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Killer Shouldn't Be Able To Close Hatch
Comments
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I realize I didn't address if there are two survivors doing the stand-off, so sorry, but iron maiden exists now to help with locker hoppers.
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That and one survivor will either attempt a gen or try to get the other killed. I've seen it plenty of times. Unfortunately, the one actually trying to do gens will probably be the one to die.
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Hatch is typically seen as an easy out. Currently, you could know where the hatch is and wait at the door furthest away, do gens and pressure the door furthest away from hatch, stealth over to the door and wait for killer to pass or sneak by, use a key to escape. EDIT: You can use hatch too. Forgot to mention
Killer can currently close the hatch to look at the doors. If this changes, the remaining survivor would have more than enough chance. If the killer leaves hatch and hits them, they can get a sprint burst back to it. If survivor goes to pressure the door, the killer would either need to leave the hatch to check doors and risk the survivor sneaking past and hopping in, or hope the survivor is waiting with them.
Mind you, killer is supposed to be the power role. You're not supposed to want to be alone in a 1 v 1 with them as survivor. If everyone dies well before you have a realistic chance of escaping, it should be really hard to escape.
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@fluffybunny The fact that they just killed the 3 other survivors and now have a chance at the 4th shows that they are, indeed, the power role and in no way is the survivor guaranteed the escape just because the hatch can't be closed. And it's not "more than enough chance" but it is more and that's fair in comparison to what it is now. Killers still caught and killed the last survivor in the past before End Game and complained about the stand-off which the timer eliminates.
And who says you're not supposed to be alone in a 1v1. That's the definition of 1v1 and some survivors worked their A off to get there. Yes, I'm aware some probably didn't but those won't pip. And it would still be very hard to escape with the hatch remaining open.
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It's fine that the killer can close the hatch survivors get so many chances to escape as it is
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They get so many chances because it's so hard for them to escape. Now as last survivor its been made nearly impossible in some situations.
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Maps and Keys. Start using them and try to adapt to the new changes instead of calling for a rework when it hasn't even been a month.
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No, you said killers shouldn't be able to close hatch. You dont need a key to open it, it opens automatically for the last survivor. They removed the gen requirement so now it spawns regardless. That's the point. You dont find it first you lose.
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You dont even need to.
If you find hatch first, you win.
If you arrive at a gate, the killer cannot come to within 20 seconds, you win.
It's pretty much random.
It's not a guaranteed surv like the old system, which was #########.
You have enough second chances as survivor if you messed up hard.
In my opinion only thing needs a change are the gate spawns.
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I only suicide if I think the person deserves hatch or if it's a friend. Like if we're both trying and I know we are, it's fine if I happen to be caught first. It was usually between survivor and killer, though. If another survivor was camping the hatch or hiding and waiting for the other to die, it would often lead to games going on far too long 'cause everyone's hiding and waiting for the other to die.
@liquidlight I was speaking from the perspective of a survivor. If someone's camping hatch, they need to earn it.
I realize I didn't address if there are two survivors doing the stand-off, so sorry, but iron maiden exists now to help with locker hoppers.
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@ReikoMori So... what exactly is going to be different next month about End Game? lol And I'm not the only one calling for a rework. Tons of people don't like the way it is. There are dozens of posts.
@KingB I did say that, yes, and I'm aware you don't need a key. I don't even know why you feel the need to say that because I never said anything remotely like you need a key to open it (unless its been shut). I know and I think everyone whose played one game knows that it opens automatically. And I don't think it should be auto-lose because you didn't find it first... for killer or survivor. Hence why I said let killers be able to pull people out of hatch and keep the timer AND make it so it can't be shut. That way both sides have a fair chance at the win.
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I would like to point out that if a Killer is playing better than the survivors he will almost ALWAYS have to deal with the hatch in one way or another.
However if the Survivors are playing better than the Killer then they will almost NEVER have to deal with the hatch (barring Key plays).
What that means is that in order to be fair the Killer needs to have a consistent method of dealing with the hatch. Sitting on it for 2 minutes for the EGC to kill the Survivor simply isn't consistent enough and Patrolling the gates with an open hatch is even less consistent. The only time a Survivor should be escaping in a 1v1 is either A: It was already endgame or B: The Survivor is an outlier on the team.
In case A the gates were opened while there was 2 players. Now there are 1 and he's probably about to escape so whatever.
In case B however we don't want a Survivor to just get lucky and win. THAT'S why the Killer has an advantage in the 1v1, otherwise a Killer would need to be better than the individual survivors rather than just the collective. While the Survivors aren't exactly a team per say (since they win individually) the Killer is still facing all 4 of them at once.
The solution is to make it really hard for the last survivor outside of endgame situations. If they win anyways then they have earned it. If not then they weren't an outlier after all oh well. Meanwhile the Killer already had to prove himself by not letting it get to endgame before the hatch became relevant.
Being the last survivor is not enough to deserve an escape. There will always be a last survivor. I'd argue finding the hatch isn't enough either since that's basically just RNG. Getting the doors open on your own however is not an impossible task, yet it also isn't a random or mindless one. And again the Killer has already put a lot of work in to get to this moment, if he doesn't have a massive advantage that would make Kills meaningless in regards to preventing a survivor from winning.
Winning with the hatch scenario as a Survivor should ALWAYS be harder than winning normally. Otherwise it would be in your best interest to get the other Survivors killed in order to make it spawn. No one want's that. Just imagine someone with diversion and bond going around throwing pebbles at the other Survivors to give them away.
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The hatch closing mechanic, specifically, with the exit gates powering was proven to be a failed mechanic in the PTB a year ago. It was designated an unfit situation.
Why the Endgame collapse suddenly decided that this mechanic was to be brought back with supposed justice is beyond me. The EGC itself is a good idea, but the way its triggered when 1 last survivor remains just isn't with the way EGC works.
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It should be hard to get the escape but not impossible. In many situations after the hatch is closed it becomes impossible due to killer speed and proximity of the gates. A survivor could have earned the escape but is screwed out of potential victory because they literally have no way to get the gates open before being discovered or time runs out.
EDIT: Before anyone says it.. I'm not saying it's always like this but in far too many cases it is. Hence why people are even complaining about gates.
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@liquidlight you said my post assumes someone is carrying a key. If the killer cannot shut the hatch, it will be a free escape. Lets say the egc starts as soon as one survivor is left. The killer doesnt have constant aura reading (generally speaking ofc). The survivor has all the power. The killer has no clue whether the survivor is camping the hatch or going for a door. Meaning guess wrong or face a semi-competent survivor and they escape.
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The fact that they killed 3 survivors and the last is getting a place where they can just jump into is weakening that "power" role and in most cases, people have to sweat to get everyone as killer. They have to have good add-ons and perks and be decent at looping and so on as well. It is more than enough of a chance because it's left open. Survivors can just quickly jump in. If they leave for a nearby door and the killer follows them, they can just SB back.
Killers still caught and killed the last survivor in the past before End Game and complained about the stand-off which the timer eliminates.
A lot of times they would slug for it and mind you, before they could only open the doors if they got all 5 gens. Meaning they were already close to winning. Otherwise they had to wait it out to see who got bored first.
And who says you're not supposed to be alone in a 1v1.
This isn't a 1v1 game. This is a 1v4 game with 1 power role and 4 weaker roles. Meaning you don't want to be alone against the power role. I'm not sure how this is hard to understand. Most survivors who work to get there typically end up dying doing so 'cause there's always someone who camps the hatch instead of do the gens. I've had games where I ended up being the last one out, but we got all the gens done and someone got downed. I hid and tried to wave them over and went to hide when I realized the killer was following them. They got picked up and placed on the hook and I waited for the killer to go find the hatch. I was able to open the door and make it out in time, but just barely. It shouldn't be an easy feat to get out when you're the last one, especially when it's just you and the killer and the doors aren't even powered yet.
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The survivor does not have all the power just because they're last. The survivor can be just as clueless about the hatch or whether the killer has found it or not, too. Your example proves nothing. At best if the survivor knows where the hatch is and camps it and the killer doesn't then they escape but if you flip it the killer can also camp the hatch. Most survivors will always go for the hatch, especially if there are gens left (entity should not block gens in scenario where hatch can't be closed). If a gen must be finished and the survivor tries to do it and completes it the killer knows where they are. If hatch opens then it'll be like before End Game but the timer remains which eliminated the one thing everyone hated... stand-offs.
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@liquidlight I cant argue this further. The forums are so terrible for mobile users.
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It doesn't fix the solution you're pretty much just have survivors camping hatch until the killer leaves
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I think you forget that they remove the ability to grab a survivor out of the hatch hence why it would be a free escape
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Right. It was survivor sided in a sickening way for like over 2 years. It's finally balanced. Or possibly slightly killer sided.
Finally
Finally
The hatch changes are welcomed, and pretty fair.
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@Aari_Piggy66 Liquid's idea is to reintroduce the hatch grab and allow it to remain open, but activate the end game collapse after the third person's death (so you'll be able to open the gates, too).
EDIT: Actually from the sounds of it they want to reset it to how it was before, but add an collapse end game timer? I think that's actually be nearly impossible to survive depending on how many gens are left and so on if the timer's the same.
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Dozens of people are making posts without taking time to adapt and learn how to play within the new setup of endgame. Change is always met with resistance and the only cure for that is taking time to see if it possible to adapt to said changes. Taking time also allows the devs to collect backend information, raw statistical data, and work from there rather than just knee jerk reactions. In the meantime, survivors have maps and keys to locate the hatch when it spawns. A lot of players are complaining the killer finds the hatch too fast because they travel the map more and have more awareness. That isn't a reason to change the game, that means players have been actively playing the game without using their own ability to observe the surrounding and take note of key places and things. You can't believe it is ok to change something simply because one side has neglected proper skill building. Especially, when they have items that can be used to just pinpoint the areas and items of interest. Killers don't have a hatch tracking outside of their own ears, eyes, and mind. So if killers are finding it first most of the time that means they are actively using their skill to find it. Survivors should be expected to put forth at least the same level of effort if they want the hatch that badly.
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All this would do is have the killer follow the survivors for 3 mins until the survivors has to force jump Into the hatch to be grabbed. This solves nothing.
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I have a video to share when I can figure out how to do it.
Here's the link to the video: https://youtu.be/JYW7xMyqHok
I removed it to block names because I don't want anyone being hated on. Also, I was told to adapt and asked how I should have adapted in this situation.
Post edited by liquidlight on0 -
I had 2 games where I could find hatch faster then a killer and more then 20, where a killer closed the hatch. More then In many games it was inpossible to open the gate even if I camped the gate.
Onece the Trapper closed the hatch and trapepd the switch, so I tried to open the gate and was cought in the trap.
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@liquidlight by getting off the gen faster. If you had started heading for the gate after the 3rd down or even immediately after the 2nd DC then you would have gotten the gate open in time.
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Hell you also lingered on the gen for a few seconds even after the 3rd DC. Notice how you were only a second off from getting the gate open. Every second you lingered was a second that would have let you win.
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Also a game where 3 Survivors DC is a terrible game to use as a reference.
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Then enjoy hatch standoffs 2.0
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What if from now on the last survivor just focussed on camping an exit gate switch and ignored the hatch? And then as soon as the hatch closes, they insta open the exit? 😱
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Wow. You guys will make an excuse for everything. I didn't linger on the gen (I'll re-upload the vid when I edit the names out because I realize it showed them at the end) and the hatch closed when I was on my way to a gate (I wasn't sure which to go to because I didn't know where the killer/hatch was) and I went straight to it the moment End Game started. I had no chance because the killer was too fast and could go from one gate to the next easily because they were close together. It was an impossible escape.
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And it doesn't matter if the other players DC'd. This is about 1v1, the last survivor, so them DCing changes nothing.
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Hindsight is 50/50. I didn't watch the video, but I can understand how gates being near to each other can put you in a no-win scenario.
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Anyway, here's the video again since I did remove it from above. Don't mention the DC's... they don't matter because this is about last survivor and standing no chance in this situation. There was no time to go to the other gate. And saying I was only a second off from getting the gate open is bogus. I played the best I could in the moment to survive. In retrospect you can tear anything apart. In the moment, it's a different story.
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Fortunately you have more chance to escape with the EGC. In your video, if it were the old version of the game, the hatch would never have spawned due to no gens being done and it would have been a longer than 2-4 minute game of cat and mouse..
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You are obviously a salty survivor who is upset that you dont get you free escapes anymore
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It's true in retrospect you can tear anything apart, but part of growth is acknowledging when you did something incorrectly or could have done something better. The scenario isn't a good one, but those kinds are hopefully far and few between. You didn't even get a chance to look around before everyone DCed and the killer wasn't having any mercy at all.
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We got rid of hatch stand offs, and you're upset about it. Ridiculous.
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Look. If this is really such an issue then there are other solutions that make it easier but still Killer sided. Mostly involving making the gates easier to open. The important thing of course being to make sure that it doesn't end up effecting the 4v1 situation too much. Some examples are:
- Base gate opening time is now 25 seconds but each dead survivor reduces the time by 5 seconds. Pros: Has a gradual rather than sudden effect, allows for more pressure in the 4v1 situation Cons: Punishes survivors for doing well and rewards survivors for sacrificing each other.
- The gate takes 15 seconds for the last survivor only to open. Pros: Mitigates the gate issue without effecting non 1v1 situations. Cons: Is a sudden and arbitrary feeling solution, these types of solutions have a poor effect on the learning curve. Increasing the EGC timer in this situation has the same pros and cons
- Having a special basement chest that always contains a Special Key that can open the hatch but can't exit the trial (in addition to the normal basement chest, they can be color coded). Pros: Adds a secondary objective (but not in the game solvey way people need unfortunately), allows for preparation to solve the EGC, makes the basement more interesting. Cons: Effects non-EGC situations (Unless we make it only work during the EGC), can screw over the last survivor if someone else gets the key first and then dies, doesn't work if they are carrying an item already (unless you consider that a pro)
- Have the Hatch reopen during the last 20 seconds of the EGC. Pros: Prevent's the Killer from blocking the exit gate (like in your video) in most situations (not all though). Cons: Can screw the Killer out of a Kill in some situations, is very RNG based and not reliable at all.
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Your last bullet point could be an interesting idea. ^^ @NuclearBurrito
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@fluffybunny personally I think the 3rd one has the most potential due to it being the only one which requires an active effort on the part of the Survivor (and has a counterplay requiring an active effort from the Killer)
But yeah the point is that even if right now it's too Killer sided that doesn't mean we should just start reverting things. We have alternative solutions that are less drastic/more interesting
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One thing that must be accepted when playing this game is the factor of the unknown / random combination of killer, survivor and map setup. Sometimes it works in your favour and sometimes not - it is for these reasons that not only can the game never be truely balanced but also why the game is fun to play because high risk, high reward and the unknown.
The EGC is a huge improvement over the previous version of the game. The last survivor has more chance to escape now with the hatch spawning with 0 gens completed and the killer be able to power up the doors by closing the hatch.
As previously written, camp an exit gate switch instead of looking for the hatch and insta open the exit. The killer cant check both exits at the same time. If the killer goes to your exit first, that is just how that match played out.
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@Pirscher In the video, which you clearly didn't watch, I did go straight to a gate. Since you missed it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JYW7xMyqHok&t=1s
Post edited by liquidlight on0 -
Deleted since its identical to a prior post.
Post edited by liquidlight on0 -
Deleted since its identical to a prior post.
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Deleted.
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Whoa... I guess the forum wanted to post one of my prior posts a billion times. I swear I didn't do that. xD Can you delete posts?
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Just another attempt to get free escapes. EGC is fine.
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It's not an attempt to get free escapes. If anything the video proves killers get a free kill. EGC is not fine. That's why so many people are complaining about it. The timer is awesome. The idea behind it is great. But its flawed.
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