New perks are just not good enough
Am I the only one that feels the devs are scared to make strong perks now? I think the Mettle of Man debacle has caused future perks to be too weak. Many new perks have long cooldowns, multiple conditions to activate, etc. They're just too niche to have real power.
I'm not excited for Chapter 15 for this reason, and the same could be said about the Oni and Stranger Things DLCs as well. There seems to be 1 decent perk in the bunch and then the rest are straight-up filler to clog my bloodwebs.
I just find the new content underwhelming. Anyone agree with me?
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what are you talking about red herring will be extremely frustrating on early game and for the people is gonna be new meta for swf players.. on killer side... heh yeah.. crap no comment.
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Red Herring will be used for sandbagging primarily. I don't think it's that great.
Sure, For the People can be good in SWF but not in solo queue. And you have to sacrifice one of your god perks to run it (Adrenaline, BT, Unbreakable, Dead Hard, DS). I don't see For the People as better than any of the perks I listed.
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Just to make it clear, not all perks are designed to be the new best. Specifically making things that are going to be the new best is how power creep happens, and that's not something we want. Often times we'll make perks that offer alternative ways to play. Something like Head On might not be that powerful, but it's fun to use and adds some variety to the game.
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Sure, but some should be designed to be the new meta, the game's getting really stale with the lack of good enough perks for people who like to play competetively. The last really good killer perk we got was Plague's Infectious Fright, that was almost a whole year ago, survivors are in a bit better spot, with the last meta perk being Nancy's Inner Strenght. (which is getting a counter this DLC) The meta needs shakeup in my opinion, so much so that I wouldn't be against disabling some powerfull perks for a duration of a chapter ...
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Gearhead sounds like a good alternative to discordance on M1 killers, just saying
Iron maiden
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I only feel this for Killer Side tbh
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I was talking about Hex: Retribution, which gives survivors who cleanse dull totems the oblivious status effect, maybe not a "hard counter" per say, but it definetly makes it a bit less great all around :P
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Power Creep is one thing; having multiple chapters in a row where nearly every killer and survivor perk is total garbage is another. The latter is the state of the game.
The meta has been the same for a long time, other than the balance team destroying Ruin, because only a few perks are viable in this era. Killers are weaker than ever, and instead of addressing the problem, the balance team does nothing. They create more bad perks that have 0 use in red/purple ranks, and nothing changes because it is impossible to win against a good team without running perks like Pop, BBQ, SF+Enduring, etc, i.e. meta perks.
Power Creep is absolutely not a problem in this game; this isn't Overwatch.
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I'd argue that many "meta" perks should be toned down.
We're only going to see mediocre perks from now on since it seems the devs learned their lessons about their flawed perk designs in the past.
It's fine, but they're all going to feel mediocre and lame as long as the stronger meta perks remain unchanged.
Ruin is a good example of a strong (lul) perk that needed to be changed for the good of the game.
Toolboxes and sabo changes are a result of the ruin change.
As such, the stronger perks like Ds and many other survivor perks should be looked at to control the overall speed of matches. By taking away or limiting current meta perks further to match the "mediocre" new perks that we're currently getting.
If balance is the goal, we should be seeing "changes" (nerfs) to all of the meta perks in the near future.
I hope anyway.
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Thanks for clarifying for me. I don't want every new perk to be top tier, but the meta is stagnant and needs variety. Most of the recent perks just aren't good enough to break the mold.
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Power creep is arguably more of an issue in Dead by Daylight since we have paid DLCs and both sides don't have access to the same things. If a hero is too powerful in Overwatch, that's alright because both sides can pick them and everyone has them.
I'd have to respectfully disagree about every recent perk being bad. I regularly use perks like Inner Strength, Any Means Necessary, and Nemesis.
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I'm definitely looking forward to the new perks, and I think that anyone who thinks they are weak is having trouble understanding how to use them in a creative manner.
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I see your point, but I would rather they buff weaker perks than nerf the stronger ones. Toning things down and having all perks be average for the sake of balance just isn't fun.
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This is how perks should be. Perks that allow a specific build or supplement gameplay, not strong enough to change the game completely.
If only they were made like this from day 1...
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I disagree only because that'd be very boring. Sure, perks like Zanshin Tactics "supplement gameplay." But is it fun and exciting to use? No.
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Dead Hard isnt that great on Dedicated servers, or at least not as good as it used to be. The only time I become incredibly aggravated by it is when I'm playing huntress and I get the blood spatter, hit sound, and survivor scream but they keep running because "150 ms doesnt matter".
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I think it is less to do with fear and more so to do with all the garbage killers in the game. A strong perk makes bad killers better. It makes the 4 or 5 good killers unstoppable.
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I would argue that a lot of recent killer perks have been great. I'm All Ears is awesome. Thrilling Tremors has awesome synergy with PGTW. Nemesis has great synergy with PWYF. Blood Echo is solid. Demogorgon's perks are super duper bad, I won't argue that. Infectious Fright and Corrupt Intervention are good. Gearhead could be good. Dead Man's Switch might have some synergy with Ruin, especially if its conditional activation changes. And Hangman's Trick looks like the best tracking perk in the game if it goes live.
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I'm not sure how that was taken as a personal insult. Why would there be any shame in getting perks from the shrine? That's why it's there, there's nothing wrong with that. Given the large and still growing number of perks in the game, it could be a long time before a perk appears in the shrine. Even so, a perk appearing in the shrine doesn't make it any more fun to go against.
We aren't aiming to make every new perk the new best, and we aren't trying to convince you that they are. They give you different ways to play the game. Some might be very effective, some might just be more for fun.
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I play as a "perkless" killer from time to time. Gives me a challenge.
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peanits you know what is really sad ? and im curious if you answer this : if survivors are complaining about something you immediately impelement some anti counter to it - for the people is definite answer to slugging so middle finger to kilers who tried just slowing game because you in order to gain new rank 20 people destroyed early game so theres no early game and killers are pretty much forced to same perks, 3 gen strategy, noed, mori etc... gj on that btw..
but if killers are complaining about something - DS,unbreakable, BT, adrenaline, you just wave hand and say no its fine lets rework self care which no one cares about and only beginner players are using this perk.. such disgusting ...
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It think you're forgetting about all the changes the survivor side has seen over the years. Even DS, like you mentioned, was actually nerfed about a year ago. Toolboxes are getting toned down in the next update as well. We make changes to both sides where needed.
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I'd argue that DS was "changed", not nerfed. Since enduring doesn't decrease its stun anymore, DS's stun length has not been reduced, whether or not the DS user is the obsession doesn't matter anymore, and dribbling can no longer counter the perk, it has become much more oppressive. I would honestly rather play this game with the old version of DS than the current one.
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Thrilling Tremors. :)
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Thrilling Tremors what?
It COUNTERS every regression perk in the game.... And its a killer perk...
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From what I have gathered here as of late, is that the devs are trying to open up perks to be more synergy friendly. It was in their last little survey deal...
Not saying it’s a 100% success, but it looks like a route they are trying to take.
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If I remember in the past only ONE person can DS you.. know ? if you run it sure DS killer so killer can be DSed 4 times in match is it fun for killer ? no..
you are talking that head on is fun to use.. yeah sure for survivors right ? again feels dev notes which were survivor sided ? why are you always talking about this is fun for survivors.. but never talking what is fun for killers.. I know your job is tough becasue game is really unbalanced, broken and a lot of players are complaining due to frurastration but please ..:)
I understand why you designed for the people and stuff like that but imagine you as killer do you think it would be fun to not be able to hook survivor becasue they are on comms and they can literally brake hook during your killer animation ? and then heal someone from dying state which you finally got him becasue he was throwing all pallets on you for like a minute ? and then they will escape via teabagging and talking ######### only becasue so many second chances perks etc.. am I frustrated ? yes as most of the killers..
I understand survivors should have some second chance perks or something to keep them in game, but thing is babyhanding new players are cousing even more problems
but I like you from dev streams, and I love this game
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Thrilling tremors is actually pretty decent, and Id actually argue for surge (although a buff to make it more universally useful amongst killers would be nice). Nemesis has also made it into afew of my builds as well. The devs have also done a good job at tweeking older perks to make them useful. Surveillance, detective's hunch and pretty soon hangman's trick are all examples of this.
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but the problem is @Peanits it always feels like for the killer community that its a constant fight for our voices to be heard the DS was nerfed but it still a issue today and we have shown so much videos showing that the DS is still a issue that it grants a mintue of immunity or you lose momentum and i cant see why you cant add the condition that if someone else is hooked it deactived it make it a true anti tunnel perk something that the killer community is crying for.
Over the past few months its been changes after changes to killers vast majoirity had a negative feedback Nurse, legion, ruin etc and vast majority of survivors related changes was to fix an exploits the only big key changes for survivors is the med kits and tool boxes. This has cause some of the killer community to feel like you are just catering to one side (the dev post regarding doc changes and ruin did not help matters btw)
Regarding we make changes to both sides where needed i hope there are more changes regarding the gen speed as it seems even the ptb that gen speed are still a issue any news regarding that and any potential future changes to gens?
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In the past, all four survivors could DS you. In fact it originally allowed everyone to DS the killer the first time they were picked up- whether they were hooked or not- without even needing to wiggle. It was later toned down so they had to wiggle a bit unless they were the obsession, but one or two people blocking you at the start of the game meant losing all of your momentum. Considering now I can avoid it completely, I'd much rather go against the current version than the old versions.
As for Head On, I don't mind getting hit by it at all. They chose to use Head On instead of a much stronger Exhaustion perk (like Dead Hard).
As for the latter half, I don't have to imagine that, I play killer on a regular basis. I play more killer than I do survivor, even.
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What about Furtive chase, Curel Limits, Mindbreaker, Zanshin tactics. Do you often see those perks? Those are nearly half of 9 perks that had been released recently. They have no synergy and are uselles on it's own.
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Sure, you can avoid it completely now by letting the unhooked survivor do whatever for a whole minute. If you come close, all they need to do is jump in a locker. You either avoid it by leaving and having them still be injured, or you don't avoid it, eat the stun, and they are, still, injured.
The perk still has massive flaws. It needs a proper nerf that prevents it from being abused.
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you are right head on is much better choice than different exhasuted perk.. im not talking about dead hard which due to dedicated servers are almost useless and once I know survivor has it it doesnt matter so yeah only scry exhaustion perk is sprint burst, but its unfun for killer to just get stunned from lock
I know its hard to balance this crappy mess I understand it, but Im saying giving suvivors too much power is bad for health of the game.. you cant save bad,new or unskilled survivors even with tons of second chance perks .. if you slightly buff low ranks you really buff high rank and crazy buff swf thats what is irritating..
if swf would be implemented from the start of the game this game would like so much better and healthier ... I understand sickness of swf and unbalance of that just cant be balanced so pls stop giving them even more power
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Having perks be too strong is a bigger issue than having weak perks. MoM's initial release for example showed a clear advantage for everyone who owned Ash over ppl who didnt. The devs dont want to make the game pay 2 win. Its ok if some perks are meh, its not ok if you have DLC perks that are OP. As far as some of our weaker perks though, they HAVE been getting tweeked. Surveillance use to be god awful, and the next update is bringing up hangman's trick as well.
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Hex:retribution
Cleansing dull totems procs Oblivious on that person while cleansing Hex totems show's all survivor's auras for 10 seconds.
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Lol Imagine thinking yui was useless.
When killers get sick of chasing me or dont break pallets, I find her useful.
When facing the oni, or playing any build where I dont want to be tracked, I again, find her useful.
When another survivor helps me bodyblock and we just need a FEW moments, I find her useful.
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The oblivious part is kinda meh, but if your using a build with alot of hex perks... those 10 second aura reads could be nice. The new perk thats kinda turning my head is Gearhead. Feel like that might replace surveillance or discordance on afew builds. New Hangman's trick is also gonna be getting abit of attention. Its pretty much just a better BBQ without the BP bonus.
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Except hangman trick as it stands now isn't going live. One of the devs stated that. Its too strong.
@peanits i understand not wanting to put god tier perks behind a paywall. As a business decision I love it and commend you all! However, as a consumer with limited spare money, why should i buy the new chapters? I mean without decent perks, survivors are skins. Killers are good, but as someone who isn't on the level of most streamers with under 1000 hours playing both sides, killer is near impossible to play. There's no time to learn anything. Nobody there to hold your hand or help you if you make a mistake.
Why buy a killer when my yellow rank is going against red ranks and i can't even down someone?
I've bought this game and all dlcs twice except for the last one. It's safe to say i love this game. I want to support it. I don't want it to the. But its hard to purchase new content when i will most likely never use any of the perks? Stranger things had 9 perks, of which ive used 2 on survivor side and none on killer as i just dont have the perks to go with nemesis on any of the killers i like playing.
Hex: retribution is the only perk that interests me from the new set. Is that 1 perk worth 16 dollars (id have to buy it twice)?
Tl:dr Give me reason to spend real money instead of shards. Please. I'm begging lol.
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Can you post a link where a dev stated its gonna change before going live? Im not calling you a liar or anything, just wanna see. Im interested to see whats gonna happen to it.
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I love the insistence that new perks have to be The Best to be worth using. Maybe consider how, if you can safely predict three out of the four perks that every survivor will use, maybe they're too strong? So many words are wasted expressing how much DS can ruin every single killer match, just to be met with the mantra of "Don't tunnel and you won't be DSed!", as though a minute is a reasonable amount of time to have to ignore another player, especially when the full point of the role is to chase and kill those same players. Heaven forbid that you're actually decent at chasing someone, and punishing them for being bad at hiding. Or even worse, punished for just hitting the person who's crouching in front of you specifically because they know they have a get-out-of-jail-free card.
You just have to make it so the meta perks are in line with the rest of the perks that are released. It's not interesting to only see five or six perks out of all the ones available in every single match.
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I don't expect every new perk to be meta, but it's really dissapointing when you try to make perk work, but it's so uselles, that it simply doesn't no matter what.
My point is, that they do not fit in any build, you cab't do anything with those perk.
Look at bloodech for example.It suerly isn't a good perk, but i like to use it because i actually see if a person have used deadhard, and didn't heal. Next time i was chasing a person affected by bloodecho, i was certain that they can't use any exhauation perk.
What about mindbreaker?
It's a worst type of perk. It's passive, you never know if its working or not. You can't have fun using it, because you don't know if it did anything.
I would rather have medicore perks that work every game like surge (or in current DLC, i like all of them, and im honestly suprised that this DLC didn't had any trash tier perk)
Or have combo potential with otheras like nemesis.
But you can't have fun using Curel Limits blocking 2-3 windows on the opposite side of the map.
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a perk you can get
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Okay but while this is true, it would also end up making certain sets of plays redundant.
Beast of Prey, for example, doesnt offer an alternative form of play. It rewards you too little too late.
If BoP worked on a token system, maybe it would be more worth it to keep hitting Bloodlust, as prolonging chases would have more permanence. Like for every time you hit a Bloodlust tier, you get a token for a max of 10 tokens, which grants you 5 seconds of Undetectable after ending a chase while Beast of Prey is active. This would greatly reward prolonged chases more than it does now.
Some perks are either too useless, too situational with little reward, or just has too many variables. Yes, not all of them have to be meta changing but they should at least keep up with the current meta perks in terms of being useful.
Cruel Limits in particular is pretty ######### insulting as a perk. No changes for two chapters now.
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Zashin Tactics is terrible.
DS wasnt nerfed, it was reworked and is actually better. Toolboxes arent nerfed in the PTB, they have been made more useful.
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Pls don't give any ideas to blizzard and lol lmao
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Not really, power creepy almost doesn't exist in this game for killers, because killers haven't received any significant buffs recently. Just nerfs. Oni is a very strong killer, bit other than that? Legion Nerf, Pig Nerf, Ruin nerf, small Trapper and Plague buffs (but they suck already, so it doesn't change things). It's a problem in OW because Reaper and Mei get buffed to deal with GOATs, then 2/2/2 becomes implemented and suddenly Reaper and Mei are meta up to OWL level.
We can look at the last 3 chapters.
Demogorgon has 2 trash perks and 1 decent but still not great perk. Steve has 3 trash perks. Nancy has 1 good perk, 1 mediocre perk, 1 trash perk. So that's 1/9.
Oni DLC. Oni has 2 trash perks and 1 mediocre perk that only is useful sometimes with certain builds. Yui has 2 trash perks and 1 that is trash most of the time but is decent against bad killers or in a highly coordinated team.
And this latest DLC. The new surv has 1 trash perks, 1 that is the same as Any Means Necessary in functionality (Red Herring), and 1 good perk. The Deathslinger, in addition to being a weak killer, has 1 decent perk and 2 trash perks.
So, at the very best, out of the last 21 perks being released, you have 2 good perks, that are on survivor. And even then, neither of these are as strong as meta perks. Iron Will, Sprint Burst, Adrenaline, new Saboteur, Borrowed Time, Head On. And this isn't even considering killers. None of the last 3 DLC's have had a new meta perk. The best perk is looking like either Gearhead (which is worse than Discordance, Surveillance, or Thrilling Tremors) or Nemesis, which is so niche that you can't consider it meta.
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Survivors get instaheal in perkform back. Like how can you say that is bad? You can reset an entire chase with no effort at all which was the reason why it was nerfed in the first place and now they add it back in just as perk. Oh no you are broken for 90 seconds, oh ######### no, good ######### that you can add borrowed time via two buttons.
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To use your 2 examples, Blood echo is handy to combo with a killer like Plague in which its pretty common to see people injured all game. Legion also pulls it off pretty well.
As far as Mindbreaker goes, I feel like this works best on stealth killers. Preventing a survivor from sprint bursting away as you come around the corner as a scratched mirror myers is pretty vital. A survivor with Sprint burst is practically untouchable against scratched mirror since its so hard to get ground if the initial approach fails.
Ultimately what Im saying is, while many perks wont be universally helpful to the entire cast... Alot of perks still have decent synergy with certain killers in ways you might not have thought about right away. That doesnt mean I wouldnt mind seeing some buffs here and there. Cruel limits is pretty lackluster even in the best of situations and monsterous shrine... needs a rework. With the devs going through and reworking some of the bad perks in the game, like survalence and soon to be Hangman's trick, I think they're doin alright.
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Personally, I think MoM was intentionally made too be OP too sell more DLC. Literally no way in hell did the devs test it and genuinely thought it wouldn't be broken.
I agree that the perks are never game changers, but that's because the game hasn't changed in 3 years. The biggest change since I've played (around clowns release) was EGC, which doesn't even effect the meta. Until the core gameplay changes too be more then just do gens, the same meta perks will always be the go to, and any other perk that doesn't fit the Gen Rush Meta will always be bad.
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Strong perks are a big part of what makes the game incredibly difficult to balance. Strong perks imo should be saved for the biggest issues of the base game like hook camping and looping.
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