A hypothetical question regarding anti-slug
Assuming that an anti-slug was ever implemented into dbd via basekit unbreakable at maybe half bleed out, to not ignore the complaints about gens going to fast, what if the trade off was a basekit Deadlock for killers. After every gen, no conditions have to be met the entity just blocked the next most progressed gen for idk 20-30 seconds AND let it either stack with the current perk to either get more value out of a gen being completed OR replace current Deadlock with something along the lines of vigil for killers where perks that effect the entity blocking something extend that time by a percentage?
Slugging is not the answer to the problems of this game but slug matches are becoming more and more common and while I enjoy running no mither not everyone does. Nor does everyone like being bullied by a swf I know. But if the gens are "going too fast" because of survivor efficiency maybe the answer instead could be that the entity slows down the progress?
Looking at the game THEMATICALLY the killer doesnt decide who lives and dies freely, they are supposed to get hooks to feed the entity pain and suffering, that is why at the end of a 4 slug match it would say something like "The entity hungers" A killer that refused to hook and just killed the survivors becomes the entities personal plaything at the end of a trial not the survivors.
Now I know alot of people just dont care about the lore in a asym pvp game, but would this be an acceptable trade off? A permanant entity blocker after every completed gen, for a 1 free time pick up if a survivor has been on the ground a TOTAL of two minutes (not a cumulative amount rather but getting hit then left on the ground with no pick up in sight), between gens this could add a whole hypothetical 2 1/2 extra minutes to search and destroy overall in a game where that much extra time Im sure could help.
This is just a thought from a frustrated survivor main whose wife uninstalled the game AGAIN (thanks jerks) but who also enjoys killer, I dont have alot of the same problems as other killers but I also played killer since 2019 to today.
Im trying to be as fair with this and I dont personally see a basekit Deadlock as something bad for the game, if anything I hear you matches should be longer, there should really just be either more Objectives or a secondary objective the killer could fulfill to not feel so unrewarded. Honestly I dont think the end game mori rewards killers enough. Its just a video to end the game on and its not really rewarding.
Other survivors what would you think of this? Would you see something like this as a fair acceptable trade off and hopeful end to slugging? Or is this just a bad idea?
Answers
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I’ve said this in lots of other threads already, but slugging is only a problem in the survivors don’t pick up their teammates. In fact, survivors should be glad killers are slugging and not hooking, because hooks mean that you’re closer to dying. I’ve only had a handful of matches ever where the whole team was slugged, and I was far angrier at my teammates for not picking anyone up than I was at the killer for slugging. If my teammates are actually picking people up, the slugging killer very rarely wins the match in my experience.
For the downvoters who disagree - go play some matches as killer, don’t hook anyone, and see how it goes. You might be surprised how ineffective it is.
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you say the same thing in most other similar posts but your responses are very hollow and feels like a bit also it feels a little disingenuous to say the solution is to heal and pick eachother up when the 2 key perks to the "slugging meta" build rely on survivors healing within the killers terror radius. It feels like disinformation to steer from a current issue.
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I don't see this as a fair trade-off at all. There are two main types of slugging that I see. One is what I'd consider normal in typical gameplay. Chasing, hooking, gens getting done, and the killer gets into a situation where multiple people are injured or out of position in the same area and multiple downs are easy. I do this as killer, particularly if I'm desperate and there's only one gen left. I don't think this is an issue. The other kind is the trend that's going on recently, with killers bringing slug builds and going solely for slugs without ever hooking anyone until they're all down. This I think needs to be stopped.
Your solution gives killers who don't slug or who slug occasionally a big buff while not really doing much about the other version. They'll just slug you again when you stand up, and get another read on your teammates with Infectious when they do. I'm not sure why I, as someone who rarely slugs, I should get such a buff.
But if the gens are "going too fast" because of survivor efficiency maybe the answer instead could be that the entity slows down the progress?
The reasons being given for why this is happening aren't gen speeds. It's that it's easier and faster, and that perks that activate upon hooking don't get to be useful.
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Changes for game health and player experience are not beholden to equivalent exchange. On top of that, you're starting from the premise that as few killers should be affected by anything designed to mitigate slugging, and vice versa, as few survivors benefit from it as possible, only the most egregious examples, while simultaneously, want to giga buff every single killer in every single game, from Nurse to Trapper, whether they're slugging, tunnelling, camping, or even AFK. This is not "trying to be fair." This is a figleaf.
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The only reason for the equivalent exchange is that either community feels snubbed by any change in one way, base kit unbreakable activating only if a player has been slugged 2 full minutes (no pick up but pure slug) seems fair enough if killers get something in retrun, as you said it wouldnt effect killers that dont slug or dont slug very often, thats why I say being on the ground for 2 minutes and not just a collective 2 minutes having been downed and picked up multiple times. As for the base kit deadlock while it would buff killers at the highest levels it would help killers at the lowest to probably the same degree. At most survivors are pushed off a gen with the most progress to go work on another gen, it does waste time but it does keep the match moving and not stalemating out so the killer rank or choice is kinda irrelevant. nothing about them changes fundamentally they would all play the same. Just with maybe 2 1/2 minutes of breathing space inbetween gens. But those are just thoughts and ideas.
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I'm not interested in equivalent exchange as a means to get things done. The devs need to have a spine and not cave to hyperbolic outcry.
Nor do I even think that this idea is equivalent. Two minutes on the ground is a long time. This would help people about as often as you get to kobe off-hook with no perks or offerings. Meanwhile, basekit Deadlock would benefit every single killer player.
It's not that gens get done too fast, it's that killers get outplayed or overcommit, then proceed to blame the game. And a mass slowdown is too strong on some killers. That's real nice for Trapper but do we really need to give it to Ghoul? If killers need work, they need to be addressed individually.
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In fact, survivors should be glad killers are slugging and not hooking, because hooks mean that you’re closer to dying.
If you've been on the forums for any length of time, you would see that most Survivors would prefer dying quickly and moving on to the next match over lying on the ground for four minutes unable to do anything. That's part of why the Abandon feature was added (and the scenario where you get knocked down several times that allows you to abandon).
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It’s not disingenuous - it’s from my own experience playing survivor in the game. If someone is slugged, you go pick them up, just like you would go rescue someone on hook. If the killer is camping the slugged survivor, that means there are three survivors free to do gens uninterrupted. It’s not that difficult.
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If someone is lying on the ground for 4 minutes, then either 1) the killer is camping the downed survivor, and the rest of the team is free to get most of, if not all, the gens done; or 2) if the killer is not camping the downed survivor, then where are the teammates and why are they not picking up downed survivor?
I’ll keep saying it over and over - for those who disagree or don’t like what I’m saying, go try playing killer yourself, don’t hook anyone that you down, and see how it goes. If you can show me that you can consistently win matches playing this way, I will happily change my opinion.-2 -
No offense, but basekit Deadlock would probably be the worst possible basekit slowdown you could give killers. It wouldn't be very healthy because other unfun killer strategies could be strengthened, but also, as someone who never runs Deadlock, it would really bother me because Deadlock is very anti synergestic with other killer slowdowns.
Got a down and ready to hook the next survivor on to a Scourge Hook? Oop Deadlock triggered blocking the generator you needed to blow up and it instead does nothing or explodes the gen with little progress.
Got a down that would normally trigger Eruption? Too bad, it won't trigger because Deadlock hit the gen I applied it to.
Got a generator with lots of progress that no survivors are working on while running Ruin? Oh man, Deadlock triggered on it so now it's not regressing at all.
Got a down and ready to go kick a nearby generator with lots of progress with my Pop? Crap, Deadlock triggered on it so now I either have to stand there waiting it out, or forgo Popping it.
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If the teammates aren't picking up the downed Survivor, they're either on a gen or getting chased (and downed) by the Killer. Meanwhile, third teammate can go pick up the downed Survivor, but then they'd have to go pick up the other teammate who was just downed. Rinse and repeat for a dragged out match where Survivors can't do gens because they're too busy picking each other up, and they inevitably bleed out. That's the kind of behavior that needs to be addressed.
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@cogsturning already covered the main points.
This wouldn't be anywhere close to an equivalent exchange. For comparison, take the 3 gen change - the 8 kick limit is very rare outside one dedicated strategy they were trying to get rid of, changing it had no impact on the vast majority of matches. In return killers got an end to gen tapping and a 2.5% increase to their kicks, smaller changes but ones that were present every match.
Given the extreme nature of the anti-slug timers that have been proposed, these rarely would be impacting the match.
Now I'd like to point to a similar survivor strategy, something rare that was unhealthy for the game, but the ones I can think of have already been patched out of the game (without any type of compensation that I can recall). Unhookable builds for example, gone. And that's fine, if something is unhealthy it should not need an exchange, it should just be fixed.
If we were talking about substantially faster stands up from being slugged, then maybe that would be equivalent to base kit Deadlock, but 120 slug timers isn't even close.
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In your scenario, there’s always at least one free survivor who should always be on a gen. If the killer is getting downs so quickly that none of the other survivors can continuously be making gen progress, well that’s a problem with the survivor team’s ability to last more than a few seconds in chase.
Play killer and try the “slugging only” strategy yourself for 10 matches. Come back and let us know what the results were. If it’s a highly effective strategy to consistently win matches, I will happily change my opinion.-1 -
Play killer and try the “slugging only” strategy yourself for 10 matches. Come back and let us know what the results were. If it’s a highly effective strategy to consistently win matches, I will happily change my opinion.
Even if I did that, you'll just say that the Survivors played badly. Kind of like what you're saying now. So I doubt it would change your opinion.
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I feel this is kind of an intentionally reductive take on slugging.
At its simplest, sure, slugging only works if survivors don’t pick each other up. But that’s like saying SWF is only strong if killers can’t down them. Technically true, but it ignores all the layers that actually make those things difficult in practice.A player that’s building around heavy slugging don’t just randomly leave people on the ground. They usually bring specific killers, perks, and strategies designed to make pickups difficult or unsafe while slugging is really strong on them. Meanwhile, survivors often have to preemptively dedicate perk slots to anti-slug just to combat it, and those tools come with restrictions and cooldowns, while slugging itself is completely base-kit. Someone slugging with twins, or Billy is going to have a different time than someone slugging with pig or trapper and I feel it’s disingenuous not to acknowledge that.
And this isn’t just low MMR pubstomp stuff either. Highlevel killers maintaining winstreaks slug when matches start slipping, because it’s an extremely effective form of pressure even against strong teams. Just saw this in a recent compilation by our otter friend who was trying ti maintain his kill streak and secured it by slugging the team.
You can absolutely argue some teams misplay against slugging, they do! But then that logic has to stay consistent elsewhere too. “Just pick up” is no different from saying “just down the SWF.”
BHVR has already acknowledged there’s a difference between strategic slugging and abusive slugging. They experimented with basekit anti-slug systems before, and in 2v8 they had to add anti-slug measures after the mode became heavily slug-focused (for no justifiable reason) the first go round.
So regardless of where people personally rank its strength, if slugging keeps becoming more normalized and oppressive, history suggests BHVR will probably step in eventually like they have with other unhealthy gameplay patterns.
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Yes, some survivors will play badly, but some won’t. That’s why you need a large enough data set. Try it for 10-20 matches and let me know how it goes.
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