What can 4% do?
80 SEC-> 83.2 SEC
i guess it is worth for one add-on slot right?
i mean 9% must be too strong so DEV need to NERF 56% of it right?
Even though you can just wake up to counter it but NVM who care.
i think we should just get over it again right?
Comments
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Becasue it wasn't just 9% as it was being used in conjunction with slowdown perks to make it more.
Never look at one thing but the overall picture.
So they had a choice to make. Change the perks of change some add-ons which would you say was the right thing to do?
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Freddy is still a really strong Killer. He did not need such a massive, unfun Slowdown in the first place. And like said, you either have to change the Add Ons or the Perks. So whats better? Change the Add Ons of one Killer or Change the Perks for every Killer?
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on top they didnt touch his useless addons like the cube. so yeah, another spit into our faces.
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Or just fail one skill check and his addons are non existent?
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why they need to change it?
killer run multiple perk slots and multiple add-on slots just to avoid a 5 min game.
i really don't see a problem here.
and just like i say you can just wake up to counter it.
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Have you considered combining it with other effects? Toss on swing chains and you've got up to 12%. Thanataphobia can add up to another 16% (total of 28%), and Dying Light can raise that up even further. And that's only considering action speed modifiers, you could also slap Ruin and PGTW on to slow generators down even more.
On it's own, it's no big deal. But stacking everything together makes it way too much.
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becaue they can and they dont care about killer player that much. also no one really stands up against what they doing so we have to deal with it. but then everyone complains about the queue times for survivor at red ranks. logic.
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This right here.
This is the reason why Forever Freddy was not fun. Who the heck wants to play against that?
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While that may sound good on paper it means forcing someone to effectively give their location away which Freddy can then teleport too and also regresses the gen.
The fact is the data obviously showed it was working too well so again do you want them to change the perk or the add-ons? See Legion for what happens when you change a perk instead of what makes it longer than intended.
Because it was obviously making it too slow from what they wanted.
If they did this with Legion instead of changing borrowed time then it would have been a better solution for that character.
It better to change add-ons than perks as it then affects all the killers not just the one who can make the most use out of it.
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So are tool boxes or gens getting a nerf too? I mean, it's not okay to drastically slow the game down in the killers favor, but it's still okay for survs to drastically speed it up? I really don't get the "so called" Balance system and how it works fairly for both sides. People act like every Freddy was running this build everytime or something... So, what's next? I guess GF because he sneaks up on survs to easily? 🤦♂️
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Jump Rope should be 6%. Outdoor rope should be 3%. Swing Chains is acceptable.
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No, they should stay at 4% and 2 % respectively.
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"While that may sound good on paper it means forcing someone to effectively give their location away which Freddy can then teleport too and also regresses the gen."
Location doesn't mean much with how strong and numerous loops are. His teleport has a cooldown and his regress kick is getting instantly tapped away soon as he leaves. I don't see the issue here.
"The fact is the data obviously showed it was working too well so again do you want them to change the perk or the add-ons?"
This is assuming anything needed to be changed at all. You're also drawing conclusions from highly inaccurate data that was stated should not be used too draw conclusions, like you are.
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Wait what happened
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but it take 4perk slots and 2 add-on slots to do it.
And it require to make 4 survivors all in the dream world and all in injure to reach it.
and in the same time it can be easy to counter just wake up and 2 of killer's add-on become nothing.
i really don't want to compare it.
but why killer stack the debuff could be a problem that need to nerf 56% of it while survivor can stack the speed buff too?
Nerf the slow down thing is really not a good thing.
Because it will only make DBD become a game that we need to wait more time to play with a less playtime game.
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Freddy slowdown addons got nerfed \o/
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But wouldn't it have been better to nerf it's stacking potential? Because now the addons are still fine when stacking it with other slowdown effects, but on their own they are pretty useless. I feel like a general action speed debuff cap or just not letting these addons stack with other action speed debuff effects would have been the better option. Then they would have still been somewhat useful on their own.
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3 of Freddy's add-on get nerf.
6%->2% 66%nerf
9%->4% 56%nerf
3%->2% 33%nerf
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I never had red rank SWF groups complete all the gens when I ran those addons as freddy with my slow down/gen control build.
Not once.
I am very bad at this game, and I was able to keep all gens from being done 100% of the time with this combo; now I don't think I've ever seen a nerf I've agreed with more from them honestly.
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I just read the hotfix notes and I also noticed that the bloody glove got nerfed hard too the question is still why since gen speeds weren't touched at all but base gen speed toolboxes and resilience still exist
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Knew this nerf was coming.
Still disappointed.
All these changes to various killers methods of slowing the game down...
But Gen Speeds Stay the same.
Tool Box Bonus speeds stay the same.
Yep. Fair and Balanced.
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Thank you
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I never drew conclusions from any data that's an assumption on your part.
The data the devs have to make this decision is not what we have ever been shown. To assume its off the last kill rates is completely wrong as they stated many factors come into play.
It doesn't matter about the cooldown as blowing a gen has implications. They can teleport, pretend to teleport, may be close by, hit to put them instantly into dream world again, snare cut down loops a lot if you know how to use them etc.
Freddy rework was the best change any killer has had in a while and they can be extremely strong in the right hands. Sometimes changes are needed which you may not agree with but they are needed none the less.
I notice you bypassed the question of would you prefer the perks or add-ons to be changed?
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I didn't see any Freddys not running it.
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Finally someone gets it. I get wanting the game to be killer sided but I also want a challenge.
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I never ran it. Waste of good perk slots to me, but I guess I play different.
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Some people still consider those perks the only perks worth running as killer. That cracks me up...
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"I never drew conclusions from any data that's an assumption in your part."
"The fact is the data obviously showed it was working too well"
Quite literally your quote, so yes, you did draw conclusions. You made an inference based on the data.
"The data the devs have to make this decision is not what we have ever been shown."
Since we have never been shown it you are completely making an assumption here. You are assuming the devs have data showing his over performance with those addons hence the nerf. We know nothing about that data so you cannot make this assumption.
"It doesn't matter about the cooldown as blowing a gen has implications. They can teleport, pretend to teleport, may be close by, hit to put them instantly into dream world again etc."
Those "implications" are as minor and insignificant as you think his cooldown is. He pretends to teleport, i step back and then continue on my way. Oh he got a hit? K i'll just fail one more, who cares.
"Freddy rework was the best change any killer has had in a while and they can be extremely strong in the right hands."
I agree.
"'Sometimes changes are needed which you may not agree with but they are needed none the less."
You have zero proof they are needed other than assumptions.
"I notice you bypassed the question of would you prefer the perks or add-ons to be changed?"
Actually no, I didn't bypass the question at all."This is assuming anything needed to be changed at all."
My answer was neither.
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Yeah I haven't seen a well deserved nerf in a while. If people wanted to say like hey these characters that have needed positive attention for a while are not getting it, what's up with that? Then yeah I understand, but these people need to pick their battles and they are picking one that the devs are so obviously in the right on.
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Me, I run ruin, pgtw, thrilling tremors(great for gen tracking) and sloppy. I might switch pgtw for thana sometimes, and switch sloppy for BBQ( farm BP's)
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Oh yeah I forgot about bbq.
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No I stated the data clealy showed it wasn't working as intended implying the data they used for the change. No where do I state the data they shared with us so again that's an assumption on your part.
Yes I am assuming the devs have data showing its not working as intended but its not a baseless assumption as they have stated multiple times they do infact use data we are not privy too for balancing.
It works both ways you have zero proof they weren't needed. Peanits commented above that working in combination with some perks made it slow down a lot so my assumptions seems more inline with the thought process.
What peanits said
"Have you considered combining it with other effects? Toss on swing chains and you've got up to 12%. Thanataphobia can add up to another 16% (total of 28%), and Dying Light can raise that up even further. And that's only considering action speed modifiers, you could also slap Ruin and PGTW on to slow generators down even more."
On it's own, it's no big deal. But stacking everything together makes it way too much as I while you can say I made an assumption it was made purely on the fact the change has happened. The devs obviously thought a change was needed hence it has happened so your assumption that it wasn't needed isn't based on the fact it was but what you personally think.
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"No I stated the data clealy showed it wasn't working as intended implying the data they used for the change."
That is making an assumption.
"No where do I state the data they shared with us so again that's an assumption on your part."
Why in the world would I assume you were referencing anything that we have never been shown? That just doesn't make any sense at all. We reference data we do have, not assumptions on data we have never seen but think exist.
"Yes I am assuming the devs have data showing its not working as intended but its not a baseless assumption as they have stated multiple times they do infact use data we are not privy too for balancing."
And if they data they choose to give us is heavily skewed and should not be used for conclusions because of this is that flawed, why would you assume the data they haven't shown us is any different?
"It works both ways you have zero proof they weren't needed."
And I am not the one asking for changes because of that reason. You are the one wanting changes. I don't ask for changes unless I have data to back it up.
"Peanits commented above that working in combination with some perks made it slow down a lot so my assumptions seems more inline with the thought process."
As I mentioned before, since we have not seen the data we have no reason to believe it's any more accurate than the data we have been given.
"What peanits said
"Have you considered combining it with other effects? Toss on swing chains and you've got up to 12%. Thanataphobia can add up to another 16% (total of 28%), and Dying Light can raise that up even further. And that's only considering action speed modifiers, you could also slap Ruin and PGTW on to slow generators down even more.""
This is assuming no one chooses to wake up which is quite easy, no one chooses to heal (of which Dying Light is making easier), the killer doesn't kill the obsession AND the killer is using up all addon slots as well as 2 perk slots.
Yeah when the survivors choose not to use a single ounce of counter play handed to them anything will seem strong.
"The devs obviously thought a change was needed hence it has happened so your assumption that it wasn't needed isn't based on the fact it was but what you personally think."
The devs have also made many poor changes in the past, so assuming that it was a needed change because they did it doesn't seem like good reasoning.
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Why would you not? the devs have stated multiple times that the data shown on the kill rates isnt used for balancing.
They have stated numerous times that they use many factors and actual data to make balance changes hence its not a baseless assumption but an assumption off of what we have been told to be the case so it comes down to common sense.
Overall you just dont seem to beleive there is a reason for some changes being made which is fine but thats something you personally feel. For myself when we have all been told multiple times they do infact have the data I beleive it. All I see is you are just arguing the point that you simply dont want to beleive.That then comes down to a trust issue on what you what the devs state.
Yes some poor changes have happened, in fact many have but that doesnt mean this one is one of those. The last Legion and BT change was a bad change what I think should have happened was an addon change and many argued the same case. This one maybe they may have learnt from that mistake and why i said they could have decided to change some addons instead of the perk combination which would affect all the other killers.
Just becasue you dont want to beleive something was needed doesnt mean it wasnt. Since we have no way of knowing the exact data they use then again it comes down to trust in the devs which you cleary dont have so no matter what happens unless you agree with a change then it will never seem to be needed.
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"Since we have no way of knowing then again it comes down to trust in the devs"
This is what the entire conversation can be boiled down to. Trust to me is earned by actions and over the last 3+ years of changes I don't believe it is there. This is the crux of our disagreement.
"so no matter what happens unless you agree with a change then it will never seem to be needed."
Not quite. I agree with a change if along with the change good reasoning or data is provided to back up said change.
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That's the point though. It was like running DS+Deliverance with Unbreakable. Strong build against the one specific aspect of the game. I thought you're fair with this?
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So again I lead you to this quote.
"Have you considered combining it with other effects? Toss on swing chains and you've got up to 12%. Thanataphobia can add up to another 16% (total of 28%), and Dying Light can raise that up even further. And that's only considering action speed modifiers, you could also slap Ruin and PGTW on to slow generators down even more.
On it's own, it's no big deal. But stacking everything together makes it way too much"
So knowing a dev stated this on this very thread it does show reasoning is stated so to myself the change was made due to looking at many perks and the overall possible slowdown effects as the quote itself states "stacking everything together makes it way too much" so one can conclude it was stronger in these combinations than they intended it to be hence the change.
So that goes back to my comments of its either change the perks or change the addons.
If you are never going to trust them then no matter what they say it really wont matter as you will disregard any and all reasoning as you have done here.
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"So again I lead you to this quote.
"Have you considered combining it with other effects? Toss on swing chains and you've got up to 12%. Thanataphobia can add up to another 16% (total of 28%), and Dying Light can raise that up even further. And that's only considering action speed modifiers, you could also slap Ruin and PGTW on to slow generators down even more.
On it's own, it's no big deal. But stacking everything together makes it way too much""
And I'll respond again with the same thing I did before.
"This is assuming no one chooses to wake up which is quite easy, no one chooses to heal (of which Dying Light is making easier), the killer doesn't kill the obsession AND the killer is using up all addon slots as well as 2 perk slots.
Yeah when the survivors choose not to use a single ounce of counter play handed to them anything will seem strong."
That is not good reasoning. It's lowering the bar because people refuse to learn and adapt.
"so one can conclude it was stronger in these combinations than they intended it to be hence the change."
The level of strength they intend is very weak.
"So that goes back to my comments of its either change the perks or change the addons"
Nothing you've shown has stated why either needed to happen.
"If you are never going to trust them then no matter what they say it really wont matter as you will disregard any and all reasoning as you have done here."
You are misunderstanding. I never said or even implied, "never going to trust them then no matter". What I said or implied was that I do not trust them unless it is included with good reasoning or data to back it up.
The reasoning Peanits gave was not "good reasoning". It was flawed on many accounts.
The game does need better balancing for low ranks as well but that is not how it should be done.
These are my opinions from many hours of play and you have yours.
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If that's the complaining issue, then don't make the add-ons stack.
If you ask me, this is more of a lazy fix. If you combine them, yes. They are worse. You just said the issue. Don't make it stack.
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What you're saying is easier said than done. What if I'm using two of those add-ons and Thanataphobia? What stacks? The add-ons clearly shouldn't, but can it stack with the perk? If not, which effect gets used? Even if you have a good system for that (i.e. Use the highest value), how do you stop it from stacking with Ruin and PGTW?
I don't mean to make it sound like I disagree, I'd be a-okay with not stalking slowdown, but it's not an easy thing to do.
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If you have a problem with the effects reaching a certain point, why not just add a ceiling? By this same logic, thanataphobia and dying light still stacks, no matter how much the addons get nerfed. If your looking at the combined values of multiple addons and perks, I feel like this would be the best solution as opposed to gutting one part of it that a player could be using with no intention of stacking to begin with.
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Nerf Balanced Landing. Waiting... medkit too. Cry more killers!
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Right, but then there's still the issue of other things with similar but not identical effects. Stuff like Ruin and PGTW which don't apply an action speed penalty but do have the same end result. Either way you slice it, you aren't going to be able to cover everything with a single change.
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so what's the matter of it?
the speed buff can stack too and it seems not a problem for you right?
then why the speed debuff could be a such serious problem that you need to nerf 66%+56%+33%of it?
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What you are saying is all about if's. The exact same argument can be represented on why a change was needed.
Now making survivor heal they need to find others to do so or run a perk, wake up, the killer can choose not to kill the obsession (which is counter productive to running the perk so why bother).
You don't seem to see what forever Freddy build actually was. It was running the exact setup to purposefully slow the game down which was clearly more than the devs obviously wanted or even intended to happen so they decided to make a change.
Think about it this way with exhaustion. The devs cleary decided they didn't want each perk having a separate cooldown so made one mechanic for all which was needed. In the past players also had to use two perk slots for SB and DH for example so what is the difference?
The reasoning was they changed something to stop it prolonging a chase too much and this reasoning is to stop it prolonging the game too much. Pretty much the same thing in reality.
The fact is the devs have gave some reasoning but you don't want to accept it as you just don't believe it was needed. It's not about reasoning then but back to trust as no matter what they say Unless you can get all the raw data needed to show it then you will never see some changes as needed.
That is fine but as you wont ever have that data so you will always plead a change you dislike as never needed and disregard what reasoning they give. The fact is this has happened and tou cna choose to beleive it or not but its obvious the devs did not want the combination to be possible at all.
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These are perks that are going to be in play no matter what addons and killer is being used though.I could run Thana, dying light, ruin AND PGTW on a Plague with no addons at all. Not trying to be disrespectful, but why were the addons considered the broken part in this combination?
Maybe a different route then. Considering the numbers on these addons are pretty much null at this point, wouldnt it be a good direction to simply change their effect all together?
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If the killer manages to get everything up (full Thana, a lot of Dying Light stacks), he has won the game pretty much anyway, with or without having the perks.
If the killer doesn't have any or a lot of stacks, the stacks aren't really relevant.
Making the add-ons non-stackable would have been more than enough. Imho even that wouldn't have been necessary. Several killers are more powerful than Forever Freddy.
Also the stacked effects don't sound that bad when I keep in mind that the Mechanic's Toolbox without add-ons increases repair speed by 20%.
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In reference to your DH SB analogy... This would be similar to if you could stack SB, DH, Lithe and balanced together on separate cooldowns, so instead of doing anything about being able to stack them like they DID do, they just nerfed 1 of them into the ground and called it a day.
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Well the speed decrease Stack with other Dream Demon Add-Ons, Thanatophobia, Dying Light, etc.
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It's just really unfortunate that you guys took BOTH addons, a total of 9k BP investment, down to under what the yellow addon used to do on its own. It feels extreme to those of us who never abused them and enjoyed synergies between other addons, like the paintbrush ultra-rare, which is now pretty much useless because being in dream world with just jump rope now doesn't really do anything. If it was too difficult to make the addons not stack with each other, maybe let the game roll a bit longer instead of doing a quick fix (which I'm sure you guys won't revert if you figured out how to target the addons alone) and devaluing a killer's addon list, which is already pretty weak as far as addons go. That's why everyone universally used the slowdown addons just like every Hag player uses range and setting speed addons.
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