What WOULD make you be ok with the ruin rework?

Just give us an overhaul of the game. Rework gens or change the objective entirely. No more skill checks that require you to press 1 button to win. Maybe transport one objective to a place. Repair something else. Create side objectives that give passive buffs to killers and survivors. Survivors can sabotage the killer's passive buffs while trying to buff themselves. It's a 4v1, the killer has to be OP or have a noticable edge.

At the start: killer has an ability, perks etc. But also a monolith on the map that supplies some kind of buff.(this killer buff from the map could be the op factor) The survivors mess with the monolith to take that buff off the killer temporarily, while it gives them 1 of 4 buff choices. This creates a power struggle while the objective battle is happening.

Extra balance details could be worked out later but it's a rough sketch.

What I seem to find is that people find it difficult to patrol gens on larger maps. Maybe if large maps had an extra gen or two that need to be repaired in order to power the exit gates.

Yes you're right I forgot about the power tapping in red ranks.

I won't miss Hex Ruin at all because it wasn't fun and likely chases away new players before they get to the fun progression loop of the game; which is unlocking and experimenting/mixing and matching powers and perks.

That said Hex Ruin was also not needed against lower ranks for a number of reasons; among them being a lack of focus on objectives, chases being finished earlier, missed skillchecks and too many relying on stealth gameplay. Note this isn't a slight against stealth gameplay but rather people who are new hiding anytime they hear the terror radius playing despite the fact that its playing near them not because the killer is approaching but because they're chasing someone else nearby. In this situation, all Hex Ruin did was create an overwhelming stomp.

On the other hand higher ranks suffer from people who are very good at managing time and pressure, and both sides are not necessarily even when it comes to applying pressure.

When one person works on a generator providing they hit nothing but good skillchecks they complete it in 80 seconds. When two work on it, 44, which is a 1.8 rate. The rates past that are 'eh' and not worth considering, especially if you factor in Prove Thyself, which then suddenly makes it a 2.0 rate for 40 seconds.

Now what is something veterans are better at? Hitting Greats. This is why people say good players 'power through' ruin. But even in this scenario, Ruin still provides a service; it removes the benefits of landing a Great. Outside of ruin you speed progression up by 2 seconds per Great. On average a skillcheck is about every 8 seconds or so; sometimes more, sometimes less, but that's the general tested average without perks such as Spine Chill muddying the waters.

So doing a generator by yourself is around 8 skillchecks. That's potentially 16 seconds reduced. The 1.8 rate I mentioned earlier? Well, now you have potentially two skilled people getting great checks. So now you have a 40-44 second gen also getting 8 skillchecks, which is even more impactful if they're doing well. Ruin stops these bonuses.

I wouldn't propose that base generator speed needs increased, but Greats are very polarizing when it comes to how lower ranked games take time and red ranks don't. They should probably be sunset'd.

As for earlier claims of not even on when it comes to applying pressure; map design, yeah. There's a reason Nurse (despite her nerfs), Billy and Freddy remain praised. When Red Forest loads up and up to two survivors spawn near each other on a generator there's no 'git gud' about taking any killer without a transportation power and reaching them before the generator pops. There's no 'apply pressure' either. There's "man, I sure hope they 3-gen themselves by being greedy" and that's about it.

That maths isn't correct.

You can't know how many killers use ruin outside of the red ranks because you don't know how many killers are in the red ranks and how many are not.

For example, if there's 100 killers in the world, maybe only 5 are red ranks, in which case, 4 of those 5 use ruin (80%). Of the remaining 95 non-red rank killers, 40 would use ruin, resulting in 45% total, but still 42% use outside the red ranks.

Considering the ranking system is harder for killers than survivors, you're less likely to have a lot of red rank players, and there'll always be a significant pool of lower rank players that haven't had access to Ruin yet to use it which alters the number. (In that they would use ruin but cannot.)

I think that the ruin should remove great skill checks, similar to what it's like to destroy one of the demogorgons portal, and remove the hex part. It doesn't regress gen time, but it doesn't boost it either. Additionally, it can kind of make it harder to see, as the great part of a skill check makes it obvious when to go. You'd just be looking for two little white lines and a sound to indicate there's a check.

Also, to explain upon my previous post a bit. The core issue for killers is time. New ruin deletes every killer without mobility from the game if you're looking to be efficient, meaning you're left with Billy, Spirit, and MAYBE Oni (Maybe because I haven't given him a proper shake yet). The trap killers are forced to play 3 gen basement setup if they want to get anything remotely close to efficient, and everyone else can just get deleted for how often they'll be played.

Now, with the Ruin change itself, most efficient thing to do is just run your swf, if you get found, hightail it to the nearest safe area, chain loop for the match or until the killer loses interest, at which point you go back to your gen and the next person repeats this step. Now, with second chance perks, your 12 downs effectively get quadrupled at the minimum to 48, assuming they're only running one second chance perk and not using any of the other plethoras.

On the killer side, new ruin just encourages me to run Ruin, Thanatophobia, Surveillance, and Haunted ground for optimal pressure.

Removing those second chance perks would incredibly, and I mean incredibly even the playing field, as people like Ardetha have even stopped mid game to count how often they've had to rewin the same match because people get carried by those perks with minimal effort.

(Edited to correct miscalculation)

That's not entirely true. When survivor perks have been reworked, they still accomplish the same major goals. DS still gives you an extra hit, especially if the killer is targeting you. Balanced Landing is still an immensely powerful chase perk. I even ran Mettle of Man for the Bodyguard achievement since its buff, and had it working most matches.

Ruin's entire point and reason people ran it was to stall the early game which it blatantly no longer does. Ruin was not reworked, it was deleted and replaced with an entirely different perk with completely different uses.

No... needs to be more then 100% to work

It's working off of a normal Gen kick... which is 1/4 of a charge per second

Couple things here:

1) Without any second chance perks or saves, you have a minimum down count of 12 if you're playing as the devs intend you to play. If each person gets a second chance perk, that doubles to 24, if that team has 2 second chance perks, it goes to 36, and if they incorporate pallet saves and optimal flashes, it jumps at the least up to 48. While you are correct that most matches don't have that many downs, most matches are also finished within 3 minutes, with an overwhelming decisive victory by either side, usually carried by a specific set of perks, which we call a meta. The reason you balance your game around optimal play, is because as the depip squad from ages ago showed, you can walk in as a survivor without any items, communications, or perks, and still cause a killer to depip by simply knowing how to use pallet saves and time management.

2) If I wanted revenge, I'd immediately demand total gen count be increased rather than asking for a core overhaul as the design philosophy behind the title so desperately needs. If you want to be petty about it here, and I mean truly petty, absolutely zero of these "balance" patches would be pushed out by a professional team, as they lack a basic understanding of why the perk was ran so often in the first place, (it wasn't about score, but about time management as any experienced killer will explain to you).

TLDR: You want people to be happy with the changes for ruin? You need to understand the fundamental issues that have caused ruin to be such an overused perk. Adding a new objective for survivors to do would help the game immensely. Don't balance the game around low ranks and make sure it is first balanced at the highest levels of play.

They really need to fix gen speeds or add another objective for survivors to complete. I think that adding a fuse box or some sort of electrical panel to wire correctly for the door to work would be far more engaging for the player base. Or you could have a clear objective in the corner saying that 'in order to work on gens you need to find a wrench', or something to that extent. I'd love to see some creativity in adding new tasks that need to be done. It would breathe new life into the game that it desperately needs. It gets boring sitting at a gen holding M1.

The reason ruin has been run in 80% of red ranked games is because gens are completed too quickly. Killers can only chase one survivor at a time. Meanwhile 3 other people can be working on generators, which means that you could potentially get well over 50% of survivor objectives (including opening the door, although that only takes a mere fraction of how long it takes to do a gen) done within the first minute and a half in the game.

Everyone complains that they see the same killers at red ranks. Well guess what? You're only going to see less diversity because a majority of killers that rely on ruin to get early hooks will be unplayable against good survivors. Get ready for non stop billys, spirits, and nurses.

I also think that the balance team NEEDS to do a trickle down balance system. If the game is balanced around the most skilled & invested player base, the game would be balanced for everyone else. DBD should not cater to rank 15s when the game is horribly balanced at the highest level of play. Could you imagine a truly competitive game like LOL or CSGO balanced around the lower to average ranks? It would be a nightmare for anyone who has put in time and effort to get to high ranks just to realize how unbalanced game mechanics are for the pros.

I'll touch on the ranking system briefly, although its somewhat related to the new ruin. It was mentioned in the patch notes that:"Newer players trying to help veterans with generator repairs tend to make the situation worse rather than better." There shouldn't be new players and veterans in the same game if the ranking system is taken seriously. If there was a separate queue for ranked games which were for solo players that would make ranked feel much more like ranked. SWF should have it's own queue that doesn't affect your rank. You should be able to earn BPs in either game mode, its just that pipping wouldn't exist in a more casual match-making. I want my rank to matter in this game, and if it doesn't then ranks shouldn't exist. Period.

I understand wanting to fix ruin, however you need to understand why it's being used so frequently in the first place. Everyone is screaming to increase gen times but I get why they can't/won't do it. It becomes dull for survivors doing the same dull objectives time and time again. Adding new objectives would save this game & be revolutionary.

Also if these changes for ruin go live without acknowledging the problems killers have with objectives and gen completion times I won't be playing this game anymore. I have sunken hundreds of hours and got some of the DLCs. You'll be losing a player for good if you take away the one perk that was barely holding this game together.

All of this! Specifically the last part.

What if they removed the hex part, while also removing the automatic regression part. Youd be able to have gens regressing faster, but would have to start the regression yourself. This could allow it to be used with Pop and such, whereas PTB version cannot. I feel like it would have nice synergy with Surge if done like this.

What your describing though is the effect of 2 separate perks. Im just suggesting something that wouldnt have it getting in the way of other perks like the PTB version currently does. A survivor could still come tap the gen to prevent fast regression from ruin with this idea.

As far as feeling punishing when theres only 2 survivors left... I feel like ANYTHING would feel rough when theres only 2 survivors left and still gens to do.

I still dont see how this would bolster anything really. Its not really offering a synergy like spirit fury and enduring do, but rather just NOT getting in each other's way. A similar comparison would be something like Sprint burst and adrenaline, 2 perks that CAN proc one after the other to result in a huge speed boost gain, but dont hinder each other. You wouldnt be against a killer using OTHER gen affecting perks like Thana and Pop in conjuncture, so why is this combo considered too much?

Pop is used so much because the effect it gives of the 25% is stable; a killer KNOWS kicking a gen is going to be of value, if nothing else than for the 25%. The ruin suggestion would still be under the same counter as kicking a gen normally... The perk would only have any actual benifit if a gen is ALLOWED to regress and a survivor doesnt tap the thing immediately after leaving.

This was another reason why I compared both to SB and adren btw. SB, like Pop gives guaranteed value. You might not get the same value from suggested Ruin or Adrenaline, making it more of a gamble.

If you actually read the whole thing, those are POTENTIAL saves, total perk saves put it at 20. Good to see you fail to argue in good faith though. If you actually read the whole thing, you'd actually be able to piece together WHY second chance perks should go with Ruin, and again, I painted it out pretty clearly, it all comes down to time, of which, one perk can 100% win your team the game with a proper button press. But of course, Don't pay attention to the actual message, no wonder the game remains in shambles lmao

I feel like alot of your "math" is hugely exaggerated though. A single dead hard for example is very unlikely to add an extra 90 seconds onto a chase. You also listed off self-care as a 2nd chance perk. Frankly, if all 4 survivors in my lobby ran self-care...oh happy day. Thats alot of time spent self-caring instead of doing anything constructive.

Even at red ranks, its very unlikely a chase is going to last 90 seconds total, let alone an ADDITIONAL 90 seconds due to dead hard. I could use Clown or Legion and still be able to get MUCH better times than that. The majority of ppls complaints toward the ruin change is looking at something as simple as map traversal, and how unless your power gives you the ability to travel the map faster... That gen on the other side of the map that you see 2 survivor auras on with BBQ is GOING to pop by the time you walk there. This has nothing to do with chase times.

You get the point though. The new Ruin is not bad, it just needs to send a focus the maps more than anything now