Quick Fix: Bloodpoint Disparity
Simply put, Survivors on average get drastically lower Bloodpoints per game, especially if you factor in BBQ&Chilli vs WGLF. In an attempt to figure out why this is I've come across two rather obvious realizations.
The Killer will always play the full extent of the game. This gives them ample opportunity to cap out in the Hunting, Deviousness, and Brutality categories, as well as give them a good fill of Sacrifice depending on how they do. Survivors on the other hand may just die immediately and get nothing in the way of points.
The Survival category for Survivors is complete and utter garbage. What do I mean? Well, taking a look at the wiki reveals that while the obvious main way of earning points in survival is, well, surviving and escaping the Killer, the other ways in which to generate BP in this category are extremely situational and extremely small in point value. Below is a graph that shows all methods of point generation in the Survival category.
From this you can see that you will either get 5k + dribble BP from survival, or next to nothing (around 900 for struggling, maybe 300 here and there if you heal yourself during the game). So if you don't survive you'll probably get around 2k to 3k points, but potentially less than 1k. While it may seem intuitive that if you don't survive you don't deserve Survival points, from a game design point of view it's rather punishing on players who choose to play Survivor over Killer. It makes me personally not even want to play with my friends because it's a waste of time from a point perspective and we all get frustrated earning next to nothing half the time. The way to fix this is rather simple though so bear with me. All that needs to be changed are three things.
Nerf Survived BP gain from 5k to 4k.
Include the amount of wiggle bar the Survivor has filled while in the Killer's grasp as points in the Survival category, 1 to 500 points depending on how far the bar is filled. As for Escaping the Killer's grasp buff this to 1000 points, as at the current moment it's a nearly impossible feat to pull off unless the Killer is going for a hook they shouldn't.
Change the Escaped BP gain from Boldness to Survival and increase the Chased BP gain very slightly. If you escape a Killer during a chase that should count as Survival not Boldness!
These three changes would allow for Survivors to increase their base point gain while still leaving everything about the game fully intact.
As for BBQ&Chilli vs WGLF it's quite obvious that BBQ&Chilli is better due to its additional use of vision plus its matter of fact method of obtainable. You will hook a Survivor as a Killer, it's your main objective so you're bound to get at least one stack. As a Survivor however you're not necessarily bound to body block or unhook a teammate, it's all situational, and it has no additional use aside from point gain. It's a waste of a perk as it is. How to improve it is a hotly debated topic though and I'd refer you all to those threads rather than this one really.
Comments
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About Survival category rework, I opened a thread: https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/29649/balancing-of-survival-bloodpointsAbout BBQ and WGLF, there are dozens of threads, the main is: https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/21731/why-bbq-is-superior-to-its-survivor-counterpart-we-are-gonna-live-forever-and-how-to-change-thatI agree killers need more BP, but not so much more BP than survivors.
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You seem to forget that you can play survivor totally fine without using items/offerings at all, but a lot of killers are addon dependent. Additionally killers lose their stuff every game, even if they win
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@Master Yes, you're right: killers have to spend a sum every game, but there is no proportion between the greater gain and the greater expenses. Let's assume a killer uses two very rare add-ons per trial on average (and it is definitely false due to excess): then, they need 12,000 extra BPs, in theory, but in practice a good killer totals 40,000-50,000 bloodpoints against 15,000-25,000 of a good survivor, that is 25,000 extra BPs, i.e. the double of what they should deserve in the optimistic hypothesis (often false) of two so precious add-ons burnt every time. I don't want to subtract even one point to killers (the idea of punishing them simply doesn't belong to my mind), but survivors' reward must be quickly increased of at least 10,000 BP on average.@not_Queen @Patricia @Peanits @Suggestive Dear Devs, please rework survivors' endgame compensation, to make it mathematically fair.
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@Master said:
You seem to forget that you can play survivor totally fine without using items/offerings at all, but a lot of killers are addon dependent. Additionally killers lose their stuff every game, even if they winSoooo.... got anything elseto day that hasn’t been refuted, or is it ok to say that survivors definitely need a point buff finally?
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@Entità said:
@Master Yes, you're right: killers have to spend a sum every game, but there is no proportion between the greater gain and the greater expenses. Let's assume a killer uses two very rare add-ons per trial on average (and it is definitely false due to excess): then, they need 12,000 extra BPs, in theory, but in practice a good killer totals 40,000-50,000 bloodpoints against 15,000-25,000 of a good survivor, that is 25,000 extra BPs, i.e. the double of what they should deserve in the optimistic hypothesis (often false) of two so precious add-ons burnt every time. I don't want to subtract even one point to killers (the idea of punishing them simply doesn't belong to my mind), but survivors' reward must be quickly increased of at least 10,000 BP on average.Killers spend anywhere from 9k to 21k per trial, every trial except for in the low ranks; you're forgetting about offerings. Sometimes we can use wards that allow us to keep our addons, so we make out only spending 6k, at the cost of not using another offering.
Whereas, survivors can leave with items they didn't enter with, which is equitable to receiving blood points. So with ace in the hole III, a surv could walk out of the trial with a purple toolbox and a yellow addon, about 10k BPs.
Killers leaving with 50k BP is not a common occurrence. It's just nonsense. You're talking about a small population of people that can achieve that every trial, it's hardly the norm, or something to base a major change off of.
Survivors don't have to work as hard as the killer, some claudettes go the whole trial without being seen. Easy peasy; bonus if you grabbed an item on the way out too.
Also, when the survs are genrushing, a killer without ruin is screwed as damaging gens doesn't pay off without nurse or billy.
Killers rarely get the whole 5k points for sacrificing everyone, normally its 2500. Survivors get 5k for walking out the god damned door.
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You also need to account for waiting times. Currently you need to wait anywhere between 5-30 minutes for a single game as a killer, so in terms of bloodpoint / hour, killers gain little in comparison to survivors.
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I mean if you're playing at the dead of night perhaps but I've played at various times of the day and while it's not consistent it isn't 30 minutes by any means. I only play Killer so I'm fairly sure about that, but maybe at different ranks it differs, I'm sadly at rank 2 now despite being 3ish weeks into playing this game and get outmatched most games :T
As for it costing more to play Killer, that may be true, and indeed it's pretty bs that there's no way to keep our addons aside from the offering, if we slaughter all four it would make sense to keep them but ah well. Perhaps if Killers had an "Entity Store" where the Entity gives them addons based on how many offerings (a Survivor they've fed to it) they have stored up. Would be nice and a bit better than another thought I saw on the forums in another thread.
Also, to be fair I'm only advocating for slight changes in any case :T
Post edited by Aerys on1 -
@apropos said:
@Entità said:
@Master Yes, you're right: killers have to spend a sum every game, but there is no proportion between the greater gain and the greater expenses. Let's assume a killer uses two very rare add-ons per trial on average (and it is definitely false due to excess): then, they need 12,000 extra BPs, in theory, but in practice a good killer totals 40,000-50,000 bloodpoints against 15,000-25,000 of a good survivor, that is 25,000 extra BPs, i.e. the double of what they should deserve in the optimistic hypothesis (often false) of two so precious add-ons burnt every time. I don't want to subtract even one point to killers (the idea of punishing them simply doesn't belong to my mind), but survivors' reward must be quickly increased of at least 10,000 BP on average.Killers spend anywhere from 9k to 21k per trial, every trial except for in the low ranks; you're forgetting about offerings. Sometimes we can use wards that allow us to keep our addons, so we make out only spending 6k, at the cost of not using another offering.
Whereas, survivors can leave with items they didn't enter with, which is equitable to receiving blood points. So with ace in the hole III, a surv could walk out of the trial with a purple toolbox and a yellow addon, about 10k BPs.
Killers leaving with 50k BP is not a common occurrence. It's just nonsense. You're talking about a small population of people that can achieve that every trial, it's hardly the norm, or something to base a major change off of.
Survivors don't have to work as hard as the killer, some claudettes go the whole trial without being seen. Easy peasy; bonus if you grabbed an item on the way out too.
Also, when the survs are genrushing, a killer without ruin is screwed as damaging gens doesn't pay off without nurse or billy.
Killers rarely get the whole 5k points for sacrificing everyone, normally its 2500. Survivors get 5k for walking out the god damned door.
Let's go with order:
1) it is materially impossible that a killer spends 21,000 BP per trial, it would require to burn two ultra rare add-ons and an ultra rare offering every time, that is to obtain at least three ultra rare resources for each game in order not to exhaust their own stocks (moreover, I doubt that there are two ultra rare add-ons for each killer);
2) offerings are consumed at the end of the game for both survivors and killers, so it is a common mechanism, there is no extra expense;
3) the survivors can escape with objects found in the map, but what are the average percentages of escape (and escape with valuable objects) for a survivor? Certainly not 100%, otherwise the killers would always be losers, right?
4) the killer running BBQ almost always gets four stacks, therefore doubles the points, while WGLF is not so effective in guaranteeing the bonuses (but there are dozens of threads on the subject, there is no need to repeat here);
5) not being seen is a merit, not a fault: it means to equip yourself with perks appropriate to slip away in time, and maintain a constant tension and high attention and, of course, work (stealth does not mean closing in a locker for the whole duration of the trial, but move generator to generator, save the companions and reach the gates or the hatch; in addition, the killer saves time to chase them: do you prefer a runner who keeps you busy for two minutes?);
6) genrushing is a legitimate strategy like camping and tunneling, annoying but not prohibited: it is normal that the opponent does everything possible to win, it is the essence of the challenge, this; if you don't run Ruin, it's your choice, not a game imbalance.@ Se05239 Waiting times are hateful and I hope developers will quickly find appropriate remedies, but all these incentives to play as killer exacerbate the problem: they need 20% killers and 80% survivors, so if anything, it's the second role to be encouraged.
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@Entità said:
@Master Yes, you're right: killers have to spend a sum every game, but there is no proportion between the greater gain and the greater expenses. Let's assume a killer uses two very rare add-ons per trial on average (and it is definitely false due to excess): then, they need 12,000 extra BPs, in theory, but in practice a good killer totals 40,000-50,000 bloodpoints against 15,000-25,000 of a good survivor, that is 25,000 extra BPs, i.e. the double of what they should deserve in the optimistic hypothesis (often false) of two so precious add-ons burnt every time. I don't want to subtract even one point to killers (the idea of punishing them simply doesn't belong to my mind), but survivors' reward must be quickly increased of at least 10,000 BP on average.@not_Queen @Patricia @Peanits @Suggestive Dear Devs, please rework survivors' endgame compensation, to make it mathematically fair.
You forgot to take into accoutn WGLF, apprently you took BBQ into accoutn though?
ALso you shouldnt forget that you have to spend a lot of excess BP for useless stuff in order to get the good addons
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RE: #1
While you can die early, this also means you have the ability to requeue and start another match sooner. I wouldn't exactly count this, and there's not really a good way to fix this. If you do reward a decent amount of points for dying right away, people are going to intentionally do it to farm bloodpoints. With that said, the one thing I always wanted to see there was more points for struggling on the hook while the killer is close. That way people are encouraged to stall if the killer is camping and buy the other survivors more time, rather than just letting themselves die and rewarding the killer/hurting the other survivors.Couple things I've also wanted to see:
- Lower escape points drastically. Down from 5k to ~1k. Distribute those points to other actions. This would mean you can still get a decent amount of points even if you have a good round and die just before escaping, but you wouldn't get as much if you barely did anything and just slipped out the gates.
- Add survival points to other actions. Narrowly dodged a hillbilly chainsaw? Get a couple survival points.
- Remove BP from WGLF and BBQ. Make them baseline. Give WGLF a new effect. BBQ is a perfectly good perk as is, putting bloodpoints on it just makes it super meta. This gives people the freedom to switch up their loadouts without sacrificing bloodpoints.
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@Peanits I think lowering escape points that drastically would be a bit much, you want to feel adequately rewarded for actually escaping after all and making it so that escaping essentially means you just keep your items would be a iffy way to go with it. I think nerfing it a bit and reallocating some of the other categories' actions into survival would make the most sense, allowing you to better reach cap in every category as the match progresses.
Again, as for BBQ'n'Chilli and WGLF, there are many threads that cover those and why atm WGLF is garbage, we should focus on how to balance the base points slightly and worry about those another time. That said, the actions one needs to take to obtain stacks of WGLF are situational and optional, the actions needed to obtain BBQ'n'Chilli are mandatory (hooking Survivors is your main goal as a Killer). Simply making WGLF's stacks come from number of Gens done (15% per Gen) and an exit gate opened (25%) might allow for it to be more inline with the Killer's BBQ'n'Chilli. My greatest disdain for WGLF is that it has no additional use, it's pure points for a purely situational and optional action in each game.
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@Aerys said:
1. Nerf Survived BP gain from 5k to 4k.
2. Include the amount of wiggle bar the Survivor has filled while in the Killer's grasp as points in the Survival category, 1 to 500 points depending on how far the bar is filled. As for Escaping the Killer's grasp buff this to 1000 points, as at the current moment it's a nearly impossible feat to pull off unless the Killer is going for a hook they shouldn't.
3. Change the Escaped BP gain from Boldness to Survival and increase the Chased BP gain very slightly. If you escape a Killer during a chase that should count as Survival not Boldness!I like those. I mean the change in category should have been done a long time ago. The Survival category does not have enough action in it and escaping the Killer is not about boldness but about survival.
Wiggling should definitely give BP. This is how repairing, healing and chases works. I don't see why it should not be the same for wiggling.
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@Peanits said:
RE: #1
While you can die early, this also means you have the ability to requeue and start another match sooner. I wouldn't exactly count this, and there's not really a good way to fix this. If you do reward a decent amount of points for dying right away, people are going to intentionally do it to farm bloodpoints. With that said, the one thing I always wanted to see there was more points for struggling on the hook while the killer is close. That way people are encouraged to stall if the killer is camping and buy the other survivors more time, rather than just letting themselves die and rewarding the killer/hurting the other survivors.Couple things I've also wanted to see:
- Lower escape points drastically. Down from 5k to ~1k. Distribute those points to other actions. This would mean you can still get a decent amount of points even if you have a good round and die just before escaping, but you wouldn't get as much if you barely did anything and just slipped out the gates.
- Add survival points to other actions. Narrowly dodged a hillbilly chainsaw? Get a couple survival points.
- Remove BP from WGLF and BBQ. Make them baseline. Give WGLF a new effect. BBQ is a perfectly good perk as is, putting bloodpoints on it just makes it super meta. This gives people the freedom to switch up their loadouts without sacrificing bloodpoints.
i agree on the most parts, but heavily disagree with taking away BBQs BP bonus, as this would literally kill the perk. believe me when i tell you this: no one, besides billys and sometimes nurses, use BBQ for the aura reading. take away the BP bonus and 11 out of 13 killers will probaply never run this perk again. it would also not encourage me to go and kill the hook saviour anymore, as i wouldnt be gaining my +25% more BP token by attacking him instad of the unhooked, who would be the smarter choice to pick.
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Lots of people would still use it. I sure would. It's great for time efficiency. You don't have to spend time searching for the next survivor, you just make a beeline to where you saw them.Mister_xD said:@Peanits said:
RE: #1
While you can die early, this also means you have the ability to requeue and start another match sooner. I wouldn't exactly count this, and there's not really a good way to fix this. If you do reward a decent amount of points for dying right away, people are going to intentionally do it to farm bloodpoints. With that said, the one thing I always wanted to see there was more points for struggling on the hook while the killer is close. That way people are encouraged to stall if the killer is camping and buy the other survivors more time, rather than just letting themselves die and rewarding the killer/hurting the other survivors.Couple things I've also wanted to see:
- Lower escape points drastically. Down from 5k to ~1k. Distribute those points to other actions. This would mean you can still get a decent amount of points even if you have a good round and die just before escaping, but you wouldn't get as much if you barely did anything and just slipped out the gates.
- Add survival points to other actions. Narrowly dodged a hillbilly chainsaw? Get a couple survival points.
- Remove BP from WGLF and BBQ. Make them baseline. Give WGLF a new effect. BBQ is a perfectly good perk as is, putting bloodpoints on it just makes it super meta. This gives people the freedom to switch up their loadouts without sacrificing bloodpoints.
i agree on the most parts, but heavily disagree with taking away BBQs BP bonus, as this would literally kill the perk. believe me when i tell you this: no one, besides billys and sometimes nurses, use BBQ for the aura reading. take away the BP bonus and 11 out of 13 killers will probaply never run this perk again. it would also not encourage me to go and kill the hook saviour anymore, as i wouldnt be gaining my +25% more BP token by attacking him instad of the unhooked, who would be the smarter choice to pick.
Even if nobody would use it without the bloodpoints, which I doubt that nobody would use it, buffing it would be a better alternative.0 -
@Master said:
@Entità said:
@Master Yes, you're right: killers have to spend a sum every game, but there is no proportion between the greater gain and the greater expenses. Let's assume a killer uses two very rare add-ons per trial on average (and it is definitely false due to excess): then, they need 12,000 extra BPs, in theory, but in practice a good killer totals 40,000-50,000 bloodpoints against 15,000-25,000 of a good survivor, that is 25,000 extra BPs, i.e. the double of what they should deserve in the optimistic hypothesis (often false) of two so precious add-ons burnt every time. I don't want to subtract even one point to killers (the idea of punishing them simply doesn't belong to my mind), but survivors' reward must be quickly increased of at least 10,000 BP on average.@not_Queen @Patricia @Peanits @Suggestive Dear Devs, please rework survivors' endgame compensation, to make it mathematically fair.
You forgot to take into accoutn WGLF, apprently you took BBQ into accoutn though?
ALso you shouldnt forget that you have to spend a lot of excess BP for useless stuff in order to get the good addons
Read my reply immediately before this one of yours.
@Peanits I'll repost here an argument written in a separated thread. Each survivor gains bloodpoints among four categories: Objectives, Survival, Altruism and Boldness. While there are numerous actions that give the score to the other categories, the Survival does not take into account the time for which the survivor managed to escape death: for example, a poor player, who is hooked three times in the first five minutes of play, gains, due to the struggling phase, more points in Survival of those who remained unharmed for a quarter of an hour and finally were "electrocuted" in front of the exit gate with Rancor. Do not you find it appropriate that a parameter referable to the time of survival contributes to the final score in this category? Of course, no more points should be granted after the gates have been powered or the hatch opens.
Also, as you mentioned with the example of Hillbilly, each failed hit by the killer could give a fair amount of points in Survival to the survivor able to dodge it.Post edited by Entità on0 -
@Entità said:
@apropos said:
@Entità said:
@Master Yes, you're right: killers have to spend a sum every game, but there is no proportion between the greater gain and the greater expenses. Let's assume a killer uses two very rare add-ons per trial on average (and it is definitely false due to excess): then, they need 12,000 extra BPs, in theory, but in practice a good killer totals 40,000-50,000 bloodpoints against 15,000-25,000 of a good survivor, that is 25,000 extra BPs, i.e. the double of what they should deserve in the optimistic hypothesis (often false) of two so precious add-ons burnt every time. I don't want to subtract even one point to killers (the idea of punishing them simply doesn't belong to my mind), but survivors' reward must be quickly increased of at least 10,000 BP on average.Killers spend anywhere from 9k to 21k per trial, every trial except for in the low ranks; you're forgetting about offerings. Sometimes we can use wards that allow us to keep our addons, so we make out only spending 6k, at the cost of not using another offering.
Whereas, survivors can leave with items they didn't enter with, which is equitable to receiving blood points. So with ace in the hole III, a surv could walk out of the trial with a purple toolbox and a yellow addon, about 10k BPs.
Killers leaving with 50k BP is not a common occurrence. It's just nonsense. You're talking about a small population of people that can achieve that every trial, it's hardly the norm, or something to base a major change off of.
Survivors don't have to work as hard as the killer, some claudettes go the whole trial without being seen. Easy peasy; bonus if you grabbed an item on the way out too.
Also, when the survs are genrushing, a killer without ruin is screwed as damaging gens doesn't pay off without nurse or billy.
Killers rarely get the whole 5k points for sacrificing everyone, normally its 2500. Survivors get 5k for walking out the god damned door.
Let's go with order:
1) it is materially impossible that a killer spends 21,000 BP per trial, it would require to burn two ultra rare add-ons and an ultra rare offering every time, that is to obtain at least three ultra rare resources for each game in order not to exhaust their own stocks (moreover, I doubt that there are two ultra rare add-ons for each killer);
2) offerings are consumed at the end of the game for both survivors and killers, so it is a common mechanism, there is no extra expense;
3) the survivors can escape with objects found in the map, but what are the average percentages of escape (and escape with valuable objects) for a survivor? Certainly not 100%, otherwise the killers would always be losers, right?
4) the killer running BBQ almost always gets four stacks, therefore doubles the points, while WGLF is not so effective in guaranteeing the bonuses (but there are dozens of threads on the subject, there is no need to repeat here);
5) not being seen is a merit, not a fault: it means to equip yourself with perks appropriate to slip away in time, and maintain a constant tension and high attention and, of course, work (stealth does not mean closing in a locker for the whole duration of the trial, but move generator to generator, save the companions and reach the gates or the hatch; in addition, the killer saves time to chase them: do you prefer a runner who keeps you busy for two minutes?);
6) genrushing is a legitimate strategy like camping and tunneling, annoying but not prohibited: it is normal that the opponent does everything possible to win, it is the essence of the challenge, this; if you don't run Ruin, it's your choice, not a game imbalance.1) The value a killer spends on each trial is not pre-determined, which I tried to imply by providing a range of values, rather than just one.
2) Offerings are consumed at the beginning of the trial. You can experience this by disconnecting your game client while the trial is loading; you will lose your offering.
3) I doubt anyone has those percentages. The point is that survivors have multiple options to gain BPs, some that are equitable to the gains distributed at the end of a trial. It's an option that killers don't have access to.
4) "but what are the average percentages of killers getting four stacks? certainly not 100%, otherwise killer's wouldn't complain about genrushing." How is WGLF not ideal? Silver the Lightbringer emblem by completing a gen solo; silver Unbroken by staying alive for 9 minutes. Then focus on the benevolent emblem by doing unhooks, distractions and taking hits; by the time silver is reached for the Benevolent emblem, the Evader emblem has likely reached silver, and on top of all of that, WGLF should have a few stacks as well.
5) Unfortunately, arrogance does not increase the truth value of a statement(!). Also, mentioning claudette should imply to you that lockers aren't involved in being successful with her, considering a benefit of playing as her is her ability to blend when wearing certain outfits... outside of lockers. Regardless of that, though, survivors do benefit from effort they haven't participated in; every survivor receives Lightbringer points when any generator is completed; survivors can benefit from chases they're not a part of, by simply running behind the killer; simply staying alive 9 minutes (even by staying in a locker the whole time) guarantees a silver Lightbringer emblem.
6) I'm not arguing the validity of genrushing as a strategy, I'm referencing it for it's ability to cripple a killer's Gatekeeper emblem score with very little effort on the part of the survivors. Thereby reducing the opportunities available to a killer to earn BP, or to pip. Which continues to illustrate my previous point of how killer's have to work harder for their bloodpoints. And yet there are still complaints, even though survivors are capable of the same gains as killers if they use WGLF appropriately and maximize the amount of points they earn, rather than rushing to get out of the trial.1 -
@apropos 1) The most expense that a killer sustains compared to a survivor oscillates in the range 0-15,000 BP, corresponding to the two extreme cases of a killer who does not consume anything and a killer who uses two ultra-rare add-ons (always lost at the end of the trial, regardless of the result; while survivors can take away their items and add-ons by escaping: 14,000 BP) and an ultra rare offering (worth 1,000 BP, that is the price difference between an ultra rare offering with a very rare, the most expensive one available for survivors: read 2)).2) The relevant point is that offerings are lost for both roles when you burn them: no extra expense for the killer (except the price difference said above).3) Not enough to rebalance the score: the best game for a killer is still worth at least 25,000 BP more than the best game for a survivor: the endgame screens testify. I do not want to take anything away from the killers, but add something to the survivors, for example in the Survival category (there are some threads in this regard).5) You have superficially liquidated the role of the survivor, so I explained to you that it is not so: if there was arrogance, not from me (I have the utmost respect for the role of the killer, I would never dream of trivialize): I accept all the killers, you accept Claudette, you cannot choose the opponent.4) 6) The emblems are distinguished from the bloodpoints, they influence the rank, not the purchasing power in the Bloodweb: if something is wrong with the emblems, open a thread to report the problem: maybe I will agree with you.
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