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Should RBTs not be activated by generators?
RBTs are supposed to be scary and slow down the game. However, they don't...
RBTs are supposed to slow down the game yet they are activated by the game progressing. I won't get into the many problems that RBTs have, but do you think that RBTs should be activated instantly or maybe 30 seconds after placed instead of being activated by a generator?
Comments
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Well how does it not slow down the game.... when in principle it prevents progression of the game?
That said, I do feel that activation after 30 seconds and every gen being done after reducing the time you left to get it off, is a cool update for her.
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When survivors can remove their RBT on their first attempt, it doesn't really do anything to halt progression and vice versa if they get it removed last attempt.
I think RBTs should only be removed between first and last Jigsaw Boxes to make both sides happy. 😁
For OP:
If we're going to make them active without the need of a generator, then the EGC must be paused if a survivor has a RBT at that time. Me and @TAG discussed this, it's the best solution available to her without being frustrating or OP. 😁
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Let it be known that I am on principle staunchly against any idea that makes Reverse Bear Traps less good at killing Survivors across the board (except for making huge maps smaller, which would technically make Boxes on those maps closer to each other on average). This includes making the Key never be in the last box, raising the amount of time needed to kill a Survivor, changing the mechanics of the Key to "search X boxes of your own choosing to always get the Key," manually setting the probability of an arbitrary box containing the Key, etc.
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Can someone explain what RBT stands for? Thanks.
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Reverse Bear Trap.
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That makes sense, thanks!
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It's a nice buff, but it'd be an instant 4k.
Endgame pig would return, this time more powerful. It would be a little to easy to win.
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You could easily rectify the buff to Endgame Pig by simply pausing the EGC timer as long as someone is wearing a Reverse Bear Trap. At that point, it is identical to how it was pre-EGC.
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30 seconds is a good idea, as of right now you place an RBT on a survivor and a gen doesn't pop they can just hop on a gen or take it off before it was ever a threat
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It's an interesting question, but I think there's a bit of a loophole in the OP: You don't need to do a generator to take the trap off. If anything, it's probably ideal for you if you don't. You can take your trap off before it's active, and it still slows the game down and takes you away from generators. (This is also why I'd strongly advocate against making Rule Set No. 2 base kit. It forces them to do a generator before searching for boxes.)
On a personal note, I do think it's very fitting that something the survivor does is what activates their trap. It's very fitting to the Saw theme.
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Well literally the first RBT we ..saw.... in saw was activated by Amanda merely standing up, it pulled the pin out and activated the trap applying pressure to Amanda to get the key.
So if we really go by that, merely the survivor moving should activate the trap, compared to which what OP suggest is even more lenient.
But any action apart from a doing a box, meaning: healing, vaulting, gen, pallet drop, failing any skill check, activating the trap could be cool as well.
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You don't need to do a generator to take the trap off. If anything, it's probably ideal for you if you don't.
I think the argument OP is trying to make is that it is actually more ideal on average to simply do the gen anyways and wait until the timer starts before you start pounding away at boxes, which lines up with your reasoning as to why you don't want RSN2 to become base kit.
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I could be convinced otherwise, but I don't see a reason to do that specifically, unless there's a generator at 99% and the killer has been protecting it pretty heavily/you need to stop a 3 gen. Though at that point, the same can be said about any killer. You'd spend just as much time taking the trap off either way you slice it.
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The RBTs are far away from awful. You can think if they should be active right away or not, or whatever you want to think what the RBTs should do or not do, but calling them awful in their current state is simply wrong.
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and ... if activated if an action is performed (healing, sabotage, repair (jigsaw box or gen) and the other operation of the traps would be the same.
One thing more: it would work like the plague, once that trap was active, if it touched a generator, healing, etc ... it would speed up the "explosion" time.
The purpose of these changes is that, if you have the trap active, you must go find the right box and at that time you cannot help your classmates, it is like ... do you prefer to save your classmates? Then die for them.
On the other hand, that the trap is activated by performing an action I see nothing wrong.
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What I don't understand are the pig players that tunnel the person with the RBT to death. That person already has a trap on their head. It's more productive of your time to go after someone else. If the person with the trap is the only person you see, okay that makes sense. No reason to leave them alone. But if you see 2 people and 1 has a trap already on their head why not go after the other person to trap them?
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"Prevents progression" not really when in most cased in most matches the other survivors will still pop gens
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sure, but they are down 1 or more survivors doing so as that 1 or more survivors is going for boxes.
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Flawed logic
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What I would like to actually see is traps activating if survivor misses a skillcheck, since they AVOID an ACTUAL game, so trap add-ons, that do something only when they're active, aren't a complete waste of time (skillcheck difficulty, timers, skillcheck frequency, etc). Maybe change some high rarity add-ons so traps are activated when survs attempt to play the game preemptively.
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The problem is that its just not worth stopping genrush to take off the RBT.
In lower ranks, survs just dont care what will happen to others, and in higher ranks its better to do all gens first and then go look for boxes. So unless you dont stop the genrush by other means (pressuring without using your power) RBTs dont slow down the game.
If RBT timer was reduced every time a gen is completed, then surviviors would feel pressured to stop genrushing and find the key.
Also you shouldnt be able to find the key in the first or the last box, because this is unfavourable for both sides.
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Think of it like this:
Reverse Bear Traps are designed such that even in the worst-case scenario (Gen pops while still on the hook; 2 minute timer because of Tampered Timer and let's say either Jigsaw's Sketch or Crate of Gears), Survivors still have a reasonable and fair chance to get the RBT off before it kills them. The odds of getting the Trap off in time have to be in the Survivors' favor because otherwise, it would mean the kill potential on the Traps is too high (or at the very least, the kill rate when paired with add-ons such as Tampered Timer, Crate of Gears, Jigsaw's Sketch, or even Rules Set No. 2).
With that knowledge in mind, when a Survivor is first off the Hook and their timer has not started yet, they have to consider that the odds are by nature in their favor even in the worst-case scenario. Any additional time they have as a result of the death timer not having started yet is much more often than not playing with house money.
Since the goal of a Reverse Bear Trap in Dead By Daylight is to stall for time as opposed to actually kill, the real goal of the Survivors as far as RBTs is to give the Pig as little benefit from those Traps as they can afford to give. If they choose to start hunting down boxes right away, they are pulling themselves off the Gens and giving the Pig more breathing room (which is what the intended goal is for the Traps). If, however, the person with the Trap instead opts to work on a Generator, it results in two things:
1) The progress of the Generators isn't being slowed down any more than normal (at least, not until the Trapped Survivor chooses to start working on Boxes).
2) The Trapped Survivor is less likely to be ignored by the Pig since they are still threatening to push the Survivors closer to their goal. This puts the Pig in the negative position of either leaving the Trapped Survivor to their whims and conceding that progress to the Survivors or going after them and actively preventing the Traps from slowing down gens.
With all this in mind, a competent Survivor should know that if they choose to play it less safe and keep at the Gens for some time, they are reducing the benefit the Pig is getting from those Traps while at the same time still feeling reasonably assured that they still have a good chance of getting the Trap off in time. Even if they are not as confident in that assurance (maybe they are not the best Survivor in the world, which is reasonable), they are still assured that as long as that clock hasn't started, they are in the clear to balance time working on gens and time working on Boxes in whatever way they deem most comfortable/efficient. Do a box, back to gens. Maybe do two boxes, back to gens. They can afford to put in whatever amount of time into gens they feel comfortable with before they decide "Maybe it's time to start working on getting this trap off."
This all means that strong Survivors are able to maximize their amount of time on Gens and delay the stall potential until the Pig has lost a gen, and less strong but still competent Survivors are still able to put some time into Gens and still delay that Trap benefit (even if less than the strong Survivors). Only the weaker Survivors who are not able to properly balance safety and efficiency will not be able/willing to do much other than go right for the boxes (or potentially die due to them overestimating themselves), but at that point, they're probably not the ones the Pig has to worry the most about when it comes to slowing down the game.
Post edited by TAG on0 -
I think htat was exaggerating. I don't tunnel or camp boxes as pig and I don't see that very often. What I experience is, it happens rarely when a chase comes close to me on a box, then I get probably just downed so I have to waste the time again searching the box, to probably die to the timer.
I also don't think that the RBTs are bad atm. Their main purpose is not to kill, and it is unlikely that all traps are removed at the first box. So just running and searching takes 30 seconds roughly (?) per box you ned to search. That's quite a bit.
I also don't see how they are not a threat. If they are not active, they can't kill you. But what do you expect from the game? No gens popping? There will be the time when they activate and then they are a threat. I do at least one box I'm close to, also when the trap isn't active yet. Just to have sufficient time to get it off. If it is the 4th box that you can pull it off, you nearly can't take any disturbance or you will die, just because you didn't treat it as threat while inactive. If you wanna gamble like "it won't be the 4th one" then it's your choice, but it is definitely a threat.
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So yeah it would be slow down... Albiet i have seen survivors just hammer out gens even when they are the one with the RBT which may be one kill if they aren't fast enough.
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I wasn't implying you were tunneling someone with a trap. Tunneling is an over used word. I was just pointing out that it's more productive as killer to trap someone else instead of going after the person with a trap already on their head.
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I honestly think RBT shouldnt be able to be removed before its activated. Though i can see it being annoying for survivors. A better compromise would be
-Rules Set #2 being BASE pig
-Rules set #2 changed to "Survivors cannot remove RBT that are not active"
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RBTs don't slow down the game. Unless mine is ticking away, I go work on gens for a while. There's no real pressure from them until it actually starts ticking, and even then it is map dependent. Small maps, or easily navigable ones, I'll work through a whole gen if it hasn't started yet.
They feel like a gimmick and have no real power to alter a match unless the Survivors are legitimate potatoes. Not to mention they are completely negated when the final generator is popped. There is no other Killer that loses half their base Power when the generators are finished. Imagine making the Hillbilly unable to sprint with his chainsaw when the 5th gen is done. He can rev it, and OHKO, but no sprinting.
I enjoy playing as Amanada, but she has lost a lot of power with changes made to the game and needs to be buffed.
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Pig can be right click to win, do you think survivors hesitate to pop gens due to rbts?
Not only do they potentially take a few tries to remove, they force you to go to places that are very open (and you're probably already injured).
Pig is the paypig. Its played by the same kind of people that like rng lootboxes or people that spend hundreds of dollars on Korean skinnerbox mmos.
Tl:dr sure make them go off randomly in matches. Yo dawg I heard you like rng, let me put more rng in your rng so you can rng while you rng.
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What? I'm not entirely sure what you are trying to say here.
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Ok?
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I just wish her traps also activated when the endgame collapse starts so she can still get use out of them. A survivor can still have their trap activate when the last gen goes off and the EGC can start 20 seconds later. So the survivor would still have to deal with two timers in that scenario.
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I'd rather just have Traps auto-start when all the gens are done and make it so EGC timer is paused while someone has a Trap on. Basically like how it used to be prior to EGC nerf.
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I would be ok with that too. Besides Freddy, Pig is the only one whose power becomes partially useless once the last gen is powered. If she still has traps by endgame, she should be able to use them.
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Agreed.
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I feel no pressure or stress even when my trap is activated. The timer is way too reasonable for Survivors to escape it.
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I also agree, I wouldn't mind if the EGC timer was paused if it meant being able to actually use RBTs endgame.
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It's the option of how you act and your following decisions with a Inactive or Active RBT that matters.
Kinda how while I see the appeal of RSN2 base I see it as removing an option which is more harmful than beneficial. Her ability is meant to slow down the game and her RBT are RNG based. By removing options you harm the slowdown effectively.
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Yeah, and when it activates, you need to remove it. Then it slows down the game
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You list 6 reasons which are only 4. Meh.
Anyway, I will go over your 4 reasons:
- They are limited
They NEED to be limited. Imagine how frustrating it would be to get a Beartrap after every Down. The game would be slowed down way too much. 4 is enough, even tho, I would like to get a Add On which give two Extra-Hats.
- They are totally under survivors` control. They decide should RBT activate or not by doing a gen. 99ing a gen is always a solution, it is not punished enough to not be considered.
I would not say that they are "totally" under Survivors control. If we compare it to Cruel Limits (a Perk which will be buffed in the Future), this thing is totally under Survivors Control. But Beartraps? Not really. They need to do a Gen in order to get the Objective done and you can run around and spend your time not on Gens with an inactive Beartrap. And if they really 99 the Gens (I have never seen it, neither as Survivor, nor when playing Pig myself) you can kick it and it is still good Slowdown.
- They are random. Will survivor remove it on first try or on the last? No one knows.
Being random is not a bad thing. I made a longer post about some Pig Changes a while ago and one Bullet Point was that it should not be removed at the first Box. (And another one was to decrease the Rarity of Amandas Letter and introduce a new Add On which let the Key be in the last Box every time). Not being the first is fine, but I dont think it should be more than that, at least Base.
- They are not useful in lategame making pig significantly weaker after losing all generators.
They are not meant to be used in Endgame, Devs said this during their Livestream when they introduced the EGC. And usually, I get all my Traps to work before Endgame, and I am pretty sure that this will be the case for many Killers, if a potato like myself can get this. In theory, if you are not tunneling someone with a Trap, you need 4 Downs to get rid of all of your RBTs. Does not sound too difficult.
To your proposal:
- A survivor ALWAYS needed to search through *All Jigsaw Boxes on the map minus 1*
This as Base would be horrible. This could mean that you would need to search 5 Boxes, on a huge Map this could be already death. And while RBTs should be a Slowdown Tool, they should not be too powerful, resulting in a Death almost every time when used.
- Pig had useful secondary power.
This is something I agree with, the Dash can be nice, but it is really clumsy to use (like, I used STBFL on my Pig for a while, but it is too annoying to use the Dash on the Obsession the whole time) and I mostly only use it when the Survivor is outpositioned anyway. The Dash should be more worth to use.
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For 10-60 seconds (RNG dependent), a single Survivor is not doing gens. Sometimes less, sometimes they die. This is not slowing down the game in a significant way.
You are going to lose 1-3 gens during your first chase. Hopefully, hopefully you can get the down + beartrap before they pop. Most of the time, this is not the case for your average Killer. So you now have anywhere from 2-4 gens worth of time you can utilize for the remaining traps you have left. Do you really think that small bit of time it takes to get a beartrap off affects the game in a meaningful way?
Amanda can camp the boxes. Now she's not pressuring gens so the game is lost.
She can patrol like a normal Killer, maybe using her Stealth to an advantage. She has nothing to utilize during a chase other than the basic Killer tactics. Her lunge... it's a slight buff if you can use it properly, but I've yet to face a Pig that can even though I've seen a few videos of people using it to their advantage. She's still weak against everything all the other Killers are weak against.
I've played against quite a few Pigs who didn't even get to use all their traps before the gens were powered. Some were potato, some were new to the Pig and were hurting from their previous Killer's rankups, but quite a few were pretty solid all around. Even some were great in chases and mindgames. The fact that half her power is gone as soon as the gens are powered significantly hurts her when the early/mid games go so quickly.
Her beartraps should activate even when all gens are powered. The timer for EGC should go to the slower timer that is standard when a Survivor is downed/hooked. Just having this alone will give her a little extra power in the endgame to make up for her lack of mobility and M1 Killerness in the early/mid games.
The devs have already stated that they expect early gens to be done quick, and Killers need to adjust to this. That's fine, but when a Killer's power is centered around slowing down gens and keeping as many unpowered as possible so they can maximize their ability, that's when it becomes an issue.
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Yes I think it can affect the game. Not always flips the coin, but it helps a lot. I recently played a lot of Demogorgon and most of the matches start with 1 down vs 1 gen done, followed by the next down and another 1-2 gens. And then the game starts rolling. You have 2 people on hooks or one recently unhooked, they are healing, not working on gens, another one unhooking and hopefully another one in a chase already.
That's where you get the pressure and need to keep it up to win the game. And if in addition to all the unhooks, chases and heals there are also constantly 1-2 survivors taking care of their RBTs, there can be situations where noone is working on gens. RBTs give you the remote pressure, other killers need to build up by map presence.
If you are lucky and all 4 RBTs take 60 seconds to get rid off, you won 4 minutes of gen protection. That can throw the game. If you are unlucky and win 40 seconds in total, you almost waste more time putting the traps on than you get from it. But depending on the game flow, the bear traps can cause survivors get to second state on hook, or easily get you into another chase because survivors need to run once the trap is active, or they would probably not even finish 3 boxes
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Btw, not topic of OP, but being a stealth killer is already not the weakest of powers. Easy first hits, run nurses and you get easy downs as well. Agreed that her dash is not the strongest power, but uncounterable stealth whenever you want is definitely pretty strong.
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Agree with this statement the amount of times I've seen survivors with reverse bear trap doing generators makes it feel like it's not stalling out the game at all.
Because people feel more than confident enough to do generators and and get the trap off with no issue
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Suggestion:
Have Amanda decide on when the trap activates.
You put the trap on someone.
- By default, it activates after a Generator has been completed
- Press M2 again to cycle through the different settings (activate when survivor stands up and moves, or maybe when he does an action)
I guess that would make endgame reverse bear traps a thing again, or the option to change the settings could just not be there after all generators are done.
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This would be pretty interesting. Set a condition for each hat that's put on. When a survivor starts doing the condition, they hear a noise like a wire tightening for about 2 seconds, and activate with the sound of a wire snapping. They can interrupt the action when they hear this and then they know what the trigger is, or they can power through it and the trap gets activated right at that moment. Have it cycle through popping a gen, healing another survivor, using an item, or working on a totem. Modify one of her less-good add-ons to take away the ability to cycle the trigger, but replace it with things like activating the trap when the survivor is unhooked, or picked up from the dying state. Maybe extend the timer for those to keep the trap from being overly oppressive.
This would allow survivors to choose how much risk they want to play with, and actually make them change up their tactics if the Pig plays with her hats well.
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Why would I pick anything other than "When Survivor stands up and moves?"
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Because to Amanda, it's a mind game, and it would ######### with the survivor's mind. But yeah, giving the option would definitely make them just go get it off (which is honestly usually what they already do anyway, wether it's active or not..)
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