TydeTyme's exhaustion video

@Paddy4583 said:
IronWolf115 said:

@Paddy4583 said:

IronWolf115 said:

@HeroLives said:

IronWolf115 said:

@Paddy4583 said: RemoveSWF said:

Because vaulting over things and dropping down is SO HARD as a survivor.    Bullshit.    You should have lost these second/third/fourth chance crutch perks years ago. You've been coddled and you're entitled.    No survivor should be able to loop a killer for three generators or more. The reason they can is due to exploit abuse (pallet looping) and OP perks.    In future, how about learning to hide and juke instead of playing fearlessly because you know DbD killers are weak as piss and your God perks will save your griefer ass.        Like insta downs, speed addons and BBQ and ruin all the crux you use. 

I begining to think you are just a bad killer main who uses any excuse. You won’t be happy untill survivors are just AI that are easy for you to beat. You say get better at hiding but that’s only viable if the killer depart know where the gens are else your just hiding while some killer runs from gen to gen. tyme is a total ass hat who has delusions of grandeur, I had to stop following him on twitch as his stream turned into him boasting about how amazing he is and how he singlehandedly made the devs listen to his ideas and how they listen to his advise because he’s so amazing. Insta-downs, speed add-ons and BBQ are not crutch just so you know

^ tell another lie. They are indeed very crutch. I would bet you my bank account that without Moris, bbq and chilli, insta down mechanics , and NOED that killers wouldn’t have a third or more of the kill rates they do now without them. The only person you are smoke screening is yourself.  



My friend if killers didn't have the things you just mentioned, killers wouldn't be played at all because they would be useless



And there you go... the definition of a crutch. 

If your not a SWF group then you feel the same way without your crutch perks too, now your arguing my whole point 

I say this quote as a fundamental flaw in the game system, I admit I did not make that clear in this post. BBQ is not a crutch because it requires an activation, and then a follow up on you behalf. Allow me to put it into a small list.

Killer " crutches "

BBQ: Requires a survivor to be found, hooked and then requires you to leave the hook to follow up on the information you have been given

Mori: Requires a survivor to be hooked then unhhoked then downed again and finished. this also gives less points to the killer by the end of the match

Insta downs: Fundamental part of killer kits to add uniqueness.

Billy has very little control over where he moves during his sprint

Leatherface has to be up their ass for his chainsaw to do anything and is severely punished for bumping into a wall

Myers has limitations on how long he can insta down

NOED: Can be completely removed before it even triggers by destroying the totems on the map, thus it has a hard counter

Survivor crutches

Decisive strike: Allows you to escape from being hooked. The consequence is meant to be that it is one time use, but one time use is enough to make killers lose games, so effectively no consequence

Self care: Infinite healing, no consequence at all

Flashlight: Allows players to save other players from killers, I guess the consequence is timing but that is easy to figure out and maintain

Sprint Burst: Immediate escape from the vicinity of a killer with the consequence only being a 40 second cooldown.

I could go on but you get the jist. The reason people may CONSIDER BBQ to be a crutch is because of how many killers use it. This however is because of the weakness of the killer vs survivor. if the game was balanced then I would bet anything that you would see BBQ much less

Oh my god seriously:

you can apply any downside you want to these things using your argument.

Selfcare: you have to be found and hit before you can use it and requires an escape and to be out of sound radius.

DS: requires you to be downed and able to hit the skill check, once missed perk is gone and can’t be reused.

Concequence is subjective so isn’t a strong argument.

Buuuuuuut as I repeatedly try to explain the consequence is far, far, FAR lesser on survivor than killer

DS skillcheck is easy to hit
SC REMOVES the need for teamwork, eg. when you have been unhooked, you need no reliance on your team mates to heal you, you can just wander off yourself to do it

@Paddy4583 said:
IronWolf115 said:

@Paddy4583 said:

IronWolf115 said:

@Paddy4583 said:

IronWolf115 said:

@HeroLives said: IronWolf115 said:

@Paddy4583 said:    RemoveSWF said:

Because vaulting over things and dropping down is SO HARD as a survivor. Bullshit. You should have lost these second/third/fourth chance crutch perks years ago. You've been coddled and you're entitled. No survivor should be able to loop a killer for three generators or more. The reason they can is due to exploit abuse (pallet looping) and OP perks. In future, how about learning to hide and juke instead of playing fearlessly because you know DbD killers are weak as piss and your God perks will save your griefer ass. Like insta downs, speed addons and BBQ and ruin all the crux you use. 

I begining to think you are just a bad killer main who uses any excuse. You won’t be happy untill survivors are just AI that are easy for you to beat. You say get better at hiding but that’s only viable if the killer depart know where the gens are else your just hiding while some killer runs from gen to gen.    tyme is a total ass hat who has delusions of grandeur, I had to stop following him on twitch as his stream turned into him boasting about how amazing he is and how he singlehandedly made the devs listen to his ideas and how they listen to his advise because he’s so amazing.        Insta-downs, speed add-ons and BBQ are not crutch just so you know

^ tell another lie. They are indeed very crutch. I would bet you my bank account that without Moris, bbq and chilli, insta down mechanics , and NOED that killers wouldn’t have a third or more of the kill rates they do now without them. The only person you are smoke screening is yourself.   My friend if killers didn't have the things you just mentioned, killers wouldn't be played at all because they would be useless And there you go... the definition of a crutch. 

If your not a SWF group then you feel the same way without your crutch perks too, now your arguing my whole point 



I say this quote as a fundamental flaw in the game system, I admit I did not make that clear in this post. BBQ is not a crutch because it requires an activation, and then a follow up on you behalf. Allow me to put it into a small list.

Killer " crutches "

BBQ: Requires a survivor to be found, hooked and then requires you to leave the hook to follow up on the information you have been given

Mori: Requires a survivor to be hooked then unhhoked then downed again and finished. this also gives less points to the killer by the end of the match

Insta downs: Fundamental part of killer kits to add uniqueness.

Billy has very little control over where he moves during his sprint

Leatherface has to be up their ass for his chainsaw to do anything and is severely punished for bumping into a wall

Myers has limitations on how long he can insta down

NOED: Can be completely removed before it even triggers by destroying the totems on the map, thus it has a hard counter

Survivor crutches

Decisive strike: Allows you to escape from being hooked. The consequence is meant to be that it is one time use, but one time use is enough to make killers lose games, so effectively no consequence

Self care: Infinite healing, no consequence at all

Flashlight: Allows players to save other players from killers, I guess the consequence is timing but that is easy to figure out and maintain

Sprint Burst: Immediate escape from the vicinity of a killer with the consequence only being a 40 second cooldown.

I could go on but you get the jist. The reason people may CONSIDER BBQ to be a crutch is because of how many killers use it. This however is because of the weakness of the killer vs survivor. if the game was balanced then I would bet anything that you would see BBQ much less



Oh my god seriously:

you can apply any downside you want to these things using your argument.

Selfcare: you have to be found and hit before you can use it and requires an escape and to be out of sound radius.

DS: requires you to be downed and able to hit the skill check, once missed perk is gone and can’t be reused.

Concequence is subjective so isn’t a strong argument.

Buuuuuuut as I repeatedly try to explain the consequence is far, far, FAR lesser on survivor than killer

DS skillcheck is easy to hit

SC REMOVES the need for teamwork, eg. when you have been unhooked, you need no reliance on your team mates to heal you, you can just wander off yourself to do it

And as I’ve repeatedly said consequence is not a defining factor of a crutch

Well it is. Because tell me, if you used decisive strike, but after you used it the next time you were hooked you were dead immediately. Lets say this was implemented, would you still use DS? I doubt it because the CONSEQUENCE would be extremely high. You would have gone from being able to be hooked twice before the third kills you, to being hooked once immediately killing you

@Paddy4583 said:
IronWolf115 said:

@Paddy4583 said:

IronWolf115 said:

I feel I should post something here about the very apparent crutch argument that is happening here.

If a survivor uses DS as an example, they are using that perk because it is a powerful advantage with no consequence. They don't need to use it but they do because why the hell not.

If a killer uses BBQ, they are using that because they need to make as much out of the time they have as possible. Which I understand could be seen as crutch also.

The reason these two are different though is because of balance of the game: The crutch of DS is far more malicious than the crutch of BBQ.

Another important factor to look at is the ability to counter killer "crutch" perks vs survivor crutch perks.

NOED and BBQ both have counters whereas DS and SC do not, if they did, then the debate here would be different.



Nurses calling is a counter to selfcare.

Killers can block a DS in a corner rendering it useless, no hook mori counters this too.

Im pretty sure we are going to have a redefinition of the word consequence and counter now

Nurses is only a counter if they heal within your terror radius, which would be stupid on their behalf

And there is absolutely no garuntee that you will get a survivor in a corner for the DS to pop

NOED can only be countered if all the survivors cleanse which There is no guarantee will be done, BBQ you have to be right place right time to counter.

like ive said subjective arguments can’t be won, and your definition doesn’t stand as we can subjectively apply it to anything we want.

Well you have more than enough opportunity to cleanse all the totems, and I have seen it happen many times. And if someone gets downed, then you should just assume BBQ and you could get to a location where it would not affect you, such as behind a generator

@Paddy4583 said:
IronWolf115 said:

@Paddy4583 said:

IronWolf115 said:

@Paddy4583 said:

IronWolf115 said:

@Paddy4583 said: IronWolf115 said:

@HeroLives said:    IronWolf115 said:

@Paddy4583 said: RemoveSWF said:

Because vaulting over things and dropping down is SO HARD as a survivor.    Bullshit.    You should have lost these second/third/fourth chance crutch perks years ago. You've been coddled and you're entitled.    No survivor should be able to loop a killer for three generators or more. The reason they can is due to exploit abuse (pallet looping) and OP perks.    In future, how about learning to hide and juke instead of playing fearlessly because you know DbD killers are weak as piss and your God perks will save your griefer ass.        Like insta downs, speed addons and BBQ and ruin all the crux you use. 

I begining to think you are just a bad killer main who uses any excuse. You won’t be happy untill survivors are just AI that are easy for you to beat. You say get better at hiding but that’s only viable if the killer depart know where the gens are else your just hiding while some killer runs from gen to gen. tyme is a total ass hat who has delusions of grandeur, I had to stop following him on twitch as his stream turned into him boasting about how amazing he is and how he singlehandedly made the devs listen to his ideas and how they listen to his advise because he’s so amazing. Insta-downs, speed add-ons and BBQ are not crutch just so you know

^ tell another lie. They are indeed very crutch. I would bet you my bank account that without Moris, bbq and chilli, insta down mechanics , and NOED that killers wouldn’t have a third or more of the kill rates they do now without them. The only person you are smoke screening is yourself.          My friend if killers didn't have the things you just mentioned, killers wouldn't be played at all because they would be useless        And there you go... the definition of a crutch. 

If your not a SWF group then you feel the same way without your crutch perks too, now your arguing my whole point  I say this quote as a fundamental flaw in the game system, I admit I did not make that clear in this post. BBQ is not a crutch because it requires an activation, and then a follow up on you behalf. Allow me to put it into a small list. Killer " crutches " BBQ: Requires a survivor to be found, hooked and then requires you to leave the hook to follow up on the information you have been given Mori: Requires a survivor to be hooked then unhhoked then downed again and finished. this also gives less points to the killer by the end of the match Insta downs: Fundamental part of killer kits to add uniqueness. Billy has very little control over where he moves during his sprint Leatherface has to be up their ass for his chainsaw to do anything and is severely punished for bumping into a wall Myers has limitations on how long he can insta down NOED: Can be completely removed before it even triggers by destroying the totems on the map, thus it has a hard counter Survivor crutches Decisive strike: Allows you to escape from being hooked. The consequence is meant to be that it is one time use, but one time use is enough to make killers lose games, so effectively no consequence Self care: Infinite healing, no consequence at all Flashlight: Allows players to save other players from killers, I guess the consequence is timing but that is easy to figure out and maintain Sprint Burst: Immediate escape from the vicinity of a killer with the consequence only being a 40 second cooldown. I could go on but you get the jist. The reason people may CONSIDER BBQ to be a crutch is because of how many killers use it. This however is because of the weakness of the killer vs survivor. if the game was balanced then I would bet anything that you would see BBQ much less Oh my god seriously: you can apply any downside you want to these things using your argument. Selfcare: you have to be found and hit before you can use it and requires an escape and to be out of sound radius. DS: requires you to be downed and able to hit the skill check, once missed perk is gone and can’t be reused.

Concequence is subjective so isn’t a strong argument.



Buuuuuuut as I repeatedly try to explain the consequence is far, far, FAR lesser on survivor than killer

DS skillcheck is easy to hit

SC REMOVES the need for teamwork, eg. when you have been unhooked, you need no reliance on your team mates to heal you, you can just wander off yourself to do it

And as I’ve repeatedly said consequence is not a defining factor of a crutch

Well it is. Because tell me, if you used decisive strike, but after you used it the next time you were hooked you were dead immediately. Lets say this was implemented, would you still use DS? I doubt it because the CONSEQUENCE would be extremely high. You would have gone from being able to be hooked twice before the third kills you, to being hooked once immediately killing you

i would say those who use it would still use it just as much yes, because the majority will save it till last hook anyway, as they do now.

Ok then, seeing your point, it would still be a big nerf to DS because you would at least get hooks off on the survivor.
Can we agree?

@Paddy4583 said:
I agree, in the senirio your putting forward that any survivor using DS is never to be caught again the entire match, however it’s hardly a nerf to DS, I don’t know many player who would use it at the first chance unless they expected not to be saved in which case the result is the same

The nerf that I put forward is irrelevant, the point was to show the fact that after it gets nerfed, the consequence of using it would be much higher thus lowering its status as a crutch perk. The point behind this is to show that things like BBQ already have such consequences and so the validity of an argument that BBQ is a crutch perk and that killers cannot live without it is ludicrous. Killers use BBQ with the intent of being rewarded for not camping. Survivors use DS for the reward of.....dying?

@thesuicidefox said:

@IronWolf115 said:
NOED and BBQ both have counters whereas DS and SC do not, if they did, then the debate here would be different.

I'm not going derail your thread here but I want to make these points.

First DS and SC can be countered. DS can be countered by Enduring or Unnerving directly. Doc's power can also count it. Remember Me doesn't exactly counter the use of DS, but it does flip the formula and reward the killer greatly for tunneling the obsession, even letting them DS to get another token on the first hook. SC can be countered by mangled stuff, Coulrophobia now, Nurse's Calling, Thanatophobia. Are these perfect counters? No, but they are counters none the less.

My point here is that just because something can be countered doesn't absolve it of being a crutch. I don't think BBQ or Ruin are killer crutches, but NOED definitely is a crutch and here's why... it is purely a comeback mechanic that rewards failure. That's literally all it is there for. It's there to help the killer make up for poor performance near the end of the game. And where it really differs from other perks like BBQ is that it does not require the killer to do anything to gain the benefits from it. BBQ at the very least requires you to catch and hook someone to gain the benefits. Remember Me requires you to find and hit the obsession enough. Nurse's requires you to find and hit someone first. There are conditions which must be met on the killer's end to gain those benefits. NOED has none of that. It just... happens.... because you failed. Even if you look at all other insta-downs, there is some catch, something the killer must do to gain that insta-down. Devour, hook 3 people and ALLOW the saves. MYC, hook someone then allow a save. Myers EW3, gain enough EW. Chainsaws and insta-hatchets, actually hit someone with a more difficult to aim attack. Yadda yadda.

I'd be all for making NOED more powerful if it was changed in such a way that the killer was required to do something to gain the benefits. Maybe they have to get 1 hook on everyone before the gates power. Maybe they need to kill someone before the gates power. Maybe they need to make survivors bleed collectively for 2 minutes over the course of the game. I'm just throwing out random ideas here, my point is that NOED is totally a crutch perk simply because of the conditions under which it activates.

I certainly have my issues with NOED, but my point is that NOED can be completely negated if you want it to be. Compare that to DS which the things you mention are not hard counters, they are more soften the blow sort of things. When DS gets nerfed I actually am in favor of a NOED re-work, but ONLY after DS has been addressed.

But we do agree on everything else.

@Paddy4583 said:
IronWolf115 said:

@Paddy4583 said:

I agree, in the senirio your putting forward that any survivor using DS is never to be caught again the entire match, however it’s hardly a nerf to DS, I don’t know many player who would use it at the first chance unless they expected not to be saved in which case the result is the same

The nerf that I put forward is irrelevant, the point was to show the fact that after it gets nerfed, the consequence of using it would be much higher thus lowering its status as a crutch perk. The point behind this is to show that things like BBQ already have such consequences and so the validity of an argument that BBQ is a crutch perk and that killers cannot live without it is ludicrous. Killers use BBQ with the intent of being rewarded for not camping. Survivors use DS for the reward of.....dying?

I’ve already said that the consequence won’t stop it being used as a crutch because it’s not because of consequence or lack there of that makes it a crutch.

do you honestly believe that with the nerfs coming, that self care and sprit burst won’t still be used just as much?

I don’t because they aren’t crutches because of the the definition your using. 

BBQ doesn’t have a consequence in the same way your defining the consequence for DS, what your referring to is circumstantial, not consequential.

Your suggesting a detriment to an advantage which negates the advantage, BBQ doesn’t have this, insta downs don’t have this. It’s not a comparison 

I do believe that SC and SB will be still used and here is why:

The self care nerf they have proposed is not enough, and back to the original point of this discussion, they are nerfing ALL the exhaustion perks which negates the nerf to SB because it will still be the best exhaustion perk to use

And you are correct that BBQ is circumstantial rather than consequential, however this is where my point is coming from, the circumstance for BBQ is in a good place, and the consequence for using BBQ is also in a good place ( Ability to trick the killer through your aura if you are clever )
DS is circumstantial in the fact that you have to be downed, true, but after that what is the consequence like with BBQ? There is none. You zoom away and will probably have the killer on the run for another 3 minutes.

And the detriment to insta downs is that they are predictable and easily dodged. If you try to use an insta down attack too much you are actually going to hurt yourself rather than help.