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Nerf Survivors by Buffing Them: A Paradoxical Solution

Dead by Daylight is a game that is notoriously hard to balance as compared to other games. Most competitive games are symmetrical, which means that each team has the same or similar goals and tools. This type of symmetrical game is fairly easy to balance, because anything that's super-strong or super-weak can still be utilized by the other side. And if anything is overly strong, it can be nerfed a little, or the inverse for anything overly weak. And this methodology is fine for balancing symmetrical games, and it's a fairly foolproof system, but Dead by Daylight doesn't work like that. DBD is an asymmetrical game. This means that the two sides don't have similar goals or tools, in fact, those goals and tools conflict with each other.

Now, there are loads of asymmetrical games out there that can be well balanced. In those such games, the sides may be different, but they usually pivot around one main goal. Picture a good, well-balanced asymmetrical game, and break it down into its most basic components. (I used CS:GO while making this analogy, even if I haven't played much of it.). One team is trying to stop the other team from accomplishing their goal, and each side contributes to this sort of push-and-pull dynamic of this other team from reaching the "goal", effectively making the game a big complicated match of Tug O' War. And as long as neither team is put at an immediate disadvantage, as in, one team's goal is harder to achieve than the other's, or one team has better tools than the other team, the game should be pretty easy to balance.

Now right off the bat, DBD fails one of these criteria. Survivors, in most situations, have more tools than Killers do (A case could be made for the opposite, but it doesn't matter too much in this context. You'll see why later. Also, this ideology also made for a much more interesting title.). Putting the killer in a disadvantaged state right out of the gate has some very clear balancing issues that should have been rectified a long time ago, but there's a good reason why they haven't quite yet. The reason is that DBD is not a two-sided game. There are actually three teams that must be accounted for. They are:

  • The Killer
  • Solo Survivor (w/o SWF)
  • Teamed Survivor (SWF)

Balancing an asymmetrical game with three different teams is a monumental task. Imagine CS:GO but without any in-game voice chat. Suddenly, the two teams from before have split into four (Hey, that rhymed!) once external voice-messaging services (Usually Discord) come into play. Communication is a massive tool in any team-based game that must be accounted for. For survivors, SWF has the potential to act as entirely separate perk slots, most of which reflecting aura-reading perks such as Bond or Kindred. Communication also allows the ability to significantly enhance the power of existing perks like Object of Obsession, Distortion or Adrenaline. Not to mention countless other benefits.

So SWF is really strong. Given the ideology discussed earlier, the obvious solution is to just nerf SWF. But this can't really be done without nerfing survivor as a whole, and this causes a problem. Because whenever SWF is nerfed, the much weaker solo survivor would get nerfed as well. So changing one side or the other would tip the scales much more than intended, making it basically impossible to make both sides happy.

Let's go back to the CS:GO example. How did we suddenly tear this game apart from being a relatively simple 2-team game, to the balancing nightmare that is 4 asymmetrical teams? We stripped each team of their communication between their teammates. But once we give these teams their communication back, the game becomes a lot easier to balance, because there are less details to worry about. Changing one team doesn't have a bunch of consequences down the line, because the idea of a "sub-team" has just vanished.

Regardless of whether or not you think survivors are OP, killers are OP, no one is OP, it doesn't matter. Merging solo survivors and SWF survivors into one team would make the game much easier to balance down the line. If you think that survivors are too strong, suddenly we can just nerf the tools that survivors have much more smoothly. If you think they're too weak, they can be buffed without blowing anything out of proportion.

Not to mention that this change would make solo survivor much more enjoyable. Seeing that your teammates (Or even the killer, if a separate voice channel could be added so that the opposing sides could speak to eachother) are more than just pixels moving on a screen is humanizing. It's something that we frequently forget about while we play this game, that there's someone else on the side of the screen. Someone who may have started playing last week, or may have started playing on release day. It really is a wholesome thought, and if not for the balance changes, think of how it would completely revamp the community (Albeit, for better or for worse. Only time would tell.).

Keep in mind that this isn't a perfect solution. Teammates without access to microphones, the skill gap between older and newer players, and many other factors can still throw the balance of this game out the window. There are a lot of factors that make DBD really difficult to balance, but this change would certainly help fix the problem.

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Thanks for reading! I'm totally open for discussion in the comments. Feel free to share this idea around if it piqued your interest, and keep in mind that I'll be editing this as I get more feedback. <3

Comments

  • Tisfine
    Tisfine Member Posts: 148
    edited January 2020

    Or you change the conditions when you're against a 3-4 man teams. Slap some boost for the killer when the game detects its a full party and you're golden.

    There's literally no reason to balance either teams around SWF and just serves to disrupt everything, Treat it as a separate entity. When the game is balanced for the most part when a team of randoms is against a killer.

    Giving in game microphone access to everyone would destroy the killer permanently, A killer has to work with the assumption that he could disrupt information that's getting thrown around the game. This is not CSGO, This is a 1 v 4 game, Mate.

  • NoShinyPony
    NoShinyPony Member Posts: 4,570

    Can you give us a tl;dr?

  • Hailoh
    Hailoh Member Posts: 83

    I. I never believed in the theory of buffing the killer when a SWF is in the match. The first problem is that the type of buff would have to be really unorthodox to reasonably work, because few things would be universal for most killers. You could buff movement speed, but that's not really going to help a killer like the Nurse. You could reduce power cooldown time, but how would that help the Trapper? You could let the killer see every survivor's aura at any given moment, but then aura reading perks would be near-useless. Not to mention that once you buff a killer too much, it could have repercussions on the length of chases, and if the chases are too short, then what's the point in having them? But let's just say you find the best "boost" to give the killer. This certainly stops fully-optimal SWF in their tracks, but this severely hinders SWF that are just trying to have some plain fun. The purple ranks that brought their new friend who just got the game. The full Head-On squad. The group of people who are trying to win, but aren't spewing commands at eachother the whole match. This change would make casual SWF a thing of the past, and force survivors into a sweaty, competitive mess.

    II. There's actually a good reason to balance around SWF. Like I said earlier, as it currently stands, reasonably changing SWF requires changing survivors as a whole, which would inadvertently change solo survivor.

    III. Balancing the game around randoms is good for a casual game, but squashes any competitive potential into the ground. Tournaments and ESports wouldn't really be an option with this mentality, and that's not good for the game's growth. At least in my eyes, this would make the game a lot more boring. There should always be the option to play casually OR competitively. Having one or the other isn't enough.

    IV. I sort of agree, and I sort of disagree. In survivor's current state, yes. Giving every survivor the ability to communicate with one another would give them a huge, undeniable advantage, and would make the game really difficult for the killer. But I wrote this with the mindset that survivors would get nerfed overall, with the compensation of having communication. These nerfs would have less impact on solo survivor, but more impact on SWF (Which is what we're after.). The devs could increase repair time, reduce the number of pallets on the map, really anything. That's not my place to say, I'm not trying to make the point of what that nerf would be, as that's a completely different post that I am nowhere near qualified to create.

  • Hailoh
    Hailoh Member Posts: 83

    Hey, that means I did my job right! I usually make these posts too short lol

    TL;DR: Giving all survivors in-game voice chat would make it easier to balance the game, as we'd be dealing with two teams as opposed to three.

  • Sonzaishinai
    Sonzaishinai Member Posts: 7,976

    The tl,dr is bassicly that if we gave every survivor voice coms the game would be easier to balance

  • Sonzaishinai
    Sonzaishinai Member Posts: 7,976

    While it is true that in theory it would be easier to balance, in practise it would solve nothing

    I know i would instantly disable being able to voicecom with other people and plenty of others would too

    Not to even mention having to hear toxic people insult you, this game is suppose to be a horror game and hearing other people talk completly destroys what little horror athmosphere there is left

    I would disable it and i can guess plenty of other people would too, and then we are back at square one

  • Hailoh
    Hailoh Member Posts: 83

    This was something I thought about a lot when I was writing this. Obviously there would need to be an option to disable this feature (Streamers wouldn't want people just screeching on their streams, for example. Not to mention the previous points you brought up.).

    Here's the little bit of solace that I can provide:

    1. I've been in a lot of toxic games, games that are much worse than this one. People who are toxic in voice chat are far fewer than those who are toxic through their keyboard (i.e.: Typing or gameplay). And regardless, this could still be solved by either disabling survivor-killer communication, or not implementing it at all.
    2. Don't get me wrong. I really want this game to be a horror game. But realistically, if this game were to be a horror game, it would have to do a complete 180 and change a LOT. And a lot of those changes would come at the cost of balance. And in my eyes, I'd take a well balanced/non-scary game over a poorly balanced/scary game any day of the week. The former has a lot of longevity, and a lot of opportunities to grow. The latter is fun for a couple hours, but it will get really old once you get farther into the game. And no one wants to spend $20+ on a game that's fun for a couple of hours.
    3. I doubt that a majority of people would have this feature permanently turned off. And if they do, and chose to give themselves that handicap, then more power to them. But only time would tell.

    Even given these points, I do see what you said as being completely valid.

  • Sonzaishinai
    Sonzaishinai Member Posts: 7,976

    The thing is that what you propose is technicly already possible, the minute before a match is enough time to share each others discord if you really want to

    I do agree that this game is a balancing nightmare because of their being 3 teams and that's a good thought process to have

    The solution just isn't that simple i'm afraid

  • Hailoh
    Hailoh Member Posts: 83

    This is a good theoretical thought, but I have never seen people share discords in public chats in a little over 800 hours of playtime (Let's say 650 of that was survivor).

    I agree that the solution is much more complex than just giving all survivors communication, but I think that this, along with many other things, is a step in the right direction. In-Game VC: Part of a Balanced Breakfast!

  • Sonzaishinai
    Sonzaishinai Member Posts: 7,976

    Correct, i have also never seen anybody share discord. Biggest reason i think is that people just don't want to

    Now don't get me wrong, i'm not against the idea. Making voicecoms more available for people who want to play this way is a great idea.

    I'm just saying it wouldn't really fix the problem your trying to fix

    Could be a step in the right direction though that's true

  • Tisfine
    Tisfine Member Posts: 148

    I. Sorry, but 3-4 man rates are low. Why we have to balance the majority of players to an unfair group is even more of a no to me. I'll take buffing the killer against SWF over changing the game's entire balance because of the minority.

    Buff aren't exclusive to changing numbers in Killer mechanics it could be something else. Maybe a second offering with it's own special buffs for the killer to personally choose from. Be it, Sixth gen, A fifth perk, More bloodpoints to compensate for going against these guys. That's just an idea on top of my head, Not my job to think of fixes for the game but I can say that they should think of a different balance when a killer goes against a 3-4 Man.

    Note that I said 3-4 man because anything below that number is perfectly fine and doesn't deserve any buffs for the killer. I also don't care if you're having fun, I highly doubt you keep your lips closed for information when the team needs it no? When you have communication you're inevitably going to use it to spread information to the rest of the gang.


    II. Again as I mentioned. Why change everyone when the game at it's current state IS balanced for the most part. The balance assumes that there is no communication for the survivors. You literally have to rework most of the game's balance just because of a low percentage in the player base.

    III.Game is not Esport material. You know what happened to a game that's a 1 v 4 that the devs thought their game was Esport material? It died. That's evolve. Dead by daylight is casual competitive, You can have competitive aspects to it but thinking its going to be up there with actual Competitive games like Dota 2 or whatever is hilarious. When the game has serious balance issues with SWF. It's not gonna work.

    IV. So what nerf are you suggesting? Assuming communication gets handed to everyone. What are you gonna suggest to make it even for the killer? There's only so much you could do with the game vanilla. You would have to rework the game from the ground up so that the entire game is built around communication in mind which is the exact opposite of the current state of DBD.

  • JawsIsTheNextKiller
    JawsIsTheNextKiller Member Posts: 3,376

    One thing I love about the solo survivor experience is the atmosphere. The survivor side was designed to make you feel a bit scared, not knowing who the killer is, where the killer is and what is going on at the other side of the map and to ultimately feel that you probably won't escape.

    Playing as part of an SWF feels like a lesser game, it loses the atmosphere, turning it into an (admittedly fun) party game. Being part of a coordinated team where you are probably going to win seems wrong to me. I am glad it is not the default.

  • Hailoh
    Hailoh Member Posts: 83

    I. Buffing the killer against SWF is my whole point. Right now, you can't change SWF without changing solo survivor as well (Unless you give the killer buffs depending on whether or not a SWF is in the group, but I've touched on that before and don't plan on touching on it again. TL;DR: Assuming an optimal SWF is too broad of an assumption to make.). Making every team a pseudo-SWF would make balancing the game a lot more linear, instead of having to do backwards changes to change SWF OR Solo Survivor without changing both. This one change would open the door to killer and survivor balancing without having to worry about the difference between solo survivor and SWF.

    II. First things first, this game is not balanced. There are certain maps, perks, killers, items and addons that are all in desperate need for balancing (Put a Bubba against 4 Commodious toolboxes on Ormond and tell me that's balanced. It's just not.). But even assuming it is, SWF still needs to be taken into account. Even though SWF is a minority, they are a recognizable minority. I've always believed in balancing around all points of a feature. That includes its weakest, its average, and most importantly, its strongest. If you got 3 competent friends with good items and good perks, and you had a 99% chance of winning that game, then what's the point of playing in the first place? It's frustrating for the killer. It gets old for the survivors. That's how a game dies, when one team has the ability to effectively secure a win, while the other team has no tools to stop it. That's true for many things in this game, and optimal SWF is one of them.

    III. DBD is certainly not ESports material in its current state, but who's to say it can't be? Who's to say that players shouldn't be able to go head to head with one another to see who can come out on top? Who's to say that we can't choose the best killer players in the entire game, the best survivors, the best survivor teams? I have a competitive mindset, and I dream of this kind of stuff. I know I'm not the only one out there.

    IV. Well, the first thing that comes to mind is to nerf survivor-sided maps. Some maps are too big and take too long to patrol (Mother's Dwelling comes to mind. Rotten Fields as well.), some maps have too many safe pallets (Ormond, Blood Lodge), some maps are way too good for immersion (Yamaoka, Swamp.), etc.. Another idea is to nerf certain items that survivors have at their disposal, like keys and toolboxes (Perhaps in compensation for buffing things like Maps and Medkits?). You could also increase the amount of time it takes to repair a generator, have more consequences for staying injured vs. healing, and more things alone those lines. The game doesn't need to be completely rebalanced around communication, because communication (While strong) would just be another feature. Sure, some serious nerfs would need to happen in exchange for this, but not on a scale that's completely unreasonable.

    [I love your name btw. lol.]

    I also think that players should have the option to toggle this feature on and off, precisely for people like you who value atmosphere over balance (Which is perfectly reasonable, as I think that both are important. Personally I value the latter, but it's just personal preference.).

  • pjfontillas
    pjfontillas Member Posts: 1
    edited January 2020

    This is a long - and good - analysis just to say we should have voice chat in-game. Everyone is SWF from a communication POV. Prefer solo play? Sure, stay quiet. So long as it's not 1v1v1v1v1 instead of 1v4. But that solution would kill perks like Bond. Or at least relegate it to a training wheel perk.

  • Hailoh
    Hailoh Member Posts: 83

    This was something I thought about. Aura reading perks would essentially be slammed into the dirt if this change were to take place, and they would all need a pretty good rework.

  • Tisfine
    Tisfine Member Posts: 148

    I. You can with my suggestion. As I said no need to change everything to be in lined with the Minority. The game is simply not built that way.

    II. I was under the impression we're talking about Survivor and communication? Yes. Map balance is an entirely new discussion altogether. Has no correlation with Information via communication or changing how Survivor works by giving them SWF level of information. Yet if we put a Killer in a regularly sized map that doesn't require half a gen to walk from end to another like Red forest against a team of randoms you would see that the interaction with the killer and survivor is actually balanced with the killers could disrupt information pretty often.

    III. Yes, you're not the only one. There is a 'tournament' scene going on and it's genuinely one of the most hilarious thing I've ever seen. It's not the type of tournament you're imagining.

  • Raven014
    Raven014 Member Posts: 4,188

    It doesn't matter, especially on console as people will just party up in their own groups instead of just trusting on other survivors having coms.

  • csandman1977
    csandman1977 Member Posts: 2,358

    I absolutely agree that in game comms is a great STEP towards finding a better balanced game.

    Thing is, i made a post about how to encourage better teamwork in this game. I was told by at least half the responses and and @peanits that this isn't a team game. This is supposed to be 4 solo survivors working towards a common goal. They are under no obligation to give a damn about their nonteamates.

    And i think that the whole mindset is what makes swf survival rates better, they are all an actual team.

    Adding comms won't make people less selfish or more selfless. Most likely.