Just a comment about the motivation behind the Ruin update
Comments
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lul the survivors made 3genned themselves, how dare you protect the last? ######### lmao
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Yeah so finish the match... Either the survivors will give up.. or the killer kills them... or the survivors get the last gen. Better than just staring at one another. The killer has to swing sometime... best to do it while there is a survivor close by infront of them.
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Have you ever created a poll on forums and simply ask players if we agree with Ruin changes or not?
Do you EVER listen to us when we have something to complain about? If 70-75% of the people DISAGREE with the new Ruin are you still gonna implement it?
What is the PTB for if you blindly ignore the suggestions and the people's voices and you still push the changes as they are?
You've created a survey, why did you not include ANY questions if we like the new ruin or not? WHY?
Why are your answers so shady and dimmed and you don't have the courage to step up and actually say something productive rather than some boring yawn stuff which, with us, will never work out?
And btw, I am not a baby crying killer, I am a red-rank Survivor main and with this change, I can't wait to absolutely DESTROY every killer that stands in my way and gen-rush the heck outta him! What will this lead to? Longer queue times because nobody will want to play killer anymore which will go to slowly killing this game. And don't you dare revert to the changes to bring players back, cause they won't come back, knowing your shady past!
Sad, I've spent money on every single DLC to see a game destroyed by its own developers who have ears covered and refuse to listen to the majority of the players...
Oh, and I've seen the video with your colleagues getting destroyed by Monty, those are 4 of the 15 people you reffered to as people who have internally tested Ruin and found out the changes are good. Yeah, speaks for itself.
I'd kindly want you Almo to play a match as a red-rank killer with one of the weakest killers in the game against a 4 man SWF all red-ranks with 4 toolboxes and tell me your result with the new ruin. You will not stand A CHANCE. The amount of bully you will take will be immersive.
And this is something KILLERS do NOT want! This is why I rarely play as a killer, it's so weak it's hilarious...
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Hi, the patch notes were clearly sided, and balancing your game around mistakes terrible/novice players make is very stupid. These recent changes just made the game extremely easy for good survivors, and took out the little punishment players received for failling skill checks. Really, you don't butcher a perk because it is hard for players with <20 hours to understand what is in the match, because that basically screwed the rest of the community
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Our willingness to stand by it in the face of such anger over the change is an indication of our confidence in the new design and the benefits it will have in the long run.
I said this before, and I will say it again. You really, really better hope you guys are right about this belief because these words could come back to haunt the devs hardcore if the change ends up backfiring.
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The more I think about it the more I think it won't be a big deal in the grand scheme of things.
Early games are still gonna be awful for most killers. Smarter killers will slug and snowball more. Kill rate will most likely not change other than lower ranks and life goes on.
A lot of people will change to CI, a lot of people will not use any early game slowdown perks and the only difference will be that early gens pop faster but late games aren't gonna change much.
And people will actually play with 4 perks now rather than 3 when Ruin inevitably gets cleansed 20s into the match in red ranks.
Having to concede early gens still feels absolutely awful though and should be addressed. Smaller maps/better early game for killers please, even if other changes come along with it. Survivors aren't the only ones allowed to have changes because stuff feels bad to play against.
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GAH!
Such a mean post... You sure you aren't a killer main? :)
If you play at rank 1 survivor, then how much does ruin actually affect you? Do you just plow through ruin or go looking for the totem? If you just plow through it, then you see why the Ruin change doesn't affect you. If you go looking for the totem... Well you can still do that, once you touch a gen for a second, and stop you'll see if they have Ruin. So.. basically nothing changes for you as survivor.
You rarely play killer... So why does it matter? Just for the odd time you do?
BOOYAH!!!
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People should look at it differently...
Maybe the Devs want to see how things go in Live.
Maybe there is other ideas they have to go along with the Ruin change, but are holding back to see how the first change goes.
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When the changes go live and they will because its clear by their posts they aren't gonna listen the game will suffer or be mortally wounded. Low mobility killers like Huntress will be weaker because of maps and how large they are and badly designed. Ruin change would of been fine if everything else in the game wasn't a band aid fix DBD looks like a mummy with a bunch carebear bandaids as the wrapping...
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"We think its a good idea despite a large portion of the paying playerbase telling us it isn't."
The playerbase is literally how you get to pay for your bills and other necessaties, if you don't listen to them, guess what? We LEAVE. So you DONT get anymore cash from the players who left.
The sheer incompetence behind this decision is astounding. You're literally ignoring one of the most basic lessons of business.
Keep your customers happy.
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Buff thrill of the hunt.
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Yeah that was such a mean post (sarcasm if you could not tell)
He cares because the state of the game is being changed. Just because he doesn't main killer doesn't mean he wants the game to be one sided
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By saying that "we want to make Ruin and Doctor less frustrating for new players" they imply that new survivors face an experienced/veteran killer everytime and that those killers always have Ruin which is just bulllshit because you have to buy the hag dlc to get it first. Another example of how detached from reality they are.
Even if they make it so that it's not a Hex anymore, you will still have to chose between ruin and other anti-gen perks because PGtW, Overcharge and others just don't work with new Ruin.
Survivors constantly point out that they nerfed their precious DS or BT and yet I see 70% of survivors running those 2 perks every game, whereas Ruin is going to be nerfed into oblivion, to the point of being TOTALLY useless.
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I've brought this up before only to be told by other players that customers are not entitled to an opinion just because they paid for the game.
You are 100% correct though
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None of the nerfed survivor perks are useless though even sc is useful still and DS is still used often.
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I will still go hunt the totems cause I use Inner Strength in my main build, so I am a totem hunter, and yes, Ruin does affect the games quite a bit if not found early, even at red ranks, I am not an amazing player at hitting Greats(I hit about half my Skill-Checks greats) and doing multiple people on a generator with the current Ruin is not advisable, because 1 player is enough to hit a good skill check and then everything may go downfall from there and the gen repair to take some time.
It will affect me hard. The amount of killers who may drop their roles is not good, which means higher queue times, which means the probability to be paired with a green/purple rank killer to be higher and that killer be destroyed that he will never reach red ranks, we will see an even bigger discrepancy between the number of red rank killers vs red rank survivors etc. etc.
And to answer your question, my current killer rank is 12 with 1 pip, never been higher than rank 9 as killer, as a survivor I'm red ranks for months already(over 600 hours in the game)
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I wish DbD were better designed around player psychology.
The killer is alone against four survivors. New killers, due to a lack of any guidance from the game, are pretty clueless on what to do. Worse, matchmaking is putting new killers against experienced survivors. Even rank 20 killers against rank 16 survivors can be hopelessly outmatched.
So, new killer goes up against 4 survivors, and 3 gens pop by the time they get their first hook because they have no idea what map pressure is... that's 3/5 of the survivor's main objective completed while this killer has 1 hook, 0 kills, so basically none of their own objective is done. That is demoralizing. You can't even blame a new killer for quitting in those circumstances because in their mind they've already lost.
You can say, "Gens are supposed to pop at the beginning, and then the killer gains an advantage because there are fewer gens to patrol" (and that's only true if the gens aren't across the map from each other), but new killers don't have any idea that this is supposed to be the case, and even experienced killers can feel hopeless in the face of two or three gens popping at the beginning of a match.
I am amazed that any killer new to this game sticks around.
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I'm going to try to say this as peacefully as possible. When you say the first gens go fast, you are referring to the first 3 gens, which is 60% of a survivors objective. In this time the killer can get 1 or 2 hooks. In comparison that is 2 gens left and either 1 survivor on death hook or 2 survivors on second hook.
It is borderline impossible to recover from that, even if all your chases are like 20 - 30 seconds long, survivors can just power through the last 2 gens. To put it simple we cannot kill the survivors at all in just 2 gens. Its just too easy for them to get them done. This is due to so many things getting in the way, mainly map sizes and god buildings/loops. However even if these weren't a problem gens would fly by anyway.
Us killers didn't care that it was passive, what we cared about is that it had pressure at the start of the game. I bet you if it had killer input it would still be used 80% of the time.
This i don't think you are understanding: Old ruin applied pressure EARLY game, when 60% of the survivors objective is being done. We do NOT want a perk (specifically a hex perk) that applies pressure LATE game. That is not what we used ruin for. We needed something to battle the early game and ruin was the only thing we had.
And... please, we honestly don't care about our gatekeeper, that's not why we used it. We used it to prevent 60% of the survivors objective being done in under 90 seconds.
Finally, the fact that you can stand strong against so many complaints doesn't show your confidence, it shows a sign of a massive disconnect between the community and the dev team. And if you think this change will be "good in the long run", then you have HEAVILY misunderstood the core mechanics of dead by daylight and what the community wants.
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You are wasting your time. Devs will ignore all arguments. They have some kind of god complex. If 99% of players complains they will say that its still good change still ignoring gen speeds, god loops and problematic survivor perks. They are not confident but only childishly stubborn.
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New ruin will only be slightly usable on the top 4 killers even then killers should just as well not run it because its still a hex and will be gone in seconds. If this is the devs team idea of balance it is very naive and bordering on delusional.
Ruin only ever caused serious issues for bad and new survivors but very good or great survivors popped the gens just as fast with ruin on. That's without bringing in perks that either speed up gen speed like prove thy self and toolboxes. New ruins regression rate will mean nothing if you have either a great toolbox or a perk like prove thy self.
Yes skill checks are annoying but aren't so annoying that is makes the game miserable its just a slight annoyance. With new ruin gens will likely hit record speeds in terms of time done 4 minutes is the time right now or less with perks and toolboxes.
DBD's only remotely skill based parts are some killer powers and skill checks and looping well that is it. Maps are complete rng which can destroy a lot of killers including the top 4 also new ruin requires "pressure" a killer can only be one place at a time and a lot of the maps are huge. Even a good nurse will struggle applying pressure because a killer can only be one place at a time.
This ruin nerf is both illogical and disconnected from DBD's core issues including map design,matchmaking,numerous bugs,micro transactions and developer disconnect. Also I don't expect a fix for the matchmaking as DBD has no way of properly gauging skill and you will hit rank one if you play well not even good just well. Matchmaking is a self inflicted wound because you clearly have no vision for it and can't gauge player skill in a game so rng based. Emblems are dependent on rng largely.
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Damn.. This was a really good read. Hell yeah. Nailed it.
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I've read the entire post, all the comments. And what I get that killers are angry, because Ruin was changed without changing the state of the game just to take care of newest players, even tho they are at their supposed age capable of learning how to hit greats in like 2-3 games? Or was it just me?
At the same time Dev's are still going through all of their bullshit, trying to justify it by saying "BuT wE cHaNgEd EmBlEm" and by saying that in their tests Ruin was working… Yeah I saw on Monto's video what skill some of devs have... No no… If you want to do tests, do it on high rank players that know what to do too, because you lack basic skills to make judgement yourself…
It seems that only time it really works is if you play against potatoes that ran away only when they hear heartbeat or when survivors get 3 genned with Ruin somehow still up?
Yeah… I wonder why killers complain so much...
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Almo gave some insight @Cornpopers_Evan
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Great post
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I was so, and still am upset about Nurse. There was no need to rework her or Ruin like this.
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@Almo first again a thank you to your time writing this thread and keeping track of it. I can imagine it is hard to crawl through this wiping aside all the unconstructive frustration posts.
I have a clear question and also indication why many people are not happy with the changes. As several threads already have stated, most care about the red ranks and can't follow the justification to newer players facing the great skill check punishment. Do you have any statistics on low rank usage of ruin?
It was said that there is 80% red rank usage and 45% all ranks. And that would mean, if ranks are equally distributed, that overall usage outside red ranks should be 36%. Regarding that new players don't main pick hag (according the latest stats) and would need to level her first before being able to unlock ruin and then go through the bloodwebs on their main killer hoping for ruin, it is more likely that new killers should be way below the 36% ruin usage. My guess would be 20-15% at most. And that would raise the question, if new survivors really are frustrated so hard by every 6th game, and why it wasn't clear that the change actually affects 4 of 5 experienced killers games and only every 6th game of the group that the change was targeting. Can you give any response to that pov?
Another, simpler question (or two combined): Regarding ruin and gatekeeper change, it reads like you actually confirm that it is expected to lose the first gen at the time the first survivor goes down. This is what I currently experience while trying the Oni adept. Was that really intended? From killer side it feels like it would feel for survivor side with one survivor starting on the hook. If this is not intended, were there any thoughts of a redesign that can protect gens early game as ruin is finally designed for mid to endgame? The only tool left now is Corrupt Intervention and that is not useful for all killers (Id say mainly for trap setters: Hag, Trapper and Demogorgon)
Thanks again for your effort
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New killers stick around in this game because if they're matched against new survivors they'll stomp the overwhelming majority of the games. This game is incredibly killer sided when both sides don't know what they're doing.
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If matchmaking wasn't so busted then that would be true
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👏👏👏
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Is this why the downvote button was removed?
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I would not be surprised if they are planning another major change to the game and have used the Ruin change first to take the negativity.
It seems like there is more planned here waiting around the corner..
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If you are gonna nerf a major part of a game you don't inflict a gaping wound in the game then say we are working on something. This change was made in a vacuum at best because it clearly hasn't been planned well at all. Maps should of been changed before this and gen speeds should of been changed before this. They say they planned it but its more like they got complaints from baby survivors like the devs themselves and nerfed it.
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Probably
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They dont have to be smart to be confident. They can 100% believe they're right, with a wrong choice.
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Well, he's the one who has been pushing for ruin to get nerfed since he joined the dev team back in 2018, it's expected that he should be the one to deal with all this backlash. Especially since he's ignoring all feedback and is just going to jam this change down our throats.
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This is the most half assed defense I've ever read. You literally just confirmed in the same post that people were right while trying to say they're wrong. pReTty gOoD jOb sO fAr indeed
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It's just baffling that they take away old ruin (which helps the early game where killers are weakest and most prone to being Gen rushed), and replace it with something that does the exact opposite, while still remaining a Hex.
Do they not understand that late game hexes are not good? Want to know why people don't run Huntress's lullaby? Because a Hex perk that doesn't become good until late game is basically worthless (excluding NOED of course, as it can't be seen until end game).
The first chase of the game is the most important at high ranks. End of story. Taking away the best perk to defend against the early game Gen rush and replacing it with this new Ruin is so short-sighted.
Devs, you have lots of really good players in here telling you this is a giant mistake. Most of us actually wouldn't mind a reworked ruin if it gave some similar early game relief.
Please, please watch some actual high rank gameplay.
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I wouldn't mind if they tested balance changes in game, if they didn't only update the game 4 times a year.
We need quick changes to perks, and feedback taken notice of to revert or keep changes.
This snail pace approach to balance is horrible.
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I remembered reading him justifying the change by comparing it to Devour Hope and said something like "Devour don't proc every game, but when it proc the panic of survivor trying to find the totem is unreal".
How many trial do you see Devour proc? How many trial do Devour get to 5 stacks? When do survivor know there is a Devour hex totem in the field and compare it to PTB ruin.
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With the addition that survivors don't know there is a Devour Hope until it procs, while the new Ruin you know it's there from the beginning.
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BHVR: "Your PTB feedback is very important for us but we dont care and do whatever we want. We know that there is anger and ppl dont like it but we will still implement it regardless on feedback (that is very important for us)"
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I’m honestly shocked they think PTB means anything. No one plays them really so the data won’t be accurate but we are talking bhvr here so...
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Stop censoring the memes bhvr they are one of the few good things to come out of this (bad word) show...
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BHVR can just skip PTB phase and just release it live. Its clear that they ignore any feedback and survey results.
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Indeed they just say (bad word) that survey
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But if they did, they'd lose the free advertising the PTB generates for them with all the datamined cosmetics, rift pass preview, etc, etc.
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You can END all this vitriol and hate and frustration so easy.
All you have to do is answer these with the simplest of answers. No details. No nda legal issues. Just 1 word answers.
1) Are map sizes getting looked at since certain maps make it near impossible to patrol gens for certain killers
2) Are gen speeds getting looked at?
Simple yes/no answers could end this all.
Or, you could make a statement like
'Hello children of the fog. As you know we just passed our 3 year anniversary and are quickly inching towards our 4th.
Since the game's release we have made it a priority to adapt and make changes in an attempt to create the healthiest atmosphere for all players.
That being said the overall assymetrical nature of the game makes balancing difficult. But because we have the most dedicated and awesome community of players, we doggedly strive to maintain your approval.
However, sometimes, in an attempt to help the game we must make decisions that will greatly upset the player base. Nothing pains us more than knowing that players are going to be angry at our decisions.
We make these changes, not to upset, but as a precurser to future balance changes. Certain perks and features make overall balance, an already difficult task, nearly impossible.
Just know that while these changes are hard, they allow a better and brighter future for our dedicated players.
Thank you for sticking with us for so long and we look forward to seeing you all in the fog for years to come.'
Knowing there are relavent changes coming in the future would help the backlash now.
Unless of course there isn't?
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This is so accurate it's painful to watch play out.
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Dont even try. I was asking in many posts here, marking @Almo and @Peanits and asking them directly IF and WHEN they are doing something with insane gen speeds. Simple question but never get any answer. They are able to respond only to compliments and make statements about their "strong confidence" while facing anger and insatisfaction of players 🤣
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Yet you seem to forget that as long as a Survivor is chased, all of the other 3 Survivors have absolutely no Reason at all to not work on Gens rendering its value almost non existent. As a Killer you actively would have to give up a chase in order to keep them from Gens but doing that will most certainly not contribute to the Killer getting Hooks. Maybe wait until changes to the pace of a trial are made and then push out this change alongside them or otherwise Killer Players (especially on High Ranks) will Resort to cheap and unfun tactics like Slugging, Tunneling. Especially Tunneling because if you manage to kill one survivor really early, the rest of the team is basically doomed. Yeah that’s definitely more fun than current ruin. Moris will probably be used even more because Killers have way too little time to hook 4 Survivors 3 Times. To compare one Gen equals 20% Of their Goal (not counting exit gates) completed. One Hooked Survivor equals 8,33333% of a Killers Goal Completed. When a Killer chases a Survivor, by the time the survivor is downed, 2-3 Gens will already be completed meaning the Killer did 8,33333% of his objective, Survivors already completed completed 40-60% of their Objective. The only thing that prevented the average high rank Match from looking like this was either Ruin or really bad Survivors. In fact Ruin actually proves whether or not a Survivor deserves to be at that rank. Good Survivors won’t even bother with searching for the totem and will instead work through it, meanwhile bad Survivors were punished and would be forced to waste time to search for the totem. I know a lot of people made the argument “duuuuh iF yOu cAn’T pLaY wiThOuT rUiN, tHeN yOu sHoUlDn’T hAvE iT!!!” And I honestly am amazed at how unoriginal people get with their arguments. The Reason why Ruin was pretty much mandatory at high ranks was because it was the only way for a match to have a possibly fair length of match for a Killer. Now I am able to play good on high ranks without ruin but it is a truly miserable and stressful experience that is absolutely no fun whatsoever. Now if this comment isn’t a fair criticism of a bad choice done by BHVR, then I don’t know what is.
Post edited by LRGamer on11
