Question Regarding God Loops/"Infinites"
Those God Loops/"Infinites" always involve a window that survivor can use without a risk (Except some killers) and are able to waste a lot of the killers time just by using these windows (for example the window in the main building from Iron Works of Misery in the picture below).As a killer you are forced to break the chase if a survivor manages to get to one of these windows and ignore that part of the map.
So my question is,why can't these very strong windows get closed?
It would be an easy change to implement and a HUGE step towards balancing maps.Furthermore every map that features a god loop/"Infinite" has more than enough strong windows and palletts for survivors to work with so they don't need these god loops anyway.
What do you think?
Comments
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Apparently this is too hard. I also dont know how something like the Ironworks Window can still be in the game (even tho, I would put a doorway nearby to give the Window some use, but make it much weaker). Instead they are testing breakable Walls now, which will most likely (if they are implemented into other Maps) the Tool to bandaid-fix those Loops.
Poor implementation tho, better hope they will be scrapped.
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They made it a little less infinite by putting up some objects so you can catch up.
All I can say is that I lose all respect of survivors who keep going to windows like that, its just pathetic, I tend to just throw the game at that point and just sit in the basement untill they all leave.
If they dont want to play, fine, no game for anyone.
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It's really not that hard to counter them, just know what they are and don't chase through them. You can run bamboozle if you hate them that much. Tons of killers have built-in powers to stop them.
The alternative to safe pallets is the disaster that is Hawkins, where the killer gets a free hit at half the pallets and they are only useful to throw and keep running. I don't even try to loop on Hawkins, I just throw every pallet in a chase like a bot because most of them are that unsafe.
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Breakable walls seem to be a good mechanic, as long as they're done to counter these exact problems. Just gotta wait for them to implement them in the new map reworks... whenever they get around to them.
It would be interesting if they also created another mechanic where windows would degrade and fully open after a few fast vaults, but it might be too much depending on how breakable walls affect the reworks.
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God loops are so brain dead, they take 0 skill.
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Most of the new maps take 0 skill as a killer. There is almost nothing to work with on maps like Dead Dawg Saloon, Hawkins, Sanctum of Wrath, etc.
Even the shack is nerfed in Dead Dawg, it's terrible. Survivors should just teleport to the hook once you get seen on maps like those, because there is very little else you can do. Hide in a bush all game? That's what you should do? That's what the map seems to want you to do.
I like maps that have some safety for the survivors. It rewards map knowledge for both sides, knowing which chases to take, and which to abandon. There's plenty of survivors even at red ranks who are totally unaware of infinites.
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I’d prefer a lot more pallets but they are more unsafe, or you could add less pallets but make them more safe
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Then it's Hawkins. Where every pallet is almost a free hit. It doesn't take any skill to mindgame a pallet where it takes maybe 1 second to hide your red stain (if you even need to) and go to the other side. Or if you screw it up enough you get a free hit with bloodlust.
The macmillan and coldwind unsafe pallets are what the game should have. You actually get a chance to outplay the killer at the pallet and move onto another loop, instead of just taking free damage because you didn't stun the killer in the world of dedicated server hits.
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Because the devs are biased against killers.
The game is four years old and yet these god loops still exist.
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Its been 4 years, they're the most common topic and essentially nothing has been done. All of their bandaid fixes are specifically tuned, that they make no difference in gameplay. At this point, i have given up on this game. You cant even spend a single dime on the balance team to fix your oldest, fundamental problem. Then live with a dying killer community
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Half the killers in the game counter them. At red ranks most people are running killers that hard counter looping. Any M1 killer can also run bamboozle. Four years of playing and you still don't realize that?
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These windows should not exist in the first place. It's bad map design.
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So it's better to have maps where there are just massive deadzones and all the survivors have is some bushes to hide in? That's bad map design. Maps where you are almost forced to play immersed instead of getting to the good part of the game (chases) is pretty boring.
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Survivors don't need god loops and a plethora of ultra safe pallets to win.
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And killers don't need freddy / nurse / spirit / hag / any number of busted add-ons / busted perks / mori's / etc to win. But yet I go against them all the time.
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I will disagree with your first point on the idea of god windows being ok, especially in this meta. The idea that in order to counter is to drop a chase hurts the killer more than ever now, and using a perk should not have to be the only way to keep going. I am going to agree with whoever said it above me: put doors that make the windows still have use, but not be as powerful as before.
I do agree with your point that unsafe pallets are too plentiful. They should add more safe loops to the newer maps, but get rid of some safe loops in others. It isn't fun to have 2 jungle gyms and a killer shack back to back.
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Thank you Peanits, very cool!
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I mean telling killers to use a perk to counter bad map design would be like survivors getting told to run resilience and spine chill to not get hit through windows,right?
Both things are incredible frustrating for each side.
Many people are frustrated with these kind of loops because there is no counter play to them (unless you use certain killers or perks)
Each side should have the chance to outplay their opponent.
And nobody is asking for maps with only deadzones.I would love to have more maps like Coal Tower or Father Campells Church.Both Maps are smaller than the rest and have pallets and windows that are not too strong or too weak.
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Changes to God Loops?Finally
Thank you Peanits ^^
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How many maps are going to have breakable walls?
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I think they said they wanted to implement them in every map over time.
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To be honest, I've given up on chasing people who use loops like this. Last week I had a survivor who was mad that I wouldn't chase them all game, but every time I chased them, they ran to that very specific window. So I just chased other people, I ended up with a 3k and that guy getting out unhooked via hatch.
He was so mad that I didn't chase him and couldn't understand why I refused to run that loop. There are just loops in this game that I wont run, I would rather tunnel someone else then run a loop that is going to be a 1.5 minute chase.
EDIT: to be clear, I prefer to not Tunnel and would like to chase those people, but just running to over safe loops like that... Like if you wanna abuse the game, then so will I.
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Hell yeah !
Now we need the same treatment for the main building window on Rancid Abattoir and Groaning Storehouse :please:
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They did hint at more map changes, so you never know ;)
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Thank you for the Screenshot. Now I just hope that this is not just a breakable Wall, but an actual doorway.
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oooooof cant wait to see that ingame!
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Honestly, the way this game is headed.....you just die in 20~ seconds whenever the killer finds you. That's already how it is for many of the current killers and new maps. Even the shack is nerfed on new maps because baby killers can't handle it. It's kinda sad.
They can balance the game around M1 killers but just ignore how incredibly overpowered it will make the killers who already counter looping.
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What's the problem with breakeable walls though? I actually like the idea of windows being safe at first, and only becoming less safe once the nearby wall is broken. So the safety of windows change during a match.
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Ikr
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In my opinion the Killer should not have to spend 2.6 seconds (if I am not mistaken, this is the time to break the wall) to actually play the game. Because I think it is a bad use of breakable Walls when they are mandatory to be broken, and this is the case for almost all the Killers when this is a breakable wall.
I mean, a breakable Wall would still be better than the current loop, this is for sure. But why let the Killer spend time to break it, when he will 100% be doing that? There is no real option to keep the wall intact.
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Yeah, survivors should just spawn on the hook. They are slowly and surely removing all ways for survivors to express skill in the game. If you have the map knowledge and skill to loop a killer for 3+ gens using just the shack and a few jungle gym pallets alone; you should honestly be able to do that. Because you are better than them in a chase, and should be rewarded. And the killer should be punished for his poor decision making.
Now? Nah, just hold W at the survivors while they mindlessly toss the unsafe pallets. Hide in a bush all game.
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I honestly don't think so.
I often times get downed quite quickly but that's because i also make a lot of mistakes.So that's something one hasto work on
Sanctum of Wrath is pretty ok (better than the other version of yamaoka estate)
But i do agree that Hawkins and the Saloon are quite hard to work with as survivor (although i don't understand how the shack is nerfed on saloon)
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Sorry, I dont see any Skill in using the Ironworks Window. I use it myself when I am Survivor and at this structure, but I dislike Survivors who abandon good structures, just to run to the Window, because they dont know how to loop properly. And the most skillful thing a Survivor can do is using multiple structures combined to be efficient and time-wasting. When a good Survivor needs 4 Pallets to loop the Killer for 3 minutes, a really good Survivor might do that with 1 or 2 Pallets.
But running the same structure 3 times until Entity Blocker kicks in or just getting rid of the Killer because he cannot afford to chase there is not skillful.
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I think they should just scrap the idea of breakable walls.It seems so useless.Either the wall has to be broken or it's useless.
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the new map is the worst. full od extremely unsafe pallets
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A few things:
1. There should never be a building on a map so strong that survivors outright ignore the resources around it to beeline to towards it. Disturbed Ward, Ironworks, Coal Tower, Grim Pantry, Ormond, Dead Dawg, etc, all have these. It's a bad design philosophy IMO because it's too narrowly focused on low rank survivor play.
2. Resource efficiency should actually be a consequential mechanic relative to objective speed for survivors. I say this as a rank 1 survivor/killer. Camping and dropping overly safe pallets should never be viable. Survivors should have to play well to win, as should killers. Going through 10 pallets before a generator is done should be catastrophic for survivors. Instead, it's often somehow game over for the killer.
3. The idea of breakable walls is good, but I think Dead Dawg was overly safe with them. This is maybe a red rank concern more than anything, but the saloon is a nightmare if survivors know how to run it. You either sacrifice a gen or two at the start to break the walls or wait until a chase goes there to break them. Either way, you have to sink a substantial amount of time to essentially kick pre-thrown insanely good pallets. My games on that map often go down to the wire because there are 3 epic loops and not much else. I think breakable walls shouldn't be 100-0 in favor of survivors until broken. Should probably go 75-25 down to 50-50.
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I think breakable walls are a good compromise between "god loops" and making a loop completely useless. If that new spot in Ironworks is a breakable wall you can simply break it while you're doing your first patrol of gens and not even wait for a chase.
I'm honestly sick of people saying changes are pointless when they are blatantly better than things were before. Unfortunately for you people, the devs try to strike a balance between the two sides instead of ripping the rug out from underneath one side or the other.
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But the thing is where do you want to place good breakable walls except at god loops?
They shouldn't start to design around that mechanic and do maps just without it.I can't really imagine any survivor saying that the tiles that involve breakable walls are good.
I love that the devs are trying out new mechanics to change the gameplay a bit but i just don't see the purpose of those walls.
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Killers have enough to worry about other than breaking walls to make windows unsafe. It's not fair to them. It takes basically a gen to clear the saloon on the new map. No thanks.
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LOL there is ZERO skill to run the Ironworks loop. Try again.
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What macmillan and coldwind pallets are unsafe? Most of those pallets are safe and don't allow a killer to get a hit against any survivor that is optimal at those loops, unless they have Bloodlust 2 or 3 maybe.
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It's ######### amazing 😈
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Listen, if a killer chases a survivor and they start to use the "God loops", then that's on the killer. They should go find an easier target. Just because things don't go your way as a killer, it should be taken away. Why don't the devs just make a wide open space map and let you killers slug everybody so you can stop whining and shut up. The game offers environments that are taken advantage of by both survivor and killer and in the games I play, I win and I lose. If you're constantly losing as killer, either get better or play survivor. Enough of the whining because you can't adjust to make your skill better.
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I'm pretty sure that that wouldn't happen until all maps are reworked
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Yea I’m a red rank and once a killer is on my butt I’m pretty much caught I don’t know the loops or anything y’all talking about. It is one map when the survivor goes thru the window and all the railing is in the middle I can never get the survivor there I think it’s the farm.
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