What WOULD make you be ok with the ruin rework?

Your explaination just now does NOT explain how a ruin can pop and 2 gens be done within 20 seconds. If we had everyone spawn in place with the killer not chasing ANYONE away from anything, but rather stare at them so they can proc more great skillchecks than normal with spinechill...the time still wouldnt work out

As far as your explanation on how 2 survivors without supped up toolboxes could pop a gen in 20 seconds due to great skillchecks...both of them would need a great to pop up like 20 times each. The much more reasonable time would be about 40 seconds.

Oh and Old Ruin did not tell you where survivors where at.

It only slowed down potato survivors!

Is that 320 just base kick? Cause if so that turns ruin into 160 seconds to full regress. Which...that's....that's not good

I agree.

this version of ruin is not hex worthy..... if BHVR wants ruin to be a hex, they have to increase the regression.

implementing the idea of gens regressing would be really good for the game overall. BHVR could still allow killers too use POP the same way.

this mechanic being made base would help change the meta which will be nice.

No surveillance would not be op it would still be just good because if the killer wants a down they have to commit to a chase sometime, which will allow time to repair.

thrilling tremors will be better then it is now, which I am all for, I love that perk.

and the reward for pushing survivors off of gens is always there which is needed imo.

Another positive... without POP this removes the wasted time of kicking gens and removes the annoying "drive by tapping" where survivors spend lees then a second to stop the regressing gen that you spent 2seconds kicking... this would be brilliant for the game.

Any reason this thread was unpinned?

there is going to be a huge increase in map pressure killers. It’s hard to have variety and play for fun when you get gen rushes to death. That is mid ranks 12-9 POV. Survivor and killer. Also I got many, many consecutive games yesterday as killer where at rank 12 I have at least 2 red rank survivors and two purples. Killer ques are gonna be awesome. Killer games are not gonna be awesome. Nerfing Ruin is going to be profound and pretty negative for killers.

It not being a hex would likely be a bit too powerful. At the moment, it actually is a good perk on killers who are efficient with their pressure.

Honestly, I feel map issues are the real problem in all of this. Maps too big a say in how long chases are, and how long it takes to get from point A to B.

This will come off as long-winded, but rather than make a suggestion with no context, that gets laughed out of the thread for others not understanding the underlying assumptions/context, I'd rather provide a background/basis for any assumptions that I work off of. Here goes:

What would make me okay with the Ruin 'rework' (nerf nuke)?

Getting something comparable in its place. Hex: Ruin, as it was, was a perk to extend early-game.

Why does/did early-game need to be extended?

Because even the most braindead survivors can hold m1 on a generator for 80 seconds, and since the killer can only chase one survivor at a time, the 3 survivors not being chased can all get on separate generators within 20s of match start, having their generators completed within 100s of match start, without fear of being interrupted. Any survivor worth their salt can lead a killer around on a lengthy chase with all the map assets that are intact at the start of the match. It's not about winning the chase or not getting caught - it's about wasting the killer's time.

At this point (100s into a match), there are 3 unharmed survivors with the 4th either being chased or hooked, with 2 gens left. Since the killer can only chase potentially one of those 3 unharmed survivors, the other two can either sacrifice the hooked survivor (or repair more gens without such a dilemma if the first chase is still going, assuming that this takes an additional 110 seconds, 30s to find a gen and another 80 to finish it) to have a free guarantee at repairing both remaining generators, or hook save with one survivor in limbo and the other being guaranteed safety on a generator and repeat the process for the final generator.

This results in the match being over in 210-300 seconds, under 4 or 5 minutes, with 2-3 total chases, and 3-4 escapes. For setup killers such as Hag, Trapper, Demogorgon, Oni, and Myers, this is not enough time to set up their abilities enough to use them for map pressure (and if they did/could take the time to set up, they would surely lose by default). For mid-tier killers such as Freddy, Ghostface, Pig, and Wraith; low-tier killers such as Clown, Leatherface, Doctor, Legion, and Plague, respectively, this spells their doom. This is why the high-rank meta ignores them, generally. It's why Spirit, Nurse, Hillbilly, and Huntress reign at the top - because with a combination of luck and skill, they can win chases quickly, allowing them time with which to exert map pressure in early-game. Keep in mind that I'm talking about default kits with low-grade through decent add-ons, not some of the one-off high-tier add-on combos that make certain killers far more viable than their standard kit normally permits.

So, let's talk about Hex: Ruin itself: what it did, what that spelled out for gameplay, and why it was used to the extent that it was.

Let's dispel the notion that Hex: Ruin was overpowered, while introducing it. It was a Hex perk (which can be removed by holding m1 for 14 seconds on the associated totem) that gave a small, non-threatening punishment to hitting good skill checks (7 seconds of repair progress (3 seconds of making the generator unrepairable, as well as 5% progress which is another 4 seconds)), as well as removing the additional progress from great skill checks.

In regards to gameplay, this means that if a survivor hit great skill checks, or had few to no skill checks appear at all, then Hex: Ruin would have no effect on their repair progress. Only if the survivor both had skill checks appear at all, and hit good skill checks, would it affect their repair progress. If they could not handle hitting great skill checks, they could disable the associated totem or tap the generator to completion.

This perk was incredibly widespread because survivor is braindead easy to the point where most survivors deemed hitting skillchecks as a mechanic that they did not need to improve at (Of course, there were those of us who would use (http://www.mistersyms.com/tools/gitgud/) between matches to actually improve at the game, but we were apparently few and far between. Skill checks used to be much harder, too, as you'll see if you use that git gud skillcheck simulator). As a result, survivors of all ranks had their generator repair progress slowed down by this perk, to the point where more survivors than not decided it was a better idea to gen tap to avoid dealing with Hex: Ruin, rather than learning how to power through it. Since gen tapping is also slower than normal repairing, Hex: Ruin had still accomplished its purpose in the early-game of matches - slowing down generators. Specifically, it kept 3 generators from being completed in the first 100 seconds of the match.

Traditionally, it has been held that Hex: Ruin is a mandatory killer perk. I both agree, and disagree with this. Some killers are powerful enough to not require it, and those are the killers that are commonly seen to be successful against the better survivors. The weaker killers, on the other hand... they need a helping hand, and the one that reached out to them is called 'Hex: Ruin'.

Fast forward a bit of time, and Corrupt Intervention is released with The Plague. It prevents the 3 generators farthest from the killer from being repaired for the first 100 seconds of the match. This doubles as a radar for the areas in which survivors are likely to spawn, for inexperienced killers. This could have replaced or been interchangeable with Hex: Ruin, if not for one simple fact - survivors could work on generators closer to where the killer spawned. All Corrupt Intervention brought to the table was 30 extra seconds to the early-game phase of the match, since the killer can only chase one survivor at a time, and they still face the same scenario, only slightly closer to where the killer spawned. As such, it sank mostly into obscurity. It is occasionally useful on the Pig, however, as it can sometimes buy her enough time to start putting RBT's on survivors. Not that many Pigs run it, when Hex: Ruin is a superior alternative.

Fast forward a bit farther, and Ghostface's release brings Thrilling Tremors into DbD. It's a perk that works as a radar and doubles as generator repair prevention. While it's handicapped by its cooldown and requirement for a survivor to be picked up (requiring the killer to already win a chase, and in the sequence I described earlier, it's almost impossible for some killers to win a chase early enough for this perk to be useful at all), it's also a shame that it is only useful on killers that can end chases quickly and have enough mobility to arrive at non-highlighted generators near-immediately (since survivors can move away from non-highlighted generators). This perk brings the Nightmare onto the high-rank scene, being able to teleport to generators that are currently being worked on. In that sense, it is a semi-potent alternative to Hex: Ruin for the Nightmare, which he requires, since his main mobility is locked behind a cooldown at the start of the match.

Now we have Freddy (partially), Hillbilly, Nurse, Huntress (if they lived the Navy Seal copypasta and are a competent sniper), and Spirit, who do not necessarily require Hex: Ruin to be able to have a chance against survivors in the first 100 seconds of a match.

No, it's not the size of the maps that are the main issue, currently. The only noticeable part of maps that affect the better killers' performance, is whether it is mainly an indoor (close-quarters) or outdoor (long sight lanes) map. To avoid being inconvenienced by large maps, killer players already limit themselves to specific killers, because it's not worth the frustration of moving at the speed of a tortoise (4.6 metres/second) across a map 150 metres across. But that's a problem with killer diversity, and has nothing to do with performance in general in early-game for the better killer choices (as they already have better mobility), which is where Hex: Ruin came into play. Remember, if the maps are reduced in size, then perks such as BBQ & Chili and Knockout (Knockout has already been made useless by SWF, but whoever is reading this gets the point, I'd wager) become less useful. As such, smaller maps are not necessarily better.

So, it becomes clear that the alternative to reducing map size, is making the worse killers have better mobility, chase presence, and/or map presence. This could be done through improving some killers' kits, and/or through multiple perks that would be as useful as Hex: Ruin, without stacking, so as to be interchangeable and promote build diversity.

Killer power examples:

-the Trapper's traps could spawn armed and in more convenient/camouflaged locations. After all, it's supposed to be the killer's home court.

-when the Wraith rings the Wailing bell, all survivors hear ringing for X seconds, making them unable to hear skillchecks or terror radius.

-in a match against Leatherface, survivors would hear Texas Chainsaw Massacre-related sounds that would throw them off.

-in a match against Leatherface, survivors could come across bodies (perhaps of duplicates of themselves) that have been badly mangled by chainsaws, giving them a 'Fear' status that could affect their ability to do much of anything.

-the Plague could be able to do certain actions to 'corrupt herself' and skip the requirement of having a survivor cleanse themselves to access Corrupt Purge, for more chase presence.

-the Plague could use Vile Purge out of the other end for increased speed around the map by propulsion from behind. Yes, this is more of a meme idea than a serious one.

-the Plague could use an alternate version of the usual spit, where she spits out an explosive ball of Vile/Corrupt mess that detonates and affects all survivors within range.

-the Legion could be able to down injured survivors with 2 hits of Frenzied attacks.

-the Legion could have an active ability where they teleport from one side of a survivor to the other, requiring a line of sight break in close proximity to activate. The Legion is 4 individuals, after all, so teamplay on their part should be considered fair.

-the Clown could gain some sort of boost for walking through his own poison clouds, or break out into insane laughter that would 'Unnerve' all survivors for a duration (similar to Unnerving Presence).

-the Clown could have a bottle or two of booze that he could down during the trial to enter an alternate state. The Clown hunted trophies off of his victims and enjoyed that part of it - maybe being reincarnated as a violent drunk could unlock an alternate kit for a short duration, making him more of a horrifying clown than a poison-oriented hunter.

-the Clown's poison could have a lasting effect on survivors' bodies throughout the match, as his concoction would take greater effect when given more time to circulate around someone's system. This would make him a killer that grows more lethal the longer he can stall survivors.

-Myers could have a limited amount of stalk-free tier ups that he would generate over time. His power is Evil Within, after all, so why should the source of his power always be external? Even if it is a shorter/inferior version of tiering up, it would be an improvement over his current status.

-Myers needs to have the 'Exposed' warning removed in tier 3 of Evil Within until he actually downs someone with it, and it should only last for that specific instance of t3. That way, people can't look at the right side of their screen and know when Myers is a threat or not - they will have to pay a single bit of attention for once.

-Myers should not have a map-wide sound when tiering up. The sound should only be heard within a set distance of him when he tiers up, or when a player is downed by him if they were not in the initial radius. Even Wraith does not give away as much about himself as Myers does, and Myers is supposed to be the stalker. How can he stalk when he can't even be stealthy about his maneuvers?

-Myers needs to be able to gain evil from stalking multiple survivors at once, like he used to be able to. There is no excuse to keep him nerfed because rank 20s complained about an aspect of him, years ago. He's not Freddy, and shouldn't be treated like Freddy. People know that there is no increased threat from multiple people staying in his sight line, and even go so far as to taunt him in groups.

-Ghostface was a killer who stalked people until he learned every intricacy of their routines, then planned their deaths down to the minute detail. It would be interesting if he could look at a map asset and see which survivors have frequented it, or be able to predict a survivor's current location by knowing their routine. Perhaps something colour-coded, or with symbols (for colour-blind players)?

-The Pig needs a tiny bit more early-game pressure to truly get the ball rolling, since there are Jigsaw boxes all over the map that give people an early warning to look out for the Pig. Perhaps she could have 1-3 special stealth dash attacks with double or even triple range and slightly increased movement speed from the usual, each match. They'd give a relatively fair edge - if used properly, they could give hits; if used improperly, they could be wasted against a pallet.

-I'm not going to spend time making suggestions for the Doctor, so close to a Doctor change. There are plenty of ideas floating around these forums for that, currently.

Perk examples:

-a perk that builds up faster, the longer a killer's ability is unused, that gradually increases their movement speed until their next hit. It would greatly affect Myers, Freddy, Legion, Ghostface, Plague, and Leatherface, as their powers are useless for the majority of matches.

Is the better solution to rework the bottom-tier killers so they do not have garbage kits? Yes, of course. But Behaviour does not seem to want to go that route, as evidenced by the fact that we have had Hex: Ruin for a while, but bottom-tier killers for far longer and in greater numbers (I mained OG Wraith, OG/post-OG nerf Hag, post-nerf Freddy, pre-buff Doctor; you name the steaming hot pile of garbage, and I can tell you about the regular experience with it); as well as that we are losing Hex: Ruin, but the bottom-tier killers are apparently here to stay.

But, who knows? Hopefully they address the real issue.

I understand. I hear you. But were fighting a losing battle. I can only hope that we can get something as killers.

I don't know if anyone has already said this, probably has. But it would be good if you'd be able to place the hex a dull totems after the associated totem has been cleansed.

Honestly if they made it to where great skill checks don't progress generators faster and it caused a 10% decrease in time to fix generators that would be fair I think.

Survivors repair gens in oder to escape. Gens speed is nightmare to some killers. Ruin was born to slow down just a little bit. Turn out nightmare to newbie, bad experience when playing. Change ruin just to slow down gens in another way. People complained. So, what is the main problem now? Here’s my opinion:

1. Remove ruin. You guys already have one way for survivors to escape trial by repairing gens, so just add one more way for them to achieve. The main key here is to create another “side mission” or “mini goal” (just simple but waste their time, like “type letters“ or ”transport things”) so you can buy some time for killer. These mission can be alternative and different each trial and must be completed in oder to open exit gate.
2. Change ruin:

Hex ruin: Remove Great skill check. All Good skill check stop the repairing process for 1/2/3 second.

Hex ruin: Replace Good skill check with Freeze skill check. Freeze skill check block the generator for 1/2/3 second.

Hex ruin: Any explosion survivor made to the generator block that side of generator for 40/50/60 second. Decrease skill check success zone. Speed up the pointing bar.

The end.

Easy fix

Make it not a totem. Literally the biggest problem with it, since the dawn of time. And now that it sucks major dong, why let it be a totem? Totems are supposed to be powerful perks, thus be able to be destroyed.

New Ruin doesn't fall into that category of powerful perks anymore, it used to be a potent slow down of progression perk, especially good vs less experience players.

More experienced players could bypass by doing skillchecks, which they deserve since they got better at the game, thus they succeed like it's a normal gen. Or you can tap, if you are not so competent. Or destroy it if you so choose.

Everyone talks about "Surveillance and New Ruin, OP OP", but it's still a totem, so this isn't so strong. Discordance is still better.

Simply put, it didn't need the nerf it got, the DEVs have the wrong idea of what killers used it for. It's not for their stupid emblem/Pip system, it's so we can have a breather at the start of the match and possibly get a survivor downed and another 1 or 2 injured, before 2 and a half gens are done. But they are blind to this fact, and refuse to do anything about it.

I am not a killer main by any means, I don't see the struggle of the perk. You do the skill checks or break the stupid thing. Could you be any less competent of a player?

Now we have a very poor situation again. I myself took a break from the game a week ago, seeing these changes are making me considering staying away for a bit longer than I would've liked. The game is fun, I do enjoy it, I have been a long time supporter of the game and the developers, they are trying, and have come far.

But this isn't it.

I'd be ok if

-over half the maps out of the pool weren't way to big for all non-mobility killers

-survivors received a 2nd (optional?) objective

Those power ideas are awesome

I would say separate these two abilities in two different perks. Keep Hex: Ruin the way it was, don't change it. Ever. But, this new one make it's own perk, that Isn't a hex maybe? Not needing to kick gens is a nice utility but it isn't all that strong, especially if the meta for survivors (with ruin being no longer an issue) is to gen rush. With nothing stopping them all I have left to do now is hang up my coat and give right up. They already bully killers as hard as they can, so what's the point in trying when the only defense you had is gone?