Regarding The Math Behind The Nurse Changes
Found this on the steam forums and I am really only using it for numbers, so while I will be copy pasting it, I will do some grammar checks and change some wording so it isn't so... strong in its wording we will say. Also note right here: There is no TL:DR so don't bother looking for it or commenting without reading the whole post
With that out of the way let the copy pasta begin:
I am putting here all the math regarding the nurse changes to her base kit. Whoever is saying "mimimi is just a 6 seconds CD" is not reading into this as much as they should since, as you ll read below its not just that. Please remember that numbers do not lie.
It turns out that her movement speed in a straight line is comparable, if not slightly less, to a low MS killer like the hag or the huntress if not 3% less. In my math it turns out her movement speed in a straight line is 107%
I think this is what BHVR is trying is since her power is "unfair" they are trying to normalize the nurse around killers like the huntress so she eventually catch up in a straight line but not as fast as basically any other killer. I'll show you the math once and explain it so you can use it in your arguments if you have any.
In the first scenario, the nurse sees a survivor at 40 meters working on a gen she immediately double blinks toward the survivor getting 8 meters close to the survivor as a double blink covers 32 meters if the survivor doesn't move during those 2 blinks. Then the Nurse has to undergo 2 seconds of fatigue then she has to wait for 4 more seconds for the cd while she can move at 3.85 ms covering a distance of 15.4 m in now 6 seconds from the start of the chase.
Then she has to charge the blink for 2 seconds (we are at 8 from the start)now the nurse covers 20 meters in 1.5 seconds (so she covered 35.4 meters in 9.5 seconds) now she has to again charge the blink for 1 seconds (chain blink). Now she travels 12 meters in about 0.75 seconds and then the cycle repeats so the story ends here the total time is 11.25 seconds
in this time the nurse has done
15.4m + 20m + 12m + 1m (this considers the slight movement you can perform while fatigued and while holding your blink) = 48.4m
In the same amount of time a survivor can run for 11.25*4=45 meters.
However, also in the same amount of time, the trapper could run for 51.75 meters so if we just put it in proportion we see exactly what movement speed the Nurse is left at, going in a straight line.
45/100 = 48.4/x
x=107.556%
Reminds me a lot of the hag, huntress, and spirit ms that is around 110% Except 3% slower. And this is while the Nurse is using her power, all of the killers listed have ways of either closing the distance or in the huntresses case she somewhat ignores the distance she loses at that speed.
Bare in mind that Evil within 1 Myers is at roughly or exactly (can't remember) 105% movement speed.
Before this change the nurse effective movement speed if only blinking over and over was around 155% This mathematically proves that whoever is saying around that this change to the base kit is not a big deal is just wrong. 155% to 107% just from a 3 second charge is quite the difference. Probably the largest nerf a killer has ever seen in DbD.
So with these changes the nurse effectively lost around 50% of her mobility (and therefore nearly her entire potential as a competitive killer). Then it is obvious that those players who weren't using the nurse power at its full potential (by using the movement instead of blinking) wont notice the difference.
The math does not lie.
This is mathematically proved, the second survivors understand how to play against this by "running straight while trying to break line of sight" or even just a straight line since that will be fairly effective at wasting time.
Nurse will be a terrible killer now. I can assure not even playing, just by looking the numbers and knowing how the killer works, the only time she ll be able to catch a survivor will be when a survivor doesn't know this and tries to loop her/juke her by running back towards her.
but if a survivor has the brain necessary to adapt their game-play from looping -> running straight there will be very little chance the Nurse could keep up/not lose the survivor.
Theoretically, she is now worse than Legion in her base form.
Now note from the copy paste r/editor, I personally think killers should be judged from their entire capability, add ons included, and while some add ons should definitely alleviate this issue, it concerns me for the future of base killer balance. Most tournaments go by the rules of no add ons and no items, some have slowly gone towards allowing perks, but this is mostly to balance out the difference in the power of survivors without perks compared to killers without perks (survivors have a clear advantage without needing to worry about BBQ, Ruin, and NoEd).
However, with this change and possibly future changes, tournaments that run like this won't be able to unless if their deciding factor is how fast all 4 survivors escape, because without nurse, no killer can stand up to the power of a SWF competitive squad with no perks or add ons. Anyway back to the actual copy pasta.
This is a snap of a discussion I had with someone else on discord, so I decided to post this to raise awareness of what I like to call the "bhvr balance designer" because let's be honest... even for them this time they truly managed to pull out an incredible nerf to Nurse's base power.
Back to the editor, I decided to edit this post from the steam forums as I felt the content was important, however the original poster was a bit... heated when he made this so the language got him removed from the steam forums. However, I edited this to as polite and logical as possible since this is a concern for all people who play killer, even people who play casually.
These gigantic nerfs need to be given the attention they deserve as this is removing the skill cap of the game. Now as stated before and I will bold it for people who weren't paying attention.
People who didn't use Nurse to her full potential/were still learning her won't find too much of a difference in her power.
However, for people who were amazing at Nurse, especially base nurse, a large percent of her skill cap was removed. Meaning that average Nurse players will be closer matched to god like nurse players as her power now has less potential to it.
This brings up issues in the fact that competitive players now have less reason to get better since you can only push a character so far. And once you hit that skill cap, you quite literally can't play any better with the character.
This was exactly why Freddy got his buff in the first place, you could only do so much with him which made really good Freddy players, and people who were playing him for the first time nearly identical in how they played him.
In conclusion, this points more towards the inevitability that BHVR is actively trying to remove the competitive side to DbD by reducing the skill ceiling of killers. I can only imagine the nerfs that will soon come to all top tier killers. Spirit, Billy, and Huntress are probably first. I don't know exactly what nerfs will happen, but I know 2 things. 1. They will reduce the skill ceiling of the character, making them much worse to high skill players, and the nerf nearly un-noticeable to moderate to low skill players and 2
Nerfs will come to them.
Sorry about the wall of text, but if you stuck it out, good for you and I hope this gave you a new view on the base changes to the nurse, and if you are skipping down to find a TL:DR. Well too bad I don't got one and the content above is too important to summarize. However, if you did skip down here and didn't bother to read the post, don't bother to comment either. You will either be disproved by something above or not get the point of the post. So if you are too lazy to read, just be too lazy to post something.
But if you did read then feel free to leave a comment, i'm interested to see what people have to say, if this post doesn't immediately get removed because BHVR doesn't want the math getting out there or something IDK.
Last few notes, the English may be a bit off as the original post wasn't made by a native English speaker, but I tried to make it as comprehensible as possible since the content is important to get out there. Also, there are many factors not taken into consideration with the math, but for most maps this should work out, and on some maps not so much. Anyway, thank you for reading.
Comments
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Holy text, Batman!
But seriously, I see what they're trying to say. It's more of a change than people think, but what this fails to incorporate is that her chase potential is mostly still there, because Survivors don't run in a straight line. She can still be used competitively.
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They don't run in straight lines because they haven't figured it would be the best play. Straight lines out in the open would still be a bad idea sure. But running through buildings, rooms, or any other LoS blocker will force the Nurse into a very costly guessing game. Remember she is unable to chase by foot. Any Nurse that doesn't blink is going to lose a lot of ground.
It will be up to the survivor to determine whether or not she has reduction addons. Then it becomes a run if you hear heart beat game while she waits for two blinks to come back.
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Relying on survivors being ignorant isn’t a valid point. Good survivors will exploit this.
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She may have been slowed to 107%, but that's still 107% through walls, pallets, windows, and floors.
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Long blinks are a survivors best friend. Keeping a Nurse using long blinks makes her easier to juke. Short blinks is where pallets, windows, and walls start to matter. Keep her at a distance and you will do fine.
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Ok so some things regarding your math.
- Fatigue time after 2 blinks is 2.5 seconds not 2 seconds
- During Fatigue she moves at 0.96 M/S. Your math didn't include this distance at all
- While charging a blink the Nurse moves at 2.89 M/S. Again your math didn't include this distance
Second, here's the math for if you instead only use 1 blink rather than 2.
2 seconds of charging (5.78 meters), 1.5 seconds of travel (20 meters), 2 seconds of fatigue (1.92 meters), 1 second of walking (3.85 meters)
that's 31.55 total meters before the cycle can repeat and it takes 6.5 seconds which is 4.85384615 M/S
Remember that a 115% Killer is 4.6 M/S meaning this is about 121.25% effective movement speed.
Correcting your initial math would be:
2 seconds of charging (5.78 meters), 1.5 seconds of travel (20 meters), 1 second of charging (2.89 meters), 0.9 (12/13.33 = 0.9 not 0.75) seconds of travel (12 meters), 2.5 seconds of fatigue (2.4 meters), 3.5 seconds of walking (13.475 meters)
That's a total of 56.545 meters over 11.4 seconds which is 4.96008772 M/S or about 122.5% effective movement speed.
The reason why you'd use 1 blink over 2 is because that way you can immediately secure a hit if you run into a Survivor while patrolling without having to risk not having a chainblink ready.
without the cooldown it would be:
2 seconds of charging (5.78 meters), 1.5 seconds of travel (20 meters), 2 seconds of fatigue (1.92 meters)
for one blink and
2 seconds of charging (5.78 meters), 1.5 seconds of travel (20 meters), 1 second of charging (2.89 meters), 0.9 (12/13.33 = 0.9 not 0.75) seconds of travel (12 meters), 2.5 seconds of fatigue (2.4 meters)
for two which is 5.03636364 M/S for 1 blink and 5.45189873 M/S for 2 blinks
In otherwords this nerf is removing 0.18251749 M/S for 1 blink and 0.49181101 M/S for 2 blinks.
Is that a big deal? Yes. But not so much a big deal that running in a straight line becomes a good idea.
Also 155% would be 6.2 M/S or 0.74810127 M/S faster than she actually moved. So she never moved at 155% unless you are talking about addons.
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TLDR: The math is wrong so the conclusion is false.
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This is just wrong, the way you did the math is extremely incorrect. And to say Nurse now is worse than reworked legion in a matter of proportion, is just extremely stupid.
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Nurse actually moves at 96.25% survivor running speed, or 3.85m/s.
Compared to current Nurse, the only difference is 6 seconds of cooldown between double blinks. As this starts from the start of fatigue, you remove 2.5 seconds for the fatigue time as that was already present.
In the 3.5 remaining seconds, a survivor can run 14 meters.
In the 3.5 remaining seconds, the Nurse can run 13.475 meters.
The difference in distance a survivor can gain from current patch to the rework is 0.525 meters. HALF A METER when you can still move and see where they go.
That's before considering she has 2 different add ons to reduce the cooldown time to almost nothing after fatigue.
That's also ONLY to double blink, after already double blinking, you can still single blink out of fatigue basically infinitely.
TLDR: It's half a meter difference. Nurse was not "balanced," be happy you got a tiny nerf not a full Legioning.
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This is actually such a dumb post because yes, nurse is only slightly faster than a survivor if they are in a straight line, but it simply does not matter. In a chase she simply blinks 20 meters, than an aditional 10 (she walks a little) and that is in 3 seconds, so she can more than reach any survivor.
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just cause of the TLDR:
*Cries in Legion main*
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People will just go through a ridiculous amount of mental gymnastics to try to find a way to justify keeping Nurse as broken as possible. If I were them I'd just be happy "Nurse can no longer blink out of LOS" was an add on downside, not a base kit downside with an add on to reverse it.
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"Theoretically, she is now worse than Legion in her base form."
Um, a Trapper with full PWYF stacks walks faster than Legion goes in FF. I dont really think I need to say more, but I will.
People compare things to Legion cause Legion is one of the worse atm. BUT just cause you say it, doesn't mean it's true.
Last thing. Nurse can still go through walls...
Side Note: Doctor is stated to be the next in line for any kind of work.
Post edited by UlvenDagoth on1 -
i think what people didn't realize that it's her map control take a huge hit. Instead of blinking right away, you forced to spend 3.5 sec walking instead of blinking. so you basically trade the blinking speed with walking speed in that 3.5 sec
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Then just single blink while patrolling.
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Also, this is not something you can get good. you can't possibly increase your map control just by playing like a god, like M1 killers, you still move 115% regardless your experience
So, this nerf is a limit, not a good nerf.
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so that means basically you loss your second blink every time you blink to travel the map, which is a net loss too
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Well do you want to have the blink ready for a chase or not?
I gave you the math for both decisions, and they are still far better off than the vast majority of Killers are.
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And all of this is basically negated by a single green add on anyway.
Oh no, Nurse isn't flawless without add ons, the horror!
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can we just stop arguing about this and Buff the weaker Killers please?
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You say that, but what happens when they learn to run in a straight line? Like how you learn to not cleanse against plague, or you learn to suck hatchets. It just takes time for survivors to adjust to the change and for the real effects to be seen, but I doubt you will see that in any rank below 10 after a month or 2 of the change being live.
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I applaud you for checking it, I just assuming it was right from the copy pasta, but the point still stands of her maximum potential or skill ceiling being lowered. Not as much as I originally thought however, it’s still there.
So is DbD really trying to remove the competitive viability of killers? At least no addons no perks no items, competitive play.
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I think they balance the game with add-ons in mind (Means add-ons dependent)
Because people think that if a killer can do well with no add-ons, that killer is op because with add-ons he is more than op. And so they ask for nerfs (In this case, nurse)
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"No addons no perks no items, competitive play" is 100% NOT what they should ever aim to balance the game around. They've used the vanilla experiment to get information about it, but that should NEVER be considered more than real gameplay, where 99% of the time, the killer has add ons and perks.
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"iTs jUsT 3 sEcOndS" or "ShE iS sTiLL tHe BeSt, jUsT adApt aND giT gUd"
Literally only comes from people who never played Nurse on the highest level and have no understanding or survivor mains who want her to get butchered down.
I saw that post aswell, it's some good calculating. Thanks for making it more Reading friendly, it was the onky reason why I haven't posted it here already aswell.
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It should be. You balance around vanilla, then you add addons into the pool.
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Agree, add-ons should only change how you play, like how they did with Myers
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Exactly, or what they did with some Nurse addons recently
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This is a funny post for a few reasons...
That poster shows the exact reason why she needed to be nerf'ed. It is funny to show how powerful she was, then what she will become, then complain about how she's losing her competitiveness. So you just showed how overpowered she was and that the Devs want to bring her movement more inline with the other killers.
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I don't care about tournaments... Using that as an argument aswell is bullshit, since, IMO, a big portion of the community don't / can't participate in them.
People will still have tourneys, they just change the rules to suit. So... using that as an argument for not making changes to the game is BS.
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I get it though.... If you enjoyed playing a character in a game allot, then the developers change it... That can be frustrating. Some people can't roll with the punches and feel they need to "stand up" to this injustice... rather than just accepting it as a "for the greater good" for the game.
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Maybe understanding the reasoning for the increase in disconnects might get people to accept there must be changes to the game.
What do you think is going to happen once disconnecters start getting "punished" when the reasoning for them disconnecting isn't getting addressed?
Once the disconnecting punishments come in, there will be a drop in the player base, but at least they might be able to cushion the fall a bit by removing some of the crap that is causing players to disconnect in the first place.
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Who really cares about GOD Nurse players having to relearn their Nurse play, or stay GODs with them, cause they will still be good with the Nurse anyways... You know they can actually branch out and play other killers instead aswell.
Funny. Giggles!
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People disconnects because of 5 blinks and omega blinks, not base nurse. Base nurse is fair for both side
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In no way should players who are stomping their feet (disconnecting) because they choose to not change up their play style (which what nurse enforces) be acknowledged.... disconnecting screws over the players who wanna play against a nurse or a Billy.... because a player just doesnt wanna go against nurse or legion or any other killerdoesnt mean disconnecting is the answer..... if players just DC, they hinder themselves from getting better and possibly learning a better way of playing the game..
Edit: I cant wait for the team to punish DC's because perhaps theyll leave and then I'll have a better chance of getting a better teammate... sheit, I'll take a rank 20 vs a player who DC because they dont wanna go against a Billy.
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Don't compliment the calculating. The math in this post is completely wrong.
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Do it better then my friend. Or correct what's wrong.
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I already did that. It's towards the top of this thread
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@justarandy right here
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So the difference between old and new nurse is even bigger? Well, this just makes the argument that the nurse change is very significant much stronger
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No. These differences are much smaller than the ones stated in the OP.
The OP was suggesting the new Nurse is 4.28 M/S and that old Nurse was 6.2 M/S
In reality the new Nurse is 4.96 M/S and old Nurse was 5.45 M/S.
If you actually read what my math said then you shouldn't be suggesting otherwise.
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I will take a deeper look into it later again. I was reading yours while I was on the go.
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I was already more efficient to only blink once while patrolling, and any nurse would tell you that. The second blink only is used on offensive actions, and that is what was slightly nerfed, the amount of times you could miss a lethal blink
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@Bravo0413 Nurse is only one part of the game. The disconnect issue isn't just related to the Nurse.
The feeling of their gaming experience being ruined is why people are disconnecting. Having no punishments only exacerbates the problem.
I don't want to derail this discussion into a disconnecting thread, so I'm gonna leave that as it is.
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Great post. Well done!
On base kit nerf i am still against it though do with the addons what ever but leave the base kit alone^^
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a large percent of her skill cap was removed
How making the use of a power requiring more tactical thought instead of mindless spam reduces the skillcap? To me it would increase it.
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These kind of ppl disconnects when facing any killers that are strong (Like billy, spirit), even those who play well with weaker killers
Isn't it unhealthy that they only face killers that can be bullied?
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Scott Steiner math.
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@OmegaXII yeah people want to cherry pick their matches... That has been happening since the beginning of the game.
BHVR doesn't really punish players for disconnecting. With no punishments, people can freely do what they wish, for the most part. The current DC punishments only hurt those who are habitual disconnecters, but not the casual disconnecter.
However, once punishments do come in, and the root causes that helped start the whole disconnecting issues aren't dealt with. Do you think that will be healthy for the game?
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Even in the OPs post, they mention that it won't really affect the casual/new Nurse players. Only those who are considered "GOD LIKE" when playing Nurse.
The OPs post is all complaining about the Nurse Nerf, but at the same time justifying why it needed to be done.
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Not really. Imagine if billy had a cooldown. He wouldn't be able to close the gap with a good survivor and then use his chainsaw again before they got to a loop, for example. Same deal with nurse, gets close to survivor, then the survivor gets half way across the map before she has to attempt a long range hit again
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The skillful element of Nurse is being able to predict movement and blink there for the hit/down. The problem with this change is that it severely limits her ability to efficiently travel the map to look for other survivors. Base blink has pretty short range, so it usually takes two to get to another gen after a hook. But if you use 2, you then have none when you get there, which gives the survivor a massive head-start - and could potentially allow them to not even be within her blink range- this means she has low incentive to leave a hook.
Why would I, as a Nurse player, want to now go far from a hook? It’s a much better idea to stay close and wait for survivors to approach. As a previous poster said, this change just limits what you can do with her. It doesn’t require more skill.
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I think doing the blank math is kinda overrated as an argument. Especially if we are only looking at the potential movement speed of nurse on a straight line compared to a survivor. In normal chases player movement is limited by the map/objects etc, which makes the situations tricky or interesting.
Besides that even though Nurse moves during her fatigue and can move while charging her blink, it's very unlikely that this limited movement is useable for catching up. During fatigue she can't see the survivor, maybe hear them a bit. But it even a "god nurse" player won't likely be able to use the fatigue movement perfectly. That is fine. That's how things are supposed to be. And while nurse players move when charging their blink, it's a different kind of movement, which is more done to support the aiming etc.
That's why I think that any comparison isn't perfect and we should focus on general game feel and ingame situations etc. And I personally think, that the cooldown just doesn't fit. It destroys the game feel and fluidity of the killer. And it is unnatural to have two cooldowns in parallel(fatigue/power bar). For me it's another case of the devs overthinking things like recent killer designs.
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While your math is correct you are only taking one cycle into account. The differences in you time and m/s is due to adding distance and time to the end of PTB Nurse for cool down. Otherwise the times and m/s would be the same.
The 2 blink PTB Nurse can go 57.9 meters in 11.9 seconds.
The 2 blink Live Nurse in the same 11.9 seconds can travel 70.2 meters. Because the 3.5 seconds of cool down could be used to charge a full blink (2s) and travel 20 meters (1.5s).
Unfortunately maps are not designed in large straight open lines. While the Nurse can travel in straight lines while blinking she can only walk the same path as any other killer @ 3.85.
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