TheSubstitute

Honestly, I'd prefer if the person in number 2 opened their own thread. As we all know, it is possible for both an issue to exist on one side and another unrelated issue on the other side. It would be more productive if people stayed away from whataboutisms and tried to put themselves in other people's shoes instead of…

I find it rather ironic you're making such widespread generalizations in this thread where everything you just mentioned is touched upon and a solution is mentioned. Making widespread generalizations and dismissing the other side's concerns without even trying to understand their viewpoint doesn't make for compelling…

Your was low? Mine was 26% of games for aggressive tunnelling. Every server is different though and probably every MMR level (of which I have no idea where I am of course). If you want to see my spreadsheets there under my post history in my profile under the thread titled 'Decline of Survivor Games' or something like…

Is it broken down by Killer for kill rates? If so, I'm interested.

No worries, I'll tackle both here. The first is that, at least according to my definition of tunnelling, you cannot tunnel without camping. There were Killers in my data that camped but went for the unhooker so they camped but didn't tunnel. While they performed better than Killers that did neither overall the tunnellers…

Your definition of tunnelling was hooking twice in a row? My definition was probably what you could call hardcore tunnelling as if the Killer doesn't camp they can't meet my definition of tunnelling just to put my data more in perspective.

Sorry for the double ping; one other thing I forgot to mention is that my suggestion for fixing tunnelling was stated above. Slower gens while all Survivors are alive followed by faster gens when Survivors start to die. Reduce the snowball by allowing the Killer more time to establish a foothold and spread hooks while…

I'm not suggesting items from outside the thread; I'm suggesting what I've suggested. There's no point in discussing suggestions outside the thread as they're not relevant to my point. And solos did not at any point in time in the past communicate more effectively than now. What happened is that survivors had more tools to…

My opinion is that it does solve quite a few issues (with the caveat it hasn't been playtested yet). Killers quite often complain about how fast gens go. While I don't feel that is a 100% valid complaint considering how the game is designed to be Killer sided it does have some validity to it. It's based on the same…

I'm not arguing that. I'm arguing tunnelling is unhealthy for the game but, in the end, BHVR has to enforce the mechanics. That's mainly on other threads though; I started this thread to help gain clarity as to why people who do feel you can have a good win rate in public matches without tunnelling defend tunnelling. I…

I'm not arguing the Killer has to ignore the target; I'm arguing it's better for BHVR and DbD if tunnelling is removed and BHVR should change it. You're reading too much into my posts if you feel I'm putting the onus on the players. If you're unfamiliar with my arguments I've made (which is of course reasonable as nobody…

Yes, please. I wish BHVR would tie gen speed repair to number of Survivors alive. It would be better for everyone.

The flaw I find with your argument is, yes, Killers have a right to win games but they don't have a right to win every game. It's okay to lose games. If you're losing an outrageous amount then that's not fun for anyone. However, what your statement implies comes across more of a Killers should win every game and Survivors…

My last spreadsheet comparison was, off the top of my head: If Killer tunnelled: 7.69% for both myself and all survivors overall If Killer didn't tunnel: 37% for me; 46% for all survivors overall

Those aren't emotional arguments unless you're incapable of seeing a point of view outside of me at this moment in time. As an example, I said Tunnelling is as much of a crutch as pre 6.1 DH. Pre 6.1 DH gave a statistically significant advantage that no other perk can achieve. Tunnelling gives a statistically significant…

That you're not acknowledging the logical arguments against tunnelling doesn't mean they don't exist. As a quick, non-inclusive summary Tunnelling provides as much as a crutch that pre 6.1 DH does. If the win rate by using a tactic that only one side has access to increases win rates by a significant amount (my sample gave…

The issue I have with saying tunnelling is a legitimate play style is that, when I did my comparison on how much tunnelling has increased between a series of solo queue games over different years, is that tunnelling gave a 90% win rate against solo queue. While of course DbD is more problematic to balance because of it's…

It's not annoying; I'm just asking for opinions and perspectives and you answered the question quite clearly. Thanks for taking the time to answer.

Hopefully the WoodChipper! https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/334348/the-most-horrifying-killer-bhvr-could-do#latest

If you focus the survivor with all chase/anti tunnel perks in your scenario you've been outplayed on the meta level and the subsequent loss is very much deserved. Just chase someone else.

It's a real issue in this event. That's the link I posted in September 2024 showing that the amount of hard tunnelling I see in games increased by 5% to 26%. It has links to 175 games over the two time periods I took snapshots of it. So that corresponds to how you feel it was less than 1 in 10 games before but for some…

It's a terrible perk for all but a strongly coordinated 4 person SWF.

If you don't understand how movement speed matters with a mechanic where your chance of success is greater the more ground you cover it's kind of pointless to continue a discussion.

So there's no issue with hiding for the Hatch with two survivors then since Killers have Spies in the Shadows and multiple aura reading perks and add-ons?

You don't understand how movement speed for a mechanic where you're more likely to be successful the more ground you cover is important?

That would only be an accurate statement if Killers and Survivors moved at the same rate and had the same conditions. Every player, regardless of role, can learn the spawn locations. However, the Killer player moves faster and doesn't have to avoid being spotted. That allows the Killer player to check out the most likely…

That's not accurate. If you would like to say UB is an acceptable counter to slugging the second last survivor for the 4K then it's just as acceptable to say that the existence of Spies in the Shadows and the plethora of aura reading perks justifies two survivors hiding out for Hatch. The Killer role overall has more tools…

What you're doing with your arguments is you're saying 'hey, in this particular niche situation it might be better to slug for the 4K'. In other words, you're using outliers in order to make a general statement. It's more accurate to look at the actual conditions and determine what would be done from that. It's also…

That's denying reality to say that Hatch doesn't favour Killer. The reality is the majority of time the Killer closes the Hatch. As well, looking at BP earned over multiple matches shows there is overall more BP earned simply by going to a new match as opposed to a small amount in one category you get more BP due to events…

Slugging strategically is an intended mechanic. Slugging for the 4K is not heavily incentivized. You can make the argument that it helps with pips if it's the second last survivor but, BP wise, playtime wise and most likely pip wise as well over the long term, hooking the second last survivor and moving on to the next…

That's completely mistaken. An adrenaline play is playing DbD as intended. What would be closer to slugging for the 4K would be if BHVR extended the EGC to four minutes and disabled the Killer's ability to attack survivors as soon as two survivors got out so the remaining survivors could then get a few extra BP and…

Why should Killers never retreat from a Survivor to find something more productive to do? That's macro level play. It's not a 1v1 contest; it's a 4v1. DbD has a lot of time management involved and the side that is more efficient at managing their time and accomplishes their objectives more quickly than the other side wins.…

There has to be something to actually discuss and the other side has to use critical thinking for any discussion to be valuable. As an example, you called me a 'baby survivor'. Looking at my profile for half a second would show I have over 2,500 posts. If you were curious enough to check my join date you would see I joined…

Five reasons mainly in my opinion. Denial. Some players don't want to admit they're not as good as they think they are and put the blame on something else. While this is, of course, true of both some Killer players and some Survivor players the question asked in this thread is about why players say the game is Survivor…

That's exactly the type of nonsense I would expect somebody who is even more toxic than the exit gate teabaggers to say. Thanks for helping prove my point.

Toxic behaviour is behaviour that is skewed towards accommodating one individual's needs and demands. By slugging for the 4K you are circumventing intended game mechanics (where the Hatch spawns and the last survivor and Killer look for the Hatch), you are wasting two people's time and changing intended game mechanics to…

Yes, definitely. That's why games that are less snowbally are better for player retention and enjoyment. Overall, people enjoy that more in the long run.

But that's simply not true for the majority of people. If it were true then gankers and twinks would be the majority in MMORPGs and they're not. And you still haven't directly answered my question; do you enjoy it when you get stomped by Survivors? Or is it you only enjoy it if you get to stomp?

That's not true of the majority of people. Stomping is pretty boring especially after a long chain of it. You can see that with people who twink and gank in MMORPGs. Do they exist? Yes. Are they the majority? No. The only studies I've heard about that have been done on it came to the conclusion that people, on average,…

Which is totally and completely irrelevant to whether or not people would prefer less lopsided matches, if people like being tunnelled or slugged for the 4K, or if BHVR would be better served by making the game more enjoyable. As well, and I could be mistaken, but isn't the most popular DbD streamer Otz who primarily plays…

That's a reinvention of history. Killers primarily wanted less strict match making as it was too stressful at higher MMRs; lower MMR Killers didn't seem to care that much. High MMR individuals on both sides wanted shorter queue times. Dowsey, for instance, had 45 minute long queues. There weren't that many Survivors who…

Yes, the stricter MMR is the less people enjoy DbD overall. That has only a tenuous connection to how people dislike being tunnelled or slugged for the 4K. It does help illustrate how using balance as an end goal and not a tool to achieve fun can make a game worse though.

Quite a few but I think one of the most humourous was when I got my Evil Incarnate achievement because the Survivors I was facing kept teabagging me and quite often in a group.

And more people would enjoy the matches if the game was less snowbally. What's more important; more people enjoying the game or hypothetical forum salt that would be no different and probably less common than the salt that's accumulated now?

I'm assuming you're referring to my list from the phrasing but I wasn't pinged. Apologies if I'm not the person you're responding to. Yes, on a larger scale I would agree SBMM is an issue. The matches are a lot fairer under SBMM but the question is are they more fun overall? Balance is a tool to achieve fun but not the end…

Changes to numbers, cooldowns, base gen defense, etc depending on the Killer in question. A general approach could be tying gen repair speeds to number of Survivors left alive so gens are slower at the beginning but speed up as Survivors get sacrificed instead of being the tunnel target or in an almost completely…

It is true that something would have to be done to move the kill rate back to 60% if changes lowered the kill rate below 60%. The issue that you're ignoring is that survivor is not fun due to strategies such as slugging for the 4K and tunnelling which nobody who is not being deliberately obtuse can argue that solo queue…

The empathy argument is always valid even if your analogy of survivors lowering their chance of winning is non-sensical as the Killer has already won in the situation we're describing. We're now discussing should two other people's time be wasted when the Killer has already won and the Killer gets more BP and faster…

Pretty much what @Firellius said. Chasing an invisible number that you can't even say what it is and using that to justify wasting everyone's time is not an argument that flies to anyone who has any consideration for the people on the other side of that computer screen.