champion of Light + Fixated was a popular combo which lost 10% speed. Although haste stacking in general was an issue in some cases, this particular combo felt rather innocent.
- Some other smaller action speed increases like Boon: Illumination, Better than New, etc. which already weren't that good became worse. I could see both of these reasonably being bumped up.
- I would like to see Leverage revisited at some point given that it was already previously nerfed a while back, presumably (at least in part) because of how well it stacked with Gift of Pain. It currently doesn't feel super worth running on its own compared to other perks without stacking, and given that this stacking impact is now lessened, a slight adjustment here would be nice.
- Help Wanted could use some attention. The effect is not really good for its requirement (Machine Learning is way better) and overall was weaker and less consistent than STBFL. The only real use case was stacking with STBFL, and that's diminished now.
- Other niche combos that weren't strong enough to warrant nerfs like stacking generator noise reduction effects (ie. Technician + Teamwork Soft Spoken). Technician already needed an overhaul anyway, but still wanted to bring it up.
I'm sure there are more things I could list here too, this is just what I've seen/thought about so far
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Results of DR:
→ Fun and variety builds are dead, guess they just want everyone to run corrupt, pain res, dms and 4th slowdown
→ Not fixing how imbalance and busted the survivor side is, literally all meta combos untouched, same on killer side
So all this just made less fun options.
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The immediate hit that came to my mind was a silly little self heal build.
Botany, Flow State, Desperate Measures & Resilience + a MedKit. The idea was mainly to heal myself super fast of course only limited to a couple times at most with the MedKit. It's a little like yikes that injured player already healed themselves but again it only happens twice. Literally every perk after Botany now though is hit by diminishing returns which to some degree is fair because it brings the build in line a bit more, however what hurts the most is resilience in this current situation, it only adds 9% to this build. But not with diminishing returns. Again to a degree it's fair that it shouldn't be too broken, the problem is though it was just a silly self heal build. "Self heal go brrr kinda thing y'know LOL" it's now not a build I would run at all because after Botany & whatever would be affected next between Flow State or Desperate Measures the build is basically redundant. Which of course then just leads to playing more meta perks.
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I just wanted to add I genuinely think Survivor got hit harder with diminishing returns. Gen regression isn't affected by diminishing returns as the meta is all different regression variations so it doesn't get hurt. Other than haste, what effects do killers stack consistently? Survivors are hit in the haste department too, gen speed, heal speed. So it overall is encouraging killers to basically play as they have been which I'm sure for them is still boring because the idea that they could relax & play something more silly buildcrafty was a possibility but instead survivors are now even those that otherwise would not are running the hard meta. DS + exhaustion on all of them, every game. Hyperfocus Stakeout Every game, because again it's unaffected by diminishing returns.
It limits what's worth using across the board yes but a lot more on survivor side which will then inevitably suck for killers going against the same meta builds on the whole team every single game. Which again I've already said but will make them play to combat all the time, because in some ways they HAVE TO.
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They really need to revert this change, there is basically no reason to run silly goofy builds anymore instead of meta perks. Combos like champion of light + fixated are gutted for no reason even though they weren't op to begin with.
If they thought a perk would be problematic when stacked with others, they could simply add in the description "This perk does not stack with others of the same effect." The only perk that I think currently would need that is We're Gonna Live Forever, just because being able to pick people up in 8 seconds with endurance is dumb. Having a sweeping rule that basically tells you not to run two of the same type of perk is dumb, even more so that this affects killer powers like Clown and Skull Merchant.
If this is something that has to stay, I hope at least they start adding more types of effects to let perk combos work again. For example Fixated could buff your base walking speed instead of giving haste so it can work with Champion of Light again
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The issue is that you are also ignoring perks that are not affected by the DR system but need a nerf/change ages ago; Resurgence, Shoulder the Burden, Sprint Burst, Lithe, DH, Vigil, Deliverance, fat toolboxes, and other perks are either unhealthy or way too strong for how they are but the DR system cannot balance them, they need a direct balance update.
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Diminishing Returns is just poorly implemented not only does this not affect meta perk extremes it only hurts already weak perks combos, Also not including add-ons was a mistake since specific stacking builds with Killers with busted add-ons in tandem with perks fails this whole meaning of adding diminishing returns
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I didn’t expect him to. He never responds to me. But I've also been pretty critical of some internal forum structural elements in the past.
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Funny how they say PTBs are for feedback but then ignore all the feedback that said this was going to be a bad change.. all DR has done is push players towards using meta perks and nuked the fun or gimmicky builds, which makes no sense.
Even if perks are buffed, (and who knows how long that will take) people will still just pick the strongest one in whatever category because theres no point in stacking them.
Not everyone wants to run generalist builds, a lot of players found fun in making interesting combos, this update feels like BHVR is trying to homogenise playstyles and push everyone into playing the same way.
If they want to make new strong perks but can't because of the potential of OP stacking with existing perks, why not just make it so the new perks can't stack? Instead we get this change no one was asking for that kills off build variety, all for a "maybe" it'll be better in the long term. If the affected perks are buffed to where you could get the old values back then there is no point to this change, and if they aren't, then its a net nerf across the board.
Revert this update ASAP, ruining my fun builds is only making me not want to play the game.6 -
In my opinion, DR (Diminishing Returns) isn't good for the current state of perks. It kills a lot of fun combos (a lot of them not even necessarily strong), and further pushes people into running meta. Either DR needs to be removed, OR a LOT of perks need to be buffed significantly.
list of survivor perks that are mid or trash, and are basically worthless with DR in place:
- Bardic Inspiration - on its own, it's a bad perk. A lot of times you won't roll a good number, and even if you do, what does a bit more progress on great skill check mean? Not a lot. It was only worth running it with Hyperfocus, and now that's gone
- Better than New - bad perk. and now if a teammate you heal is already running a perk that affects healing/cleansing/etc., this will be very insignificant
- Blood Pact - already niche and very conditional in the sense that it's tied to the obsession, and you staying within close range within them (which is usually not efficient gameplay).
- Boon: Dark Theory: already very niche and situational, and now any fun combos are dead
- Borrowed Time: since the basic off-hook endurance (and especially since the 10→15 seconds of endurance buff), "nobody" has been running this perk. It's not worth it. Basically only fun came with pairing it with something like Babysitter. This perk is not bad. On the side note, in my opinion, basekit off-hook endurance should be reverted to 10 seconds, ast least in endgame.
- Botany Knowledge - best used with combos, now it's not worth it. 1 particular combo, that was already decent at best (self-care + botany) is now demolished (unless DR doesn't apply to this combo, correct me if I'm wrong)
- Champion of Light - fun combo-ing with Fixated is now less good. It needed skill to use, and I haven't noticed many people running it. But in proper hands, it was a good and fun combo to use.
- Chemical Trap - sort of niche, and now fun combo-ing with Champion of Light is making it not worth running
- Deadline - already a bad perk, which was mostly fun being used with other mid perks: well, now it's Dead
(…)
Actually, I'm gonna leave it here, or I'll be writing for at least an hour. I think that DR idea was nice, but the effect it has on game sucks so bad. Most of the perks are not worth running at all. Another potential solution to this problem is to reduce the total perk count by at least 50%, which would also mean you start making less perks per newly released character (best 1 perk per character).
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you guys killed build variety with this change we didn’t want this ? Like bro a lot of people said this wasn’t a good change
Remember when you guys tried to stop haste stacking ?
NO ONE WANTED IT
So thank you for making more perks useless and niche builds useless and pushing everyone towards the meta we have always had
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My one more question is why does our feedback not get listened to on ptb I saw the diminishing returns feedback majority said no so why do it ?
so I can run dh ds res ub which I don’t think these perks need nerfs so please don’t get any ideas but I won’t get punished for that insanely good buildBut if I wanna run a medic build I get punished more than the player who’s running one of the best builds in the game
Do you kinda realise how this is like a stupid change now ?
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That is the thing I dont understand. You already have data, you are just not using it.
You have the Data that Perk A and Perk B combined are a bit too good, which is the reason why you introduce Diminishing Returns. But you can easily check Perk A and Perk B separately by looking how they perform when only Perk A OR Perk B is used, but not together.
Then you will most likely notice two things:
- Their Pickrate is very low and/or
- Alone they dont really do much
Which then would mean that you can already buff them. Because as I said, you have the Data. But in general, since development is usually done in snail pace (except if there are complaints, then you can suddenly revert or change things without waiting for actual data or feedback, because then suddenly the loud people are enough…), we are probably looking at a ton of destroyed builds for many years before some garbage Perks get a slight Buff.
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@ThatRyanB One thing I don‘t understand is, why did you introduce so many perks that do the same thing slightly differently when you don‘t want us to stack them?
Let’s take healing perks as example. We have so many of them while we only realistically need 3 good ones. What‘s the point of all the other ones when we can‘t stack them? Players will simply choose the strongest ones and ignore the rest.
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they really don’t play their game unfortunately like they indirectly nerfed self care again HAHAHAHA I feel like if they played more of dbd they wouldn’t make such nuclear awful changes like this or like that time they made all the pallets useless or the time there was 1000s of pallets
You can not tell me the people who make these changes play this game on the regular
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Have you guys tried to see it in a different light?
BHVR has now more room to balance stuff and doesn´t need to tiptoeing around every potential perk, ability and hope that the one youtube doesn´t find abusable stuff.
I exactly remember so many players hating on speed Clown/speed selfcare
The only thing BHVR could do to attack these problems was to nerf "EVERYTHING" for everyone which leads to dying perks like selfcare.
If selfcare doesn´t get additional healing speed by medkits, perks and other stuff the perk can be rebalanced back to the game.
These are just some examples because I know well that there are many perks which are 0 problem on their own but become kinda dumb when paired with others.
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The problem with perk balance for me right now is that individual perks are far too strong at what they do by themselves. You can have a strong healing perk, a strong anti tunnel perk, a strong anti slug perk, and a strong exhaustion perk all in the same build and there is basically no opportunity cost by doing so. It can feel like there isn't a correct play when playing against survivors with those builds because they literally have something for every situation, whereas the builds that are getting nerfed with diminishing returns usually were flawed because they are specializing in only one or two of those areas. As for killer perks, gen regression isn't hit by diminishing returns but all the B/C tier build choices like haste or negative gen speed perks like dying light + gift of pain are.
I feel like the goal where underwhelming perks get buffed up to the same level as others is just going to kill build diversity in the future, like sure those perks might be good now but they still will be paired with 3 other strong perks, making everyone have generalist builds. Maybe diminishing returns could be 100/100/40/20 instead of 100/50/25/12.5 so that taking two perks can still be a good combo but you can't get the ridiculous highs that having 4 of the same perks would have.
Here are builds that have been significantly impacted that has been bothering me since the update: Champion of Light + Fixated, Dying Light + Pentimento + Gift of Pain, Bamboozle + Superior Anatomy + Dark Arrogance, Any haste perk + killers with inbuilt haste (skull merchant and clown), Babysitter + BT (15% haste instead of 20%), Desperate Measures + Flow state (unhook speed stacking).
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I have to say I'm a little bit baffled at the claims Diminishing Returns somehow kills build variety, specifically when people say that build crafting in general is now dead.
Even if the system hard removed stacking effects from the game, there are tons of synergies which aren't related to different percentages of the same modifier. Like, to use an example of a survivor who wants to run a "medic" build, you might see them use something like the following:
Botany Knowledge | We'll Make It | Empathic Connection | Desperate Measures
Now, this certainly counts as a "medic" build, and it's one that'd be pretty firmly weakened by the DR system too… but not only is it not the only way you'd craft a "medic" build, I'd argue it's also the least interesting way of crafting that kind of build.
Bearing in mind that weakening stacking isn't the same as removing stacking, consider instead a build like the following:Botany Knowledge (or other heal speed increase of choice) | Empathy | Second Wind/Clean Break | Flow State
What we have here is a build that is affected by Diminishing Returns, because Flow State's heal speed will be cut down per token, but that makes up for slower speed with utility. You can keep track of who needs healing, get them healthy faster with the speed bonus you do have, set up your own heal later on down the line, and as a nice little bonus you get unhook speed and, if you need it, totem cleansing speed on top of it.
Hell, say you don't want to be affected by Diminishing Returns at all, even if it isn't that detrimental to your build. Just swap out Flow State for something that gives a different kind of medic-themed bonus; run Kindred or Babysitter for unhook protection, run WGLF or Buckle Up for anti-slug, run Bite the Bullet or A Place For Us to get stealth and reset in peace, run Self Preservation to skulk around without drawing the killer's attention so your altruism is harder to punish…This is just one build type for one of the two roles, and I'm not even suggesting any actively weak perks for to boot, this isn't sacrificing strength for the sake of variety. Build crafting involves way more than just stacking two or more of the exact same percentage-based effect for high speeds, and I really chafe against the idea that certain combos being made weaker means build variety is dead.
That's not to say no combos are being harmed unduly, I think the ongoing process of evaluating what's affected unfairly and how to address it is important, but the DR system isn't nearly as far-reaching as people are acting like it is.
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I agree 100% that this is a first-step maneuver. That being said the problem I am seeing repeating has very much to do with poor implementation, lack of BHVR recieving the PTB feedback that was given, and over-all frustration with the TAT on the results.
If the DR changes ruin DBD for a month but make it sizably better the next month I think most people would agree that's acceptable. However if the DR changes ruin DBD for years at the vague promise of things getting better one day, no one finds that acceptable - and that feels closer to player expectation right now or so it seems.
The turn around time and development time from BHVR, as well as the speed at which they have historically responded to issues implies to the playerbase that DR is going to gut alot of things and make the game lesser, and it will be lesser for years to come.
Personally I remember people complaining perk variety and build variety were dead before DR, so I'm watching this entire affair with some measure of surprise and popcorn. Killer meta is entirely unaffected. Survivor meta is entirely unaffected. Survs hate killers stacking gen slow down. Killers hate surv's stacking gen speed. They both got their wishes, or rather are starting to, so watching the kick-back is admittedly a bit schadenfreudian.0 -
I think diminishing returns is a good long-term change that will get better with time.
The only thing I disagree with is that killer powers are not exempt, haste on clown is gutted, no idea how singularity is affected.
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What I don't get is why, since BHVR historically likes simple solutions, they didn't simply slap a hard cap on certain effects (there was already a cap on healing iirc) to prevent stacking beyond a certain threshold (which could have been tweaked upon feedback afterwards).
This would have achieved exactly what BHVR claimed they want to accomplish (making future perks easier to balance/design & making weak perks stronger later on due to limited potential) without killing niche/fun and non-meta builds.
Like, Botany + Empathic Connection + We'll Make It + WGLF was not a bad build per-say, it was good at its job, but you had nothing else. And now it's pretty "meh" at its job compared to before.
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I can't find that original quote but… I AM TOTALLY NOT BHVR ALT TRUST.
In all actually, HUUHH?H????? Why would I be an alt?0 -
I mean. It's not really that bad for killers, but I'd imagine it's kind of bad for survivors.
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I didn't think you were lol
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