Tru3Ta1ent speaks the TRUTH

@Orion said:

@Tsulan said:

@Orion said:

@Tsulan said:
Why is NOED considered "rewarding failure"? Game is not finished until you see the point screen.
I mean there are perks specifically for the endgame like Remember Me and Blood Warden.

Because otherwise Survivors would have to admit that NOED even triggering is their fault, and that late-game builds don't exist.

Oh damn, you are right.

Indeed. When I pointed out that all of the Nightmare's perks are late-game in another thread, all I got in response was a dodge, claiming that he's "more effective" with such and such build, despite the fact that I was only referring to his perks and not his gameplay (since perks are teachable and all, referring to so and so character's perks is literally just referring to the perks).

I would love it, if Blood Warden was activatable by pressing a button. Not by hooking someone after the gate has been opened. Punish teabaggers at the exit gate would become my new hobby.

Populism in it's natural habitat

X said so, it means it's true! he's the only one who spoke out!

1) you need to listen to qualified experts. Not randos who guess, but those that did math and know exactly all corner cases AND inner mechanics of the game. Thank god right now the dude is working on fixing issues. There are simply too many for him to fix in one go
2) you should have your own opinion
3) he's NOT the only one who spoke out, he just does it louder (covering more ears) than others.

ps: NOED rewards survivor mistakes. DS rewards survivor mistakes. Kinda makes you think

NOED, Ruin, etc.. Are the reason why I run Small Game. There are counterplays to hex perks. You just have to stop with the 'Bwohohoo, but it's a badd-o perk-u daze!' stuff and just start, you know, destroying all totems before doing all gens? Survivors want to gen rush. And the majority of Hexes are made exactly to counter that.
DS is not exactly fair, I'll give you that though. 4.8 second stun at worse that are uncounterable if you get the obsession. Unless, of course, you use Save the best for last OR enduring. OR, since DS is only once per match, catch someone and catch them again. But that's just going back to the drawing board now, is it?
Everything in a game is possibly counterable. The difficulty to do so, however, shows how OP something is. NOED is medium-difficulty: you have to waste precious gen-rush time to find the 5 unlit totem OR try your luck and hope the killer doesn't have NOED.
DS is medium-hard difficulty: The survivor has just a free get out of jail card, and even with both perks the normal non-obsessed survivors can still have a chance of escaping if you're near a pallet or a window.

Solution? Make DS escape the grasp ONLY to the obsession, and to the non-obsessed people give them continuous skill checks while wiggling once per match, to wiggle even faster. The flavor of the decisive strike is not lost, since the continuous mid-wiggling strikes (skill checks) can weaken the killer's grasp (wiggle meter) up to a point where they can escape it. It could be a good combo with boil over, and the obsession's DS will be replaced with the non-DS one, but with the stun of the same duration. So, the obsession will still have the upper hand but will have to reach 35% of the wiggle meter. It gives the killer a window to counter the perk.
As for NOED, I never thought that much of it until this thread. Surprisingly a big part of the community hates it. Weird by my end, but whatever. I can see people are mad at the instant-downing of survivors, so why not make it related to fit the flavor of the perk of survivors trying to escape from a blood-lusted killer? It could do so that if a survivor gets unhooked while the exit gates are powered, you gain the chance to.. Mori that survivor? Hinder him? Make so that he can't escape for X seconds? Give the killer bloodlust for X seconds? I never really thought of this perk that much, since it never gave me real problems with Small Game.
What are your thoughts on this? Do you have any real idea on how to improve perks you don't like, or are you just gonna whine about it while not giving any idea to the ones that have to change/rework it for you? How can you wish for something if you don't even know what to wish for? You would just delete the perks?

Edit: Grammar checks

@Orion said:

@Tsulan said:

@Orion said:

@Tsulan said:
Why is NOED considered "rewarding failure"? Game is not finished until you see the point screen.
I mean there are perks specifically for the endgame like Remember Me and Blood Warden.

Because otherwise Survivors would have to admit that NOED even triggering is their fault, and that late-game builds don't exist.

Oh damn, you are right.

Indeed. When I pointed out that all of the Nightmare's perks are late-game in another thread, all I got in response was a dodge, claiming that he's "more effective" with such and such build, despite the fact that I was only referring to his perks and not his gameplay (since perks are teachable and all, referring to so and so character's perks is literally just referring to the perks).

You're leaving out some critical stuff again like the fact you said one thing then said you meant something different. Then later on you changed your story again and said that what you said wasn't what you meant and you never said it. This despite you claiming 2 different things earlier.

@SovererignKing said:
Rewarding failure in the premise of not protecting and stopping Gen progress. “Who cares if they do the Gens? I’ve got NOED!” Just like DS “Who cares if I get found and caught, I’ve got DS!” 

Its the same premise that Survivors use to justify DS. “It’s the Killers fault for catching me. Should have chased someone else.” When we all know that’s a load of bullshit.

”LULZ should have broke the totems!” = “LULZ should have chased someone else!”

Late-game builds are exactly about letting the Survivors get closer to escaping while you become more powerful. That's not failure; that's strategy.

As for breaking the totems being equal to the Survivors' "idea" on how to counter DS, that's bullshit. Breaking totems guarantees NOED will not trigger, thus giving your team the upper hand. Chasing someone else will give the Survivors the advantage. Like all Survivor "ideas" on how to counter something, it's always bad for the Killer.

Visionmaker said:

I don't think NOED needs to be removed or nerfed... But it is definitely a crutch perk. It only rewards mistakes, even if it is good for cheesy strats.

I think overused meta perks need to be nerfed/changed, and I don't think NOED ranks that highly.

I'll explain why NOED isn't a crutch perk. I'm saying this to every person who thinks it's a crutch perk and not just you @Visionmaker!

1.) The killer is sacrificing 1 perk slot for a strong late game with instant downs so of course it's gonna be easy to go against a killer with less perks.
2.) The perk can be disabled before even activated which not any perk besides Huntress Lullaby has that weakness.
3.) NOED isn't DS, don't compare them two when DS has no easy counter and when NOED does.
4.) If NOED is a crutch then you minus well say Blood Warden is a crutch too since it blocks the exit gates and gives the killer a "free kill".
5.) NOED has been nerfed multiple amount of times, what's next?

PATCH NOTES:

NOED: Tier 3 no longer causes the exposed status effect on all survivor.

^ I'm calling it right now ^

6.) NOED is a strong alternative to ruin since it punishes gen rushing. If every survivor is on generators and not totems then your guaranteeing yourself a strong late game!

Overall the main reason why people think NOED is a crutch perk is because it's not fun for the survivor to get instant-downed. I would say for an rework... either give the killer 30% faster successful attack cool down or make NOED cause a BT bleed out timer instead of just going down instantly.

DS needs soon nerf, the trials are too fast to have more escapes.
Adrenaline needs changes it's too powerful.
NOED is a perk hex totem finisher, it can be countered if u do more than just repair.

There is a huge gap between the 2... you can say NOED is a crutch all you want the fact is it can be removed and it's on the survivors to remove it... DS is not removable and next to unavoidable if you're too far from a hook to juggle and the survivor is competent... the devs want killers to use noed simply because it's another reason they can use to slack on balancing the game..

I think that NOED makes endgame more tense, but it also has a habit of robbing winning survivors of their wins, and that's just not fun for the survivors. DS is annoying because its an escape from a down. I dont particularly like either perk.

@thesuicidefox said:

Snowballing isn't something that should be stopped. If a player/team is that good that they just wipe the floor with you then that's how it should go. You shouldn't get a boost because you got bodied. Imagine any sport that had a comeback mechanic. OMG Yankees lead Redsox 50-1, so last inning the Redsox get a bonus "homerun derby" round where they can score more points to catch up. See how awful that sounds? These mechanics are there to remove skill from the equation, which again isn't a bad thing if your goal is to have a non-competitive atmosphere. But DBD is competitive in nature, so these types of mechanics only ruin the experience. NOED/DS are both in this category, hence why they are two of the most despised perks in the game.

This is true but there is a problem with removing NOED from the game in this current state.

Games are just so fast for most of the killers. There are 2 ways to prevent this. Killers will either take the chance to run hex:ruin and hope that survivors won't find it in the first 10 seconds of the game so that they can have a little bit chance to win or they use NOED and get all of their kills at the end of the game.

If the devs can find a solution for more consistent game play and +8-10 min matches I am all for removing NOED. Right now, sometimes survivors take things slowly and killers can find enough time to do what they have to do, sometimes survivors ignore chests, totems and even other survivors on the hooks and gen rush the killer. Since most of the killers are not able to pressure gens, the game is at the hands of the survivors. NOED is one of the few counters against short matches.

Everything comes to balance of the game and killers like freddy, wraith, trapper needs a little bit help. NOED becomes really problematic if billies and nurses use it.

@thesuicidefox said:

@Delfador said:
Games are just so fast for most of the killers. There are 2 ways to prevent this. Killers will either take the chance to run hex:ruin and hope that survivors won't find it in the first 10 seconds of the game so that they can have a little bit chance to win or they use NOED and get all of their kills at the end of the game.

Again, I'm not saying the game doesn't need fixes in other places. What I am saying is that crutch perks are not the solution. They just ruin the experience, remove skill from the equation, and ultimately piss off the player base.

Furthermore, killers that don't get a single kill until endgame, even if the others rush gens, are flat out just bad killers. Besides the fact that you don't even need to kill people to pip as killer (it's almost laughable how easy it is to pip as killer with emblems), any decent killer will be able to catch/hook most survivors and get someone before end game. The problem is that majority of killers that use NOED aren't even that decent at the game, they literally rely on NOED to carry them to get kills. THAT is the problem, that bad killers are rewarded way more than they should be.

Although Nurse and NOED are too powerful, devs will not remove NOED or nerf nurse. NOED will shut up bad killers, and give them chances to play a game that is survivor sided, Nurse will shut up good players and give them the chance to annihilate survivors.

This is why these threads will not change anything tbh. It is a tactic. Instead of trying to fix core issues, Devs have chosen to give multiple very powerful resources like NOED, DS, bloodlust to both sides. After a little nerf to exhaustion, they got crap reviews from survivors. Just imagine what will happen if they touch bloodlust, DS, NOED etc.

If they remove NOED before fixing other issues, it will have a really bad impact on the game. That is all I am saying. These suggestions will not change anything.

thesuicidefox said:

@Tsulan said:
So letting survivors make points and pip is now failure.

Letting the other side win is a failure. You shouldn't just let it happen, you should be trying to kill people. Also, most bad killers don't "let" it happen, it happens because they are bad, hence they failed. NOED rewards failure as much as DS does.

A strategy for end game should involve some skill on the killers part. Hence why Remember Me and Blood Warden aren't crutch perks because they require you to do something for them to have an affect. NOED doesn't, it just requires you fail, making it a comeback mechanic and a crutch. If your strategy is "let them win" then you shouldn't be rewarded for that. If your strategy is "prepare for end game" that is something to reward.

NOED requires the killer to track down, chase, and hit the survivors he supposedly didn't hit during the whole match.

DS requires the survivor to fail at hiding, fail at juking but to hit a skill check to get a free out of jail card.

Ohh and the way the devs want this game to be played, is spending as much time as possible in a match. 4k with 5 gens? A black pip.

Nickenzie said:

Visionmaker said:

I don't think NOED needs to be removed or nerfed... But it is definitely a crutch perk. It only rewards mistakes, even if it is good for cheesy strats.

I think overused meta perks need to be nerfed/changed, and I don't think NOED ranks that highly.

I'll explain why NOED isn't a crutch perk. I'm saying this to every person who thinks it's a crutch perk and not just you @Visionmaker!

4.) If NOED is a crutch then you minus well say Blood Warden is a crutch too since it blocks the exit gates and gives the killer a "free kill".

6.) NOED is a strong alternative to ruin since it punishes gen rushing. If every survivor is on generators and not totems then your guaranteeing yourself a strong late game!

Overall the main reason why people think NOED is a crutch perk is because it's not fun for the survivor to get instantdowned.

Actually, I call NOED a crutch perk because it activates with zero input from the killer (easy to use), and gives a strong boost for essentially losing most of the game. 

A crutch perk doesn't mean it is without counters. Like its name implies, a crutch helps a lesser player achieve more for little to no input. NOED doesn't require any skill (aside from protecting one totem) to utilize and the benefits reaped are tremendous compared to other perks.

Unlike Blood Warden, which rewards the killer for catching their prey last minute with precise timing, NOED has no such condition. Also, the benefits of Blood Warden are far outweighed by NOED, on a timer.

It is indeed an alternative to Ruin, as it demands survivors to cleanse each and every totem lest they face the severe penalties, and guarantees a collective few minutes of time off generators even if inactive.

It's less about being unfun, it's about skill/input to benefit ratio. I personally like NOED, but I think it would be disingeuous for me to not call it as the crutch it is.

It doesn't really matter how often or how much something is nerfed either. It's done being nerfed when its effectiveness is aligned with other perks, not when x number of nerf patches is met. Ex: just because survivors have been nerfed recently doesn't mean I think they shouldn't be nerfed any further.

And just because DS is more egregious of a crutch perk, doesn't mean NOED is less of a crutch. They're both crutches. DS should go first, of course, but NOED should be looked at also since it runs under the same principles. Granted, only if it's overused.

I dont agree with him, and it's not just me being a bad killer.  DS, NOED, Nurse, they're all just symptoms of the problems in this game.  Lack of time and lack of lasting consequences drive all the band-aids this game has.  Most of the "crutches" either wouldn't exist or would have far less impact on a match if it wasn't for the root issues. 

You can start fixing it by making being injured actually affect your medkit. (Slows your actions speed greatly) and limiting self-healing to only medkits. With 2 hits and 3 hooks available, there is no reason for injured status to simply be an animation change with some extra tracking attached.  Obviously, several perks would need reworking, and many more can be altered to mitigate some of the penalties from injured.

@Runiver said:

@PigNRun said:
Well, and if the killer is hard camping, what is stopping survivors from doing both totems and generators? Plenty enough time for everything.

You cannot do it if he catches someone early, especially if he has Ruin.
5 totems + 5 gens is just not doable within' 2mins as 3 players.

Throw in a Doctor/Billy/Huntress and it's not feasible especially on wide open maps and or where gens are too close together.

@PigNRun said:
Runiver said:

@PigNRun said:

Well, and if the killer is hard camping, what is stopping survivors from doing both totems and generators? Plenty enough time for everything.

You cannot do it if he catches someone early, especially if he has Ruin.

5 totems + 5 gens is just not doable within' 2mins as 3 players.

Then dont do generators too fast. Its really simple. :P
Sucks if you are caught first, but if its a bad killer, it was just luck the first time, and he wont down any other survivors before generators are done and all totems cleansed. If its a good killer, he will down others and deserves the kills.

If NOED is the cause of your demise, its only because Survivors took the risk and failed.

This. You survivors wanna gen rush and not break any dull totems? Then you have no right to complain about getting owned by NOED. You've made your bed now lie in it.

You could get rid of every single perk in the game and it won't fix anything.
The core gameplay aswell as the map design is flawed.

The time pressure on the killer is what make the mobile killer (nurse and hillbilly) god tier.
But on the other end doing gens is boring and adding more time to them will enrage a lot of people, they mentionned adding more objectif but when? since it's not planned for next patch. 3 month? 6 month? 1 year?

Some maps have way to much safe pallet other, mainly the coldwinfarm map have pretty much none.
Most "LOS breaker" have holes in them making the juke possibility of said LOS breaker close to none for both side.

Stealth as litle to no value because it isn't rewarded, not only bp wise but also emblem wise since someone that get into chase will tend to have a better evader emblem that someone that managed to not get spotted once.
the fact that a semi decent survivor can hold a semi decent killer long enought for 2 or 3 gen will raking a ######### tonne of bp doesn't help make stealth attractive.

The dev have let the meta stall on both side for way to long.

The dev want to have tournament and a leader board, despite the fact that the dev don't seem to want to balance the game like a competitive one by fear of making casual and new player go away.

The dev want to buff solo survivor to be on par with swf to be able to buff killer after wich is fine on paper but how are they going to buff them?
How are they going to buff killer to deal with survivor that will soon get a mountain of free information making them close to be omniscient.
Like don't people realise how powerfull of a tool it is just to know that another survivor is currently being chased?
Or that the killer is still close by or simply showing wich way the killer is heading with the soon (maybe) to be free kindred?