If you're going to rework Nurse, then rework SWF
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I often play solo but sometimes with friends and after this there would be no reason to play the game, even for fun. It doesn't feel fair to get punished just because you like playing with friends.
Currently, it is also impossible for the game to distinguish who is in a swf and who is not. When dedicated servers come out then maybe something can be done.
What I think should be done is make the killer earn more bloodpoints and progress to emblems throughout the match.
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I guarantee you, while Bullying with friends will stay untouched, the Nurse will be turned into a power gauge laughing stock.
The day Monstrum 2 will be released can't come soon enough.
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She deserve a Nerf stop complaining for something broken
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If we're going to talk about how OP SWF is can we talk about how underpowered a 4 man solo game is?
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They're not going to buff killers if they are allowed to keep holding survivors to different standards.
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Nurse deserves to be nerfed. Her power simply breaks the game. But, they should buff all other killers not named Billy, Hag, and Spirit to around Billy level. Then, bridge the gap between solo and SWF and balance accordingly. Definitely easier said than done though.
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Nurse needed to be changed, the game is changing, maps are changing, to make the game balanced for both killer and Survivors. And Nurse herself is a killer that completely messed with the balance. Yes there are hardcore swf, but it's easier to work on nurse first than tackle swf.
Noone should also be punished based on the assumption every swf is a depip squad.
Nurse and Hardcore swf are just like the maps, a game design issue. And all 3 are being worked on currently.
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Just like nurse needs to be reworked for balance so does swf. Since y'all are capable of realizing that nurse needs to be balanced, then you can admit that swf needs to be balanced right?
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SWF is not comparable to the Nurse.
The thing that makes SWF a problem isn't the mechanics.
There is nothing that you could possibly tweak about SWF that would make SWF fair.
You would either accomplish nothing anyways regarding that problem, or you would just end up with people bypassing the SWF button and using the Solo que to get the benefits anyways with some effort pre-game.
Remember, the issue with SWF is voice coms. And since voice coms isn't actually a mechanic that is explicitly tied to SWF it simply isn't possible to use tweaks to the SWF button in order to fix it.
What you need to do is make changes to ALL survivors which make VC sufficiently redundant that Solo's aren't at a significant relative disadvantage. At which point whichever problems SWF brings in will now apply to Solo's as well. And if it applies to everyone equally then we can balance around it, no matter what it is.
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This is applying different standards to killers and survivors.
If no one should be 'punished on the assumption every SWF is a depip squad', then killers should not be punished on the assumption that every Nurse is an omegablink-equipped clarivoyant with sprinkles.
Claims that the Nurse no longer requires more than an ordinary level of practice have yet to be substantiated and have plenty of evidence in contradiction.
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My post did acknowledge that, but that doesn't negate the fact that nurse needed to be looked at especially now with the adjustments of maps.
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Balancing around the highest potential of a character is how you balance things so they don't become broken, if you don't then you have broken killers like Nurse and Hardcore broken Survivors when in Optimal SWF's.
I don't understand how that's different standards.
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It's different standards because because you manage to maintain two mutually-incompatable propositions
- Balance should be determined at the known ceiling, which is top-play
- No one should be punished on the assumption that they are capable of top-play
Pick one.
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You say pick one, but this is a multiplayer game swf is not just the culmination of ones individual skill, it's a mixture of map design, team coordination and more.
Especially since this is asymmetrical, it would be more difficult to balance around that.
Yes, balance should be determined by the highest skill level so things aren't broken. But in team play it's harder to do so due to coordination.
So balancing nurse first is a start, this isn't saying swf shouldn't be balanced as well. But this does not negate the fact nurse needs to be rebalanced.
Balancing an individual killer who at the highest level of play breaks the game, is the easiest to do at the moment because it's one individual character.
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This just completely evades the issue; you do not at any point explain why because this is an asymmetrical multiplayer game, why such starkly different standards are justified.
What makes SWF so powerful is coordination, but by the power of double-standards: coordination now becomes the reason why survivors should not be measured by the top-play.
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When balancing swf, you don't have to balance all 4 characters individually. It's just one system. Hell, it's not even like there's a mix of different types of survivors to make things more complicated. Balancing swf may not be as straight forward as some more simpler reworks. But refusing to do something because it's hard is a horrible idea. And even then, it won't be any harder than listening to creative ideas if they're not creative enough to come up with them on their own and seeing which ones work.
They introduced swf into the game knowing it would be a problem and then have proceeded to take absolutely 0 steps towards solving it. Meanwhile, they've already worked on pretty much every single killer at least one time including the Nurse already. It's years past time that swf was given the focus.
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if they really dare to touch nurse and leave swf how it is then we have to stand up boys. it will ruin the high rank gameplay.
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I said that swf isn't just individual skills. I also said it was a mix of things, which is more of the reason nurse is first to see balancing for because shes easier to do.
They are actually working on swf believe it or not, with map reworks and etc. But they're not avoiding it because it's harder, it just takes LONGER due to so many variables.
It's not just nurse getting balanced she's just the first step of many.
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By the way, I'll be leaving this discussion, have a good one.
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Okay, what is going on? I have 100 notifications in this topic. :/
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You draw dividing lines when it suits you Gardenia.
Can't balance individual survivors swiftly because of the dynamic between them. Killer can be balanced in multiple knee-jerk ways though, because there is of course no dynamic between the killer and the four other players in the game.
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There are a hundred things that are easier to do than the swf rework. Giving something priority because it's easier is a fool's path. The most pressing matters are the ones that should be given priority.
Map reworks at etc have nothing to do with balancing swf. That has to do with balancing maps and etc. There has only been a single time that I can recall them touching swf and that was to make things easier for swf groups. They attempted to get all 4 survivors to load in at once so killers couldn't tell if they were going against swf or not. It was an attempt to stop killers from dodging, but there was a problem with the system that caused longer queue times so they reverted it. Though ironically, they have since added a much more screwed up version of that system back that has the longer queue times but doesn't have the survivors all loading in at once.
Trust me, it's not "variables" making it take longer. It's laziness. It's the fact that they're just not doing anything about it.
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OK I'll bite
tell me how to """balance""" SWF without making the game even more miserable for solo survivors in an easy way. I'll wait.
It has to be a fix as easy as tweaking a killer btw.
And it can't make the solo survivor experience worse.
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They are working on what makes SWF opressive in the map changes, removing longer loops, reducing the number of safe pallets and generally making looping a way to buy extra seconds and escape, as opposed ro just being able to mindlessly run for an entire game.
And you know what, ill say this as a Killer veteran, SWF can be annoying, when you get a perfectly optimised group that play every tile optimaly with pitch perfect routes, those are incredibly rare even at R1, and if your team has got to that level of communication and skill, yes you should have an advantage. Just as putting hundreds of hours into Nurse should give you an advantage to learn her.
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That's a whole discussion that can't happen until everyone agrees it should be on a level playing-field. That has been my problem for 3 years.
First everyone(especially the devs) has to drop the BS that survivors should be measured along the standard of 'most don't play optimally though or are even capable of it'. If killers are going to be judged on their power at the maximum known potential, the so should survivors.
The conversation can not even begin until this is the consensus. No more fudging.
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The very first post in this thread has 5 possibilities that would reduce the impact of oppressive swf groups without affecting solo players, but just for the hell of it, I'll give even more cause the ideas aren't hard to come up with if you actually try to think of them instead of be close minded.
- Make only one instance of certain perks available amongst all players in an swf group. Obviously perks like WGLF should be available to everybody, but forcing variability in a number of the more potent perks like Balanced Landing and Self Care would reduce impact.
- After the game has loaded, show in the HUB which survivors are part of a swf group. This gives the killer a significant amount of info about what to look out for which is only fair considering the massive amount of info survivors get from voice communication.
- If one swf member disconnects or suicides, the hatch won't open if the last remaining survivor is also in the same swf group for a minute after they die.
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That has nothing to do with SWF and everything to do with how much power a lone survivor has over the majority of killers with how long they can loop them. That's an entirely different problem, but also one that needs to be solved, just like hard camping, gen rushing, tunneling, and intentionally disconnecting.
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did you play the the springwood maps? they have now x1000 pallets and still the same amount of safe ones.
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You do know that identifying problematic structures and knowing when to give up chases is part of being a good killer right?
Not saying there aren't BS tiles and maps, but people blow that WAY out of proportion.
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You do know you're suggesting group-specific changes in DEAD BY DAYLIGHT right? The game that has a code so messed up that changes to, idk, how the grass rustles makes a perk boost your action speed for everything?
Keep it realistic, please.
I'm not even sure killers should know who's in a group. Our community isn't mature enough for that.
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With all due respect, map designs do affect swf in my opinion. They determine loops, how many windows and pallets there are. It might not be noticable but it's there.
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Then you agree with me when I say balance should happen around the potential of top play. I said in multiple posts this exact thing but you kept telling me about double standards. I even said that coordination, map design, and more are the variables which are problems in SWF? So why were you trying to argue with me?
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Yeah, I agree with that and have done for 3 years ago; you didn't come up with it. The problem is that you want to make a special exception for survivors, which means you don't even agree with yourself.
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I never said or want to make a special exception for Survivors? I just said that Nurse is just first, not that swf shouldn't be balanced..so where did you get that from?
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"Noone should be punished on the assumption every swf is a depip squad".
This is incompatible with the idea that all sides should be measured on the basis of their maximum known potential.
The Nurse must not be touched, until there is a clear consensus that balance should be based on top-play for everyone and that consensus must include the devs and they must say so unequivocally. No more double-standards.
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Keyword: Punished.
No offense, but some of these ideas you all have had to "balance" swf are not balance just penalties. Limiting the gameplay for them instead of adding an alternative.
As someone who seems to lobby for killer, I would've assumed you would request something for Killers or actually wait until the next patch to see what else they do to maps and perks they may give in the upcoming chapter to help. Or maybe even have discussed the upcoming rank Rework for the killers.
Just to reiterate, the suggestions are penalties for the most part not balance changes. It would just make playing with friends as Survivor greatly unfun.
It just seems you play killer majority of the time rather than both sides. And it seems alot of people forget, the devs don't want people to view this game as Survivors vs. Killer.
They want players to view this game as a complete thing.
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They dont have to do anything just cause you whine. so thats how things work for you? "Nerf one thing so you gotta nerf another", is honeslty how a child argues.
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while a lot of these ideas are kind of heavy, they are very easily workable. one thing i loved about old DBD before SWF was feeling like you were alone. even though four survivors were facing the same person as killer, each one had they’re own story of what happened that trial, and the only cooperating was if someone had kindred, and that was basically, “haha you’re closest, go unhook him.”. while some suggestions like them not being able to leave at the same time are similar to perks like blood warden, the nerfs like slower gen repairs i do really like. if these survivors get the added bonus of east cooperation, they should have to rely heavily on that to succeed.
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I don't lobby for killer; that would imply that I believe the devs listen to killers. I have yet to see a shred of evidence they do. I also play both sides, I just don't feel the need to proclaim it like it's important: only very superficial people think it is. There is however much over-lap, still a great number of people with an overwhelming preference for one side over another. The devs pretend to ignore this, but their actions say otherwise; they are as survivor-partisan as I am killer-partisan.
Killers are constantly being punished, so it's quite hard to tell the difference you're trying to impress on me. Killers see all nerfs as punishments. Survivors are lucky enough they can somehow see even buffs as punishments and no one comments on how ridiculous it is.
I do not make specific suggestions for game changes unironically or with any intent that they be actually implemented; only ever as part of an argument, to make a point. This is because such suggestions are always filtered through the group-think and hypocrisy that influences every change that gets implemented. There's a reason why killers are so keen on every change we see going into a PTB but survivors want new toys straight away: they know the devs won't let them down, but killers know anything offered to us has a catch and we want to find out what it is before it goes live if we can.
With hatch-closing for example, the devs waited until after the PTB for it to then pull the 'oh we're going to make it so it powers the gates automatically', completely defeating the purpose of why killers had been requesting it. It was also the only request killers had notably and expressly made which had come close to the live version without being compromised. At least before it was compromised.
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This game's core identity nowadays is of an action game with horror elements, not a horror game.
Unfortunately those feelings don't come back. Even if SWF didn't exist, people would play efficiently anymore, and the fear factor would also have vanished.
I'd love to be able to play this game as a fresh experience again, too, and feel dread when trying to hide from Huntress while hearing her lullaby, or the first Hag/Myers jumpscare... But those days are long gone, and ain't coming back.
Even if SWF didn't exist, those feelings are but a memory.
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Funny how it's punishment when it happens to survivors, but not when it happens to killers. "Limiting gameplay"? That's what the majority of reworks do for killers. Hag and Trapper were the only reworks where they clearly became better. Wraith was close, but they shadow nerfed his ability to see blood in stealth which was a step backward after the step forward. Freddy is more viable, but his options haven't expanded and it's hard to say whether he has more options or is more limited in playstyle yet.
But every other change I can remember definitely limited the gameplay of killers. The original Freddy nerf destroyed him even though he wasn't powerful to begin with. Early trapper changes limited where he could put his traps which is definitely a limitation even if a well deserved one (situation sound familiar?). Plague got plagued with limitations from ptb to release reducing her viability dramatically. Clown's bottles have received a number of nerfs limiting their usefulness. And of course nobody is going to let you forget about the Legion rework which removed all kinds of possibilities and limited it to a preset style of gameplay where you use the power to try to get an easy first hit and then god for the standard M1 killer down. Again, Legion's rework was very much needed and very much limiting EXACTLY the situation that any limiting swf reworks would be.
This isn't the first time they've touched the Nurse specifically. Last time they touched the nurse, her default blinks went from 3 to 2 which is definitely limited. And all common sense dictates that they're going to at the very least reduce the 5 blink maximum that addons provide which will be further limiting. Personally, I won't be surprised if they made her base kit only have a single blink and force her to be addon dependent for a 2nd blink. Omega blinks also have an incredibly high chance of having their range reduced or have stacking removed which will further limit her. And yes, 5 blink nurse and omega blink nurse should indeed have it's power reduced, but even if it should happen that's still limiting, but tell me why it somehow isn't punishing when if you do the exact same thing to swf, it becomes punishing?
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This.
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So, which SWF are we talking about here? The team of skilled players cranking out gens who have maps broken down for communication purposes? Or are we talking about the usual SWF you see outside of red ranks where the Meg is wandering around half the time looking for a gen while claudette hides in a bush, Bill urban evades from chest to chest and Kate keeps blowing up the gens?
The idea that SWF takes no skill is laughable because most SWFs I run into are more like a 3 stooges reunion and they are lucky to knock out 2 gens. God help them if you have ruin up, they scramble for the totem immediately.
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- You cannot put restrictions on Cwf, they have proven willingness to spend minutes getting into lobbies as " 4 randoms who coincidentally happen to be on teamspeak". It would happen again.
- If implemented, Ingame Voicechat cannot have restrictions like range or being able to be heard by killer, as Cwf would avoid those restrictions by using external programs like discord, skype or TS. It'd instantly degrade into a tool only used to hurl insults at killeres or nonmembers of the Cwf-group.
- The whole advantage Cwf happens outside of game mechanics, unless you add coordination tools, you cannot change the difference between normal and CwF
- Map rework is not an Cwf issue, it affects all survivors.
- All buffs to survivors will be boosted by Cwf, most nerfs mitigated or lessened.
- As example to the former point, providing information tools will also help Cwf, reducing the need to ask for or provide information, freeing time to strategize more.
- Just because ~95% of survivors are potatoes doesnt mean that the potential "sweaty tryhard cwf depip squadettes" dont' exists.
- "Omgogsgzotgl staaahp chaaaasing meeeeh" is equal to "killer on me, rush gens" in terms of information provided. The myth of survivors "just chatting" is laughable.
As we cant get rid of Cwf we might need to give swf and solo ping tools(mobas/apexlegends) or message systems (counterstrike/IdentityV) to lessen the gap. There has been some idea of a "current action icon" on survivor status somewhere in the forum too.
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I agree on the "Allowing only one of each item in a 3-4 man SWF", but everything else is far too overly negative
Honestly one of the best ways to fix the generator repair stuff would be to balance out the generator repair speeds manually for every killer. For example if going against a stealth killer like Ghostface, the first 2 generators will take much longer to repair then normal before returning to to current repair speed time at around 2-3 gens left
If against a mobile killer like Hillbilly, generators will take the same time as they do now. This in my opinion this will ensure a more fair and enjoyable system for both killers and survivors, without overly dampening players with extraordinary debuffs
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