What WOULD make you be ok with the ruin rework?

Remove the devs who thought it was a good idea to rework Ruin without at least reworking California sized maps first, or at the same time.

Seriously, you have these massive maps, and depending on spawn, you can spend a gens time worth just getting from one end to the other. If maps were smaller, more well designed, I could see where Ruin wouldn't be as necessary. But no, that's not how things are right now.

I'd also remove the current Hex form, just make it a perk. Maybe tone it down to 1.5 instead of 2 at max, but still. Hex totems don't last into late game. Whoever thought of making Ruin into a LATE game hex perk is delusional, or doesn't actually play higher tiered matches.

I think most of the frustration people are feeling isn't actually about Ruin at all. Many of the posts are symptomatic of mechanics and design choices. I don't run Ruin anymore, so that isn't as big of a deal to me. Ruin was a bandaid over a problem. Reworking it doesn't change the problem: if survivors spread out and actually do gens, they should win almost every time. It's just my opinion of course, but the game seems balanced around suboptimal survivor play, and it's jarring when you run into optimal survivors on comms. You just feel helpless. You can end chases quickly and it just won't matter. And due to the asymmetry, it won't feel like you got outplayed, because the two roles aren't really doing the same thing. One side is holding M1. Not trying to minimize the survivor role, I'm just trying to explain how it feels at times.

This is why I suggest they all be unlit. They were supposed to be another Survivor objective, but as they stand now, it's too easy to just cleanse the one that's bothering you and call it a day. Good Survivors will cleanse them all throughout the match, just to prevent NOED, but if you don't know which one is the Hex, this slows the game down a bit without changing anything else.

I don't want to see gens take more time to complete, that gets boring AF. But giving a Killer more time in the early game, Survivors looking for totems to cleanse instead of just searching for that one that shines like a neon billboard, will make the game more balanced than any tweaking of a single Perk.

The reason so many use Ruin, at high ranks at least, is to get the little extra pressure it affords them. No great skillcheck bonuses, potential regression for failed greats, and it's also a bit of a placebo. I know I have issues if I'm tag-teaming a gen and Ruin is up, I will fail skillchecks looking to hit that great. But put me solo on a gen, and I can power through it without an issue, maybe adding 10-15 seconds or so to it from goods.

I'd even go so far as to add another 1 or 2 totems to the match itself. 5 is pretty shallow for a totem pool on some of the larger maps. Make it 6 or 7, make them unlit, and then you might have a good balance with the new Ruin.

Maybe make it activate after 2 or 3 gens are completed?

Move it to you have to kick it instead of just ALL gens not being worked on, turn it into a perk at that point. That would give it better Synergy with things like pop and Overcharge.

We don't need MORE gen regress/slowdown perks stacking than we already have. The games get pretty boring as is.

Here is my idea how it could work:

Working alone on a Gen: 2 Skill Checks appear in one circle. (No Great Skillchecks involved)

2 or more Survivors: 3 Skillchecks in one circle.

(If someone remembers the Game Shadow Hearts, the Combat System works with multiple Skillchecks in one circle, this is where i got the idea from)

Hitting just one Skillcheck will give the Regress from Ruin, like it is now.

This forces Survivor to split up, if they are not confident with the Skill Checks.

Smaller maps.

Remove the hex/totem part of new Ruin.

Maybe limit gen speed stacking with perks/toolboxes.

For example no Prove Thyself and Resilience combined with a Commodious that has instructions and socket swivels.

A second survivor objective with a cool reward like the Hallowed Blight flowers. Spread something across the map like that.

What if you had could run across the map and drink water to cure exhaustion? What if you had to take a long way around a map due to an environmental hazard like a poison gas? What if you could interact with the map say find/hack a computer to make passing through safer?

There are so many ways to make things take longer without them feeling tacked on. It would just require going outside of DbDs current simplicity. @SenzuDuck

These kind of changes would make ruin being different not a big deal to anyone because less focus is on gens.

Everyone here pretty much commented my thoughts :) I would say the power toolboxes have or maybe reduce some map sizes.

I apologize, my annoyance at this whole cluster duck has me on edge.

There are issues that needed to be looked at and resolved, before or at the same time, as the Ruin change. Changing it now, and leaving the previous issues unresolved, is just going to promote even more toxicity.

New Ruin shouldn't be a Hex. It's strong when used right, yes, but considering map size, and how quick it's destroyed most of the time, it'll rarely make it into the late game, as the patch notes imply. And even if it does, what's the point? Survivors bring their toolboxes and perks, combined with the map size, one decent chase and two gens pop. Unless you manage a three gen, New Ruin won't do its job.

Then comes Surveillance. A good combo, but you need a second perk to make the first worthwhile? A perk should stand on its own, not have to rely on a synergy with another to make it worth its time.

My point is, either decrease map size in order to justify New Ruin as a Hex, or keep map size and remove the Hex. With smaller maps, low tiered killers could patrol more effectively, and New Ruin's mojo could be more beneficial. With the current map size, there will be cases where New Ruin will be destroyed before a killer can even walk across the map. No point. Remove the Hex, decrease the effect from 200% to, say, 175/150%, just so it's not stronger than other perks.

@Riveate I appreciate your answer and again, your feedback makes sense. It just needed a little improvement on the delivery. 😊

I've always said the simplest change to the core gameplay of DbD is all that would be necessary to help killers of all types gain/maintain gen pressure:

Kicking/starting gen regression automatically takes 10% off of a gens progress before regular regression begins.

This would apply to all killers by default, and for obvious reasons it would call for a few small adjustments to existing perks, like Pop goes the Weasel only applying a 15% reduction to gen progress that gets added onto the new default 10% loss, but overall what does this change do?

1. Lower mobility killers can now hold off a gens completion better, and thus have more stalling power and pressure.
2. No more Tap and Run tactics from survivors attempting to stop a gens regression because that only gives the killers a free pass to knock off another 10%.
3. Encourages survivors to employ more distraction tactics to draw the killer away, instead of looping around a regressing gen.
4. Puts kicking gens on par with failing a skill check.
5. Makes perks like Surge, Dying Light, and Thanatophobia more valuable as tools for stalling gen completion for all killers.
6. New Ruin actually earns its Hex Status as an OP but destroyable perk by hitting it with that 10% to kick off the 200% regression speed every time a survivor leaves a gen.

A killer attempting to defend a single generator can see it completed in front of them by a team of 2 survivors because no matter how many times they kick it, or how effective they are at pushing survivors off of it, unless survivors don't touch it for 32 seconds, it's not going to lose even 10% of its progress. That's how much time it represents to a killer, 10% = 32 seconds at normal regression speed, whereas a lone survivor without tools to increase their repair rate can fix that 10% loss in only 10 seconds. Ruin brings killers closer to that by dropping 10% every 16 seconds instead of 32, but its a Hex and won't last to the late game its been redesigned for.

Therein lies the primary flaw in the logic behind Ruin's rework: Its designed to be better in the late game! No killer players ever take a Hex Perk into a trial expecting it to last more than 2 minutes at best. The moment survivors are notified of any Hex perk working against them, they find and destroy it before it can do any major damage. The new Ruin will be treated no differently because not only are they notified of its existence, its also a glowing 1500 BP totem that have a poor history of being hidden well enough to last. I've had games where I've brought in Thrill of the Hunt alone just to see how fast it dies, and like all Hex perks, it hardly ever lasts more than 2 minutes. Survivors are never going to see a Hex totem and then Choose to let it stay active until they feel they need to cleanse it... if its lit, it dies.

In Ruins new state, the 200% regression speed is still nowhere near to being on par with how fast survivors can repair generators, much less when they have Cooperative actions, Toolboxes, Add-ons and Perks that increase their repair rates dramatically. Keeping pressure on generators is always a losing battle for the killer because unless they are downing/hooking every survivor they encounter and getting back to the generators to keep them regressing, every 20-25 seconds, there's no way the average killer can compete against the survivors repair speed, even with all the right tools.

By having generators begin regression with an immediate 10% loss, all killers get a better chance at applying adequate pressure in early, mid, and late game. Sure it only buys them 10 seconds or less on a generator that's near completion, but the killers experience is always a struggle against time, and that 10 seconds may be all the leniency a killer needs to turn a game around.

If this proposed change were implemented, I feel that everyone would've been just fine with the upcoming change to Ruin.

Honestly just work on the early game.

I think map size would be the best way to look at it.

Once you start getting downs the game slows down. That`s pressure 101, and that's why early game slowdown perks are the most used. Because perks like Pop and Thanatophobia only start working when you're already applying pressure.

If the killers' earlygame were better no one would even need Ruin. I feel like either making some maps smaller or fixing spawns so that survivors don't spawn on the edge of maps often would make it ok.

I know the importance of the early game can be overrated sometimes (it's entirely possible to stomp a game after a horrible early game) but it feels awful to have to concede gens or just have them pop before you can phisically get there.

The one thing that needs to happen is that the devs need to get out there and make it clear that they understand the problems of the killers.

The optics aren't great, strong killers like spirit and nurse got nerved and now they nerv a perk used by 80% off red ranks, without showing an understanding why it was used so commonly. The anouncement of the doc rework only talks about how it is to play against, not as him.

Behaviar has two options they can ether try to regain the trust of killer players or hope that the changes work as they belive they will do.

I don't think this game will survive if don't act to regain the trust of the killer part of the comunity

I disagree with people that think it should no longer be a Hex.

Personally the perk is fine, they just need to fix map rng and tweak some of the larger maps so it isn't a hindrance to play on

Well all we need is to slow the gens during the 2 first min maybe ? To give a chance for ALL killer in this game to apply pressure

Also this game have too much snowball on the two side

Hmm, actually making killers the way they should be? Scary and dangerous? I mean, right now - put great survivors vs great killer and survivors will always (at least over 90%) win. Game is only being balanced around baby survivors crying about this, crying about that. And just to be clear - I am survivor main, I'm not really good and I hate ruin change.

Especially reasoning the nerf is... silly. 'New survivors can't hit skillchecks' tell me something devs (if any devs will actually read this), and don't take it as an 'attack' or something, it's just food for thought. Lets say you're balancing a shooter, would you give new players aim bot, because they have hard time hitting head shots? Or in Mortal Kombat full combos on one button, because it's hard for new players to sequence a full combo? No, as a new player you have to learn mechanics, hitting skill checks IS a mechanic, basically only thing a survivor has to know. Each game has something you have to LEARN and in DBD we have those skill checks. What are you going to do next? Remove killes' weapons, because new survivors have hard time looping? Just think about it, you're going in wrong direction.

I don't even want anything now, its a change that needs to happen, if BHVR just said they were also looking at balancing killers at higher ranks, and/or considering buffs/reworks to the killers hurt most by the Ruin change (Trapper, Clown, Hag, LF etc)

I think simply allowing me to place it on any dull totem I want, whenever I’m ready to surprise them with the effect, would make it usable for me.

Making gens more challenging is literally old ruin lol.

Make ruin a regular perk. That's all I ask