BBQ and Chili

LOCKERS! OF COURSE! thank you. This is the kind of quality reply I was looking for.

let me play a few games where I incorporate using lockers and see how effective it is in combination with laurie's perks.

That's debatable.

I can still think of some pretty BS mechanics with BBQ. For example - iron maiden negates locker hiding. Infectious fright tells you where nearby survivors are. BBQ tells you where far away survivors are.Territorial Imperative tells you when survivors enter the Basement. Discordance tells you if survivors are doubling up generators. So If you take BBQ, Discordance, Iron Maiden, and Infectious Fright specifically on a fast moving killer or a killer with decent area denial (which is 90% of the roster) you're going to pretty much win. I don't understand how as a survivor you're supposed to counter this?

Let's take all of the anti-aura abilities - object of obsession + sole survivor + Distortion + lightweight (to hide your marks while running away from the killer during the start of the match)

in this scenario 2 teammates have to die before you get enough distance on your sole survivor to combo it with object of obsession in order to avoid being seen when in lockers. If the killer doesn't see you he's going to start searching near the hook - so you cant just hide near the hook. BBQ has a range of 40 meters. Sole survivor requires you to be within 24 meters for it to work and it only works if 1 ally is dead. So for the first 3 hooks that BBQ and Chili activate for if you're far away you can use distortion - which has exactly 3 tokens. after that your jeff johanson perk is worthless. but the killer has an opportunity to get 9 hooks not including the 3 that would kill you. so in the best scenario the killer gets 3 hooks and they're all on different survivors who try to escape using their timers and then they lag or whatever and auto die. so now you're the only one left with a maxed out sole survivor, lightweight, and object of obsession. This is still a loss because even if you escape on your own, you would have to have had zero interaction with the killer the entire match since your character doesn't have any escape perks that will allow you to earn boldness points nor do you have any support skills to aid your allies if you were to try and hook rescue, heal, coop gens, etc. which means no altruistic points. objective points will only be available in the form of cleansing dull totems and solo running gens because if you duo gen there's a chance you'll prematurely use up your token - so your points as a survivor are pretty much dead all to counter a single perk. going further now you have 24*3= 72 meters of aura imunity BUT NOT FLARE UP IMMUNITY so doctor's madness, rancor, and infectious fright still activate and will give your position away - unless you run calm spirit on top of the 4 perks you already have and you literally can't do that!

but let's assume you could and you have a player on your team that is just god tier at running the killer around in circles. so you end up with all gens rushed, all totems cleansed, all chests looted, the game has been going on for an hour and no one has opened the gate yet just because, all pallets are used up, all hooks have been broken because jake brought the brand new iridescent toolbox that no one asked for that can instantly break hooks (not a real thing) and all that's left to do is power the gates. so you go to one gate and another ally goes to the other gate - in this very niche situation yes you can escape assuming that the killer doesn't choose your gate and doesn't catch the person leading them around in circles and doesn't choose the other gate where the support/objective player is hiding then maybe.

bottom line is that this should not be a thing. BBQ and chili has too much influence in the game. If as other people have stated that blood points are the main reason why killers use it then fine give them 150% increase in blood points for all I care, but the secondary aspect of aura reading without a way for survivors to counter it is a bit obnoxious. Even with just BBQ and Iron Maiden the killer has expanded his entire area of denial to everywhere except the distance between 40 meters and his terror radius which is literally where killers want their prey to be in order to find them. Tacking on whispers will tell you who's inside of the 32 meter range. if you're moving at 4.6 meters this is a death sentence to anyone not in a locker, in a locker, outside of a locker at 40+ meters, and anyone that doesn't have some form of sprint burst or distortion tokens. Tacking on predator ruins sprint burst, tacking on spies from the shadows limits hiding behind rocks between the 40 meter and 32 meter range because birds. idk man. I'm not seeing a lot of options here for survivors.

I'd be fine with it if the perk only gave auras for the first time hanging each opponent or if there was a token system for it similar to how jeff has a token system, but the way it is now it's literally a 1 size fits all perk. A killer's swiss army knife. 4 seconds at .6 meters per second is a total of 2.4 meters gained on a survivor after hooking assuming that as a killer they're not running play with your food which grants a potential 15%-5%=10% movement speed bonus

assuming also that you're more than double the distance required of 40 meters at 80 meters you're only going to have 1 of 2 directions to go in order to avoid the killer and that's left along the wall or right along the wall because the rough average of all maps in a straight line from 1 side to the other is about 105 meters - which is once again assuming that you're on a map that is perfectly square and not distorted and irregular in shape. Literally 4 maps are like this out of 27. The science of kinematics proves that a killer will always catch an opponent so long as he predicts the path due to how linear it is. a Killer can accelerate faster than a survivor and will be on top of the survivors tracks within those 4 seconds of hooking the previous survivor.

in no scenario is BBQ not a good option.

i disagree.

okay. how do I counter iron maiden + BBQ?

the statement "buff all the others to match this 1" is a bit silly. if the end goal is to create "tough decisions between perks" then buffing the perks to all be overloaded doesn't solve that. It instead makes it so there's no wrong answer. if you're wanting the perks to be tough choices then you have to individualize them around specific game mechanics that actually matter. for example - you mentioned a desire to farm blood points as your primary reason for taking BBQ right? The problem with that rationale is that if that was all you're using it for then you'd just remove it for a better perk and run offerings like survivor pudding and such because "the aura doesn't matter" But we all know that the aura is what's giving you those blood points because without knowing where the survivors are and without actively succeeding at being a killer you're not going to get very many blood points regardless. you have to interact with the survivors to get blood points - whether that be by slowing generator progression, entering and winning chases, successfully hitting your opponent, destroying pallets, and using your ability : if you're not involved with the survivors you're not getting blood points.

The combination of blood points + aura reading that's outside of the terror radius + having an opponent hooked already creates a lose lose scenario for survivors and combining it with just iron maiden limits the counter-play substantially.

would you still take BBQ if it didn't provide aura reading at all?

@PigNRun

you say giving up, but you still have 2 perks. knowing where the survivors are and where they aren't is a powerful tool. All killers excluding the nurse move faster than the survivors. All killers at or above 4.4 movement speed can and will catch a survivor assuming they maintain chase properly due to the way bloodlust and exhausted work.

survivors get a maximum of 6 m/s movement speed when using abilities or getting hit. all of which last for 2-5 seconds max.

if your reasoning is that losing 2 perks will prevent you from getting your initial hook then I argue that you dont need 4 perks to get a merciless victory. In fact there are "adept" challenges that prove this.

it takes 20 seconds to repair a generator with 4 players and everyone using toolboxes and prove thyself - assuming no failed skill checks and it's a 4 man generator.

if the killer has bitter murmur or discordance (which i mentioned earlier) this build strategy is pretty much derailed from the beginning and the killer can typically tell just by looking at who's in their lobby what is about to happen.

i understand the various uses of distortion. they're kind of obvious.

object of obsession + sole survivor does not counter itself. straight from the wiki :

Can be used with Object of Obsession so that you can see the Killer, but they potentially can't see you. It is possible to fully conceal yourself if both Perks are at Tier III.

self heal and no mither actually counter each other 100%. are you sure YOU'VE ever used object of obession and sole survivor? The line of sight mechanic makes it so you don't even have to reveal your location while on the map you just look away when the killer isn't near you. Perks like spine chill and Dark Sense make it so you never have to worry about where the killer is and if an ally is using kindred you're going to know where he is based on that perk also. once the first teammate dies you're safe 20 meters away and it counters pig, wraith, etc. who would be using their zero range terror radius. at 2 deaths youre safe up to 48 meters which is practically 1/3 of the map and you're never going to be in a terror radius that isn't extended with the aid of distressing or other similar perks. I've used it countless times to counter players that weren't running bbq and chili and it makes hatch escapes or end game collapse escapes that much more likely.

Idk man.. the more you post the more i have to question your knowledge of the game. sure I got the cleansing information wrong - i put objective instead of bold, but you literally just provided about 9 examples that are entirely opinion based without any information to back it up and what's worse is that you've listed perks that are considered on their own better or backed by popular opinion, but you're neglecting the benefits of BBQ when combined with other perks or you're just considering typical generic builds which is a sign of inexperience and a lack of flexibility. And most importantly - you're not providing any numbers. If we neglect the numbers then anything can be balanced or broken.

I've asked for someone to explain how to counter bbq and chili and so far i've had "lockers", "distortion", and "play smart" which are all great answers in a vacuum.

lockers? = bbq+iron maiden.

distortion? = bbq has 9 potential charges. combine that with any other aura reading perk and your 3 charges are likely to be gone before 2nd generator.

play smart? = okay dad. might as well say "git gud" like the guy on the 3rd comment. this means nothing to anyone because playing smart is not a valid tactic nor is it reliable. Playing smart is almost the equivalent of blind luck in a video game because a strategy that wins 100% of the time is broken and if there's a counter to something it will be used. when there aren't counters then you're relying on prediction and prediction is a fancy word for guess. might as well flip a coin.

i mean no disrespect in any way and I appreciate the replies, but I'm looking for something concrete. opinions are fine, but i already have an opinion. I need facts. A lot of these replies are primarily just reposts of the same things constantly being spewed with little or no thought put into them and substantially lacking evidence.

you bring up an interesting point by saying that survivors should want BBQ to work. That being said, however, I think it's also important to note that the killer also wants the perk to work because of how sacrifices iridescent emblem works. without hooking survivors 9 times (interestingly enough the exact number of times you need to hook in order to have a single solo survivor remaining) you'll only get gold. this means the killer wants the match to go on for as long as possible - though the other emblems contradict this. so you're not gaining anything as a survivor by saving your ally and the killer could potentially be baiting you into entering their terror radius/the hooking zone. The killer also gets extra points if you're unable to heal the survivor for a long time and if there are 2 people wounded (because one of you might have a borrowed time perk or something similar) the killer is still benefiting more than you are. The points that are awarded for the save aren't worth the risk of having your gold/silver unbroken medal turned to bronze. you can get plenty of altruism points without saving other players from the hooks since iridescent medals in altruism don't require very much with benevolent only requiring 100 points. you start with 35. if all 3 other survivors die their first time on the hook that's only 30 points you've lost. if you unhook a survivor and they go down in 10 seconds you lose 30 points. decisive strike will guarantee you 30 points. if you were to escape the killers grasp, heal a survivor to max hp, and body block 1 time you're guaranteed gold. beyond that you get a ton of altruism points if that's your goal from just running around since your scratch marks can cover up other survivors marks during a chase.

I would argue that there are several perks in the game that are highly underrated because of how many players refuse to play outside of the chase. Iron Maiden is not suddenly meta. The meta hasn't changed as far as i'm aware. it's still noed, ruin, bbq, plus perk 4 and the 4 survivor combos of 2 perk combo class + self care + perk 4.

I think the bloodpoints for bbq and chili should be the focus for the perk. that seems to be everyone's go to argument for why they use it. 150% bloodpoints and an aura flare per 1st time hooks seems reasonable.

I understand what synergy is.

I also understand that spirit isn't the only killer that can use this combination. she was just the easiest example to prove the statement wrong with raw numbers.

it's hard to prove something when you're not using raw numbers and a lot of scenarios where the killer could hit the survivor exiting the locker is based on interactions that are extremely unreliable. for example legion could do it assuming he has a movement speed buff and is using his frenzy, but the exposed status would have to hit after he has recovered from his exhaustion. if the survivor makes the mistake of walking towards the killer after exiting the locker then most killers could hit the survivor, but those examples are too unreliable to consider a definite thing that could and would happen.

Spirit on the other hand is easy to replicate and can happen consistently.

it's not unreliable in practice, but in data it's unreliable. as far as using it to prove a point it would seem shaky and could be argued against.

you have to consider how many generators repaired, where those generators are, how close you are to the edge of the maps, where lockers are located, what other 2 perks are you running, what killer you're playing, how many survivors are left, is the trap door spawned or opened, etc.

trying to say that nobody does something based on your own personal experiences and on streamer preferences is a bit flawed. according to the video at the top of the screen apparently 100s of thousands of people are interacting with this game in some way, shape or form. even if only 1/5th of those players are private players that keep to themselves, you're still looking at 20000 people that could be playing uniquely without anyone else involved assuming that 100,000 people are playing the game regularly. And what's more not all of those players are going to be on your server nor are they going to be able to have you join because of how network protocols work.

if you're a high tier killer that loves winning and have a top secret build then you're probably not going to share that with the survivors.

tachanka is a great example of something that is popular just because internet memes. The mass appeal of something doens't have to be a direct correlation to that things worth or inherent value.