500 win streak on nurse - balanced character
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That's different because reasons. Don't expect a response from OP. I already tried
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I said I didn't even get what you meant because you didn't really write it in an understandable way... Saying a killer is in top 5% when the total range of % difference is 10% doesn't really say anything, so at first I didn't get you and when I at some point assumed what you tried say it was just useless anyway because it doesn't really add sth. to the discussion anyway. I don't think the hours of the players mean anything... There are people with the same amount of hours as me who basically don't know how to loop at all and only hide. For the rest yeah the information would be nice, but then again even if we had those it wouldn't really help us either as we cannot replicate the environment that specific numbers would give us anyway... So let's for example say Nurse would hypothetically overperform on some maps in particular... for example blood lodge, what she probably does anyway as there are not that many line of sight blockers... But back to the point in the end it would not really matter with 39 different maps that all even the numbers out again to what we got here... And since you don't only get a random map every game (not considering map offerings) you will also get a completely different version of the map, when we look at Otzdarvas Map Contest where you could send in the most broken version of a map and it became groaning storehouse with 5 pallets I think?
So here is the issue... the same map can have a variety of structures and be either super strong or weak as f.... And since those factors just as the random perks survivors will bring won't change either we can basically only break the whole thing down on player skill, because everything else is just a massive unknown.... The game right now does not even offer a saving function for played games to find out if there were cheaters in it ... So ofc this function won't be in there to find out how the map was structered and if it was a rather strong or weak version of the map.
So the only confirmed variable we have is that this stats are for a nurse at top 5% of mmr... So somebody who knows what they are doing, on all kind of maps vs all kind of survivors... and so on and so forth... My point here is as the rules of the matchmaking apply for any killer the same way: all against random survivors, on random maps, with changings layouts and basically perks all across the board... Therefore I do think we can compare the killers to each other with those stats, ofc we also need to consider the pickrates as the basically ruin the average killrate but still since all killers perform in the same environment their stats are comparable...
Post edited by Gcarrara on0 -
Let's take a look at VHS and look at what balancing around the top did for those player numbers for a more similar comparison.
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To sum up the debate until now... We basically started with Alf being an absolute god nurse and getting a 500 win streak, so therefore Nurse should be Nurse as she is gamebreakingly good. Yet on the other side Survivor escape streaks also exist with absolute god survivors that also get several hundred escapes in a row, which leads to assumption that a skilled player or players can reach such heights of won games. While also admitting that the matchmaking is flawed and basically cannot put those guys up with players of equal or even similar amounts skill and game knowledge so they most of the time get matched with inferior players for rather easy games. Players with the same amount of skill, probably comp players, since Alf used to play comp and the guys Hens plays with are comp players, are really rare and don't often play normal games... So it should not happen to often to run into a real comp squad that just destroys every average player, unless of course they try to snipe the streak, which happened to alf a few times, and the streak of Hens also got ended by a comp nurse, probably sniping them, because otherwise what are the odds...
So we basically got nowhere so far... God Nurses cannot be looped, that much is clear, a god spirit on the other basically also cannot be looped when she uses her best addons, and otherwise some pallets have a little bit of protection (Hens' Spirit showcase for more information on that one).
An average or decent nurse however can be looped for some time when the maps allows it by using line of sight blockers... (This is probably mostly agreed on? I guess?)
Which raises the question does Nurse need a change if she ist mostly loopable, unless mastered? Because how many god nurses are there even?
Therefore we quoted the recently released stats on killers killrats (for the top 5% of mmr) released by BHVR where Nurse is on 8th place with rougly 61% killrate. So one could assume she is not broken at those topo 5% of mmr because compared to the other killers she does not do extraordinary well. The stats do not explain against which players those killers went on which maps with which perks and whatever... But since all killers were played in the same environment it still seems comparable (on in particular is disagreeing on that topic, explanation has to follow I guess). So here we are now... Why is Nurse considered broken when she does not do that much better than some other killers?
(At this point I am not sure if we're arguing about her chance to win a game or her ability in chase... Probably a mixture of both.)
Your options are limited against many killers, Nurse just does not play by the rules and has other weaknesses. However even though she doesn't follow the rules most killers have to follow she still does not excell in the killrates... We basically have nothing except for the opinions of many good players/content creaters and even Alf himself (apparently, didnt check on that) that she needs to get changed. The question stays though... I mean yes she does ignore the core game mechanics around windows and pallets, but gets limited by other things the rest of the killer don't care about... Her killrate isn't too high even among the top 5% of players...
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the current escapes in a row record is also 500 so I think it evens it out. (Note: This streak could have gone for much longer but the ones who did it decided to stop cause they got bored of gen rushing after 500 games in a row) so the escaper never officially died
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Another guy claimed that irrelevant as it was before patch 6.1.0, although I wouldn't agree with him there...
That's the thing I guess, even comp Nurses in tournaments can struggle against really good players... So sure it goes both ways... People spoke about basically never really looping a nurse but only delaying your unavoidable down, but then again how is that different from a god blight or a god spirit? You will go down regardless, and your options are limited anyway... Nurse does not care about windows or pallets, spirit does not care about most windows or pallets... so i guess we have a pattern here: all the high tier killers basically ignore gameplay mechanics to some extant, but might get limited by other things... Guess that's what made them high tier after all...
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LilithOmen has a over 150 games winstreak with Blight.
We all know some killers, IN THE RIGHT HANDS, are broken.
The majority of the playerbase, however, struggles at some point with these characters too.
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Exactly, but then again, when facing players worse than them mostly... In those cases it is a complete stomp and you will feel like you could have done nothing about it.. But then again when playing against equally skilled players it becomes somewhat balanced as they will make even really good killers struggle... It's just because of the flawed matchmaking that those situations don't happen that often... Therefore allowing such ridiculously huge streaks...
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The problem of VHS isn't even the balance. It's that playing monster, win or lose, is not fun at all and pretty exhausting.
That and that habit they had to ban testers who were voicing concerns.
Of course, now, any kind of MMR is impossible as there is only a handful of players remaining. I doubt the game will ever recover.
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The issue is that these guys are competition level and go against average survivors.
Heck, I have barely half their play time and I often massacre survivors with any killer I use. I even wipe teams as Nurse without blinking sometimes.
The issue is the MMR. It's why statistics show the Nurse is fine yet some badly matched players come here to complain when they get stomped by a skiller player. This is without even taking into account the ones who, instead of trying to learn, show the fortitude of a wet noodle and give up on the spot. (And are sometimes left to bleed-out by the teammates they are betraying, poetic justice.)
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Nurse is not the best killer overall, she is gonna struggle in wide open maps, especially with how the meta is right now. It isnt hard for killers like blight and artist to outperform her on large maps. Nurse is very good on maps with multiple floors (or any map mediumish sized or smaller), but her mobility is honestly quite lackluster for covering longer distances compared to other killers. A 115 speed killer can cover the same distance nurse can from a fully charged blink to post fatigue and only be a second or so behind. If we are just looking at basekit powers with no other factors, sure, nurse is the strongest. But there are way more parts to this game than just that. Not just anyone can get a 500 winstreak on nurse, if they could, there would be way more people doing it.
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That is true but it was exaggerated by the priority of acheiving balance at the top while ignoring the problems with and input given about the new player experience.
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Alf was on the best team in competitive (Oracle) for a bit. He was their backup Nurse. If you had an NBA player play 500 random basketball players with college experience or even low level pro experience in a game of 1 on 1, the NBA player would win 500 times because they're in the top 0.01% skill bracket. Alf actually had closer to a 50% win rate in comp when he was facing survivors at his skill level. It is highly likely given the way matchmaking in DbD works at the softcaps that he encountered survivors anywhere close to his skill level a few times in that 500 win streak.
There is no DbD equivalent of Overwatch's GM or Top 500 for matchmaking. It essentially throws Plat/Diamond-top 500 in the same bracket.
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I'm 130+ with a mid tier killer right now. I think if I played nurse, I would be super embarrassed if I didn't have a 500 win streak.
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I don't think you'd make it.
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if anything, these two problems illustrate imbalances for how most killer are underpowered and nurse-balance issues. I am not sure what win-rate would be fair for either side, but i think killer should have at most an 80% win-rate with roughly 75% kill-rate. I am not sure what a good win-rate and escape rate for good survivor team should be. I think it should be around 50% win-rate but escape-rate would be like 35%.
the game is not too far off from that in some sense but the killer are a bit far away from that. foundation wise, the game is good, but killer-wise. its a bit off. nurse too strong(lack counter-play), other killer powers, too unrewarding. lack of skill-cap in winning the match with many killer powers.
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thats absolutely false in so many ways, even when he is doing a win streak, he isn't playing as if he was playing on championship, he is all relaxed and reading twitch chat and interacting with his viewers, anyone who has ever watched any dbd competitive matches knows its totally different.
your second mistake is to believe he only faced newbies, we are talking about 500 matches, and i personally watched when he almost lost the streak a couple times.
500 games, with zero escapes after gens were done, is simply insane, and can only be done by something like a nurse or blight, because of their mobility.
another phallacy is that if you throw a professional player against new players, on a non-professional match, the professional player is always going to shine, thats a lie, on group sporte, the pro would suffer, he wouldnt get pro assistance from other players, and people wouldnt respect the rules as they arent pros and on amateur matches rules are disrespected all the time , this is true on most sports.
even when the killer plays solo on Dbd, those rules would be broken all the time, like survivors bringing purple items, brand new parts, and many other things that are forbidden on tournments.
Nurse fanboys will defend it to death, even when all evidence and all pro players and specialists says nurse js broken Op and needs a rebalance, no other killer in DBD is able to pull a 500 win streak with those conditions, but hey, lets pretend its just the player, and not the nurses broken ability to 1- down someone faster than any other killer, 2- hook and barbecue them, 3- either kill another surv who got exposed by starstruck, or teleport back to hook and kill the exposed surv by make your choice.
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and the funniest thing here is people pretending all killers can do well when played by a good player, that simply isnt true, anyone who watches good killers streaming can see the huge difference between a nurse match and a pig or deathslinger match, the difference is just gigantic
the good players will make the most out of any killer, even weak ones, but they require vast knowledge about the game to work, I.E. maps variation, pallets location, survivor tracking, mind gaming on jungle gyms and loops, you need skill to mind game a good survivor ona jungle gym or loop, not to mention all killers will be blocked by a good pallet,
now guess whats the only killer that cannot be stopped by walls, loops or god pallets, whats the only killer who doesnt needs to jump walls or even waste time breaking pallets ?
nurses are even more powerful because they dont need to slot a perk such as brutal strength, or superior anatomy, they have that already built in, and much better than the perks itself, simply go trough it.
what killer can go up and down with no limits? dredge needs a locker, sadako needs a tv, both have serious limitations, nurse simply have no limits, nit even range or recharge speed, a nurse can teleport to gen and insta catch a survivor, no other killer can do this, lets see the nurse defenders ignore all of this facts haha.
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Same but change Nurse with "pre rework dead hard" especially with the last sentence
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I've not read through the last 5 pages so apologies if this has already been mentioned, but let's try to understand what OP is saying by reversing the scenario.
What OP is suggesting, is that someone who's spent most of their 7,200 hours in-game on a specific single character should NOT be able to consistently do well with that character when faced with players who are not playing to the same level of dedication!
That's it, right?
They want an expert in something to not perform like an expert.
Get outta here!!
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another phallacy is that if you throw a professional player against new players, on a non-professional match, the professional player is always going to shine, thats a lie, on group sporte, the pro would suffer, he wouldnt get pro assistance from other players, and people wouldnt respect the rules as they arent pros and on amateur matches rules are disrespected all the time , this is true on most sports.
And this applies to DBD where the killer is playing solo, how exactly???
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That is not even close to what is being suggested.
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Well then, good sir, why don't you clarify what's being suggested instead of making an empty retort that adds nothing to the discussion? Because it seems to me that the OP is clearly suggesting that Nurse (and not Alf) is OP by virtue of Alf's success with her, and thus inferring strongly that that should not be the case, which in turn requires a world-view where it makes sense for someone to have sunk 1000's of hours into playing a particular character, and not eventually be successful with said playstyle.
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Imagine trying to quote a logical fallacy in Latin, and then immediately doing a Ad Verecundiam fallacy.
You’re also totally ignoring the fact that some of the specialists make money off of viewers, and complaining about Nurse is a far better clickbait than defending Nurse.
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Competitive gaming on Dbd is an entire different game, everything is different, first on some competitive games there are rules, and points, some rules includes limiting perks and items, its also played on selected maps, the nurse from Alf faced a harder challenge, 500 different teams, with no limitations, no item limits, no maps limits, its a big lie to think he faced "random noobs", if he kills most survivors, his MMR will be the highest, of course matchmaking is also bad and he definetly has easy games, buy he did face many, many SWFs, with all sorts of builds, and barely any gen regression perks, si basically his strategy is focused around downing survivors fast to snowball and build pressure, this alone isnt viable on some killers.
try to play killer on high MMR against a coordinated SWF and let me know how it goes, chances are you will easily lose 2 -3 gens on the first chase.
i NEVER claimed SWFs are balanced, since this thread isnt about it, neither it is about kill rates either, nurses can still lose (2k or less) for not taking care of gens, lose tri-gens, fail to down a survivor fast, or fail to apply pressure / tunnel and camp if needed. that is a player issue.
what i'm saying is that all other killers have a limiting factor attached to them, whereas the nurse have none, and this isnt right, that means if a player is really good at blight, he can still be stopped, but the nurse being played by someone of the same level, simply won't be stopped, unless the llayer makes multiple mistakes.
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clickbait ? haha this was funny man, they dont need any clickbait, you are clearly not a Dbd streamer viewer, people watch them for satisfaction and joy, nothing is better than watching d3ad playing a nemesis, its pleasent to see it being used to its full capabilities by a pro, makes nemesis look like a tier S, or trapper by Otz, or huntress by Coconut, or Blight by cafulio, ghostface by lz_ghostface, please man, bring some logic here.
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"i didn't read trough 5 pages of discussion, yet i feel entitled to give my opinion on something i have no clue about ! ". 2022, Hurr durr.
Maybe you should learn to read. I was responding to the OP point, and I don't need to read through 5 pages of comments to gain permission to make my own point or for my own point to have any validity. I only mentioned as an apology in case someone else has already made the same point.
please do us a favor and be quiet, let the other peiple who at least read the thread to opine, don't waste our time, thanks, good bye.
No, because that's just stupid. If there's a valid point to be made with regards to the OP, it's equally valid regardless of whether no-one has replied as yet (so the thread is only one post long) or 100's of people have replied (which would be several pages).
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Yes, some of their YouTube video thumbnail pictures are clickbait, with over exaggerated clickbait titles.
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No, thats the point of nurse. You have to avoid a chase with her, not just run her like every other killer. So if she needs a nerf, it should not be impacting her chase-ability so much. Survivors should be forced to change their playstyle once in a while depending on the killer.
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"avoiding a chase" is not possible on Dbd, at some point someone will engage in chase, whatever killer, the difference is you can't shake off a good nurse, because her power is too strong and the maps arent well balanced, if you get auto have for example its basically impossible, this is what was suggested, to nerf her numbers a little bit or remove / rework her addons so her teleport range becomes slighlty less dominating. just like all other killers
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what i'm saying is that all other killers have a limiting factor attached to them, whereas the nurse have none, and this isnt right
non-sequitur
Nurse is limited by way of:
1) Literally being slower that survivors, the only killer with this attribute
2) Having limited blinks (in the sense that there are random objects around maps you cannot blink through and just have to learn, her power doesn't just work universally)
3) Has a limited number of blinks (Bubba gets unlimited sweeps, etc... Nurse can only blink 2/3 times)
4) Has to charge the blink and cannot undo this (unlike huntress who can replace her hatchets, or billy who can stop revving his saw, etc)
5) Suffers fatigue (loss of vision) at the end of the blink (no other killers are forced to lose sight of survivors)
6) Has to wait for blinks to recharge
7) Cannot short blink on upper floors; a common counter to her on maps like The Game is to just run at her when she's charging her blink so she is forced to overblink or go down
You characterised all of this as "none". Interesting.
"please do us a favor and be quiet, let the other peiple who at least [understand and acknowledge all the relevant factors] to opine, don't waste our time, thanks, good bye."
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If you don't understand why charging a Nurse after she has wound up her blink on the second story of a map is a counterplay you're showing you don't understand her mechanics. She can't undo her wind-up so her only option is to overshoot or, if she points down, blink to the lower level. If you don't understand her mechanics that could be causing you to overestimate Nurse's capabilities.
Post edited by Rizzo on1 -
That's a good summary of the OP's argument.
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Okay, explain to me how the Nurse can avoid overshooting or blinking to the bottom level then in that scenario.
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*Grabs popcorn waiting for the response excited how deep the hole will be dug this time*
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Not interested in teaching you anything, you can create a thread or search youtube videos, i guess all the 500 teams that faced Supaalf aren't aware of your unique, brilliant, genius idea of how to fool a 1000+ hours nurse player, let's just make the nurses over shoot the teleport !! easy !!
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Pretty much. What makes this completely ironic is that the response came in while I was posting an argument against someone stating that Survivors are OP and can get huge win streaks. My argument was, wait for it, balancing around the top outliers would be unfair to the majority of the playerbase. I'm sure all of the people here stating that Nurse should be balanced around the top will be rushing to defend the OP in the other thread and stating that Survivors should also be balanced around the top level SWFs.
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Okay, so you don't know because you don't understand Nurse's mechanics.
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I'm sorry but I need to point out that it's fallacy, not phallacy. The latter greatly resembles another term for a male body part.
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Oh don't be sorry, i do speak 4 different languages, Portuguese, Spanish, Italian and currently learning english, your observation is great so i can learn ! thank you !
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