Struggle Phase Revamped
General Mechanic
Many people have taken to asking for this to be an automatic phase. This kinda takes the 'struggle' out of struggle. I suggest a new idea I had posted in a previous thread. Essentially it will be tied down to skill checks. One every 5 seconds.
Hitting the skill check keeps you alive. Missing two skill checks in a row will lead to instant sacrifice. Missing a skill check will reduce your bar by 5 seconds. You are losing the struggle between you and the entity. Slipping up is essentially losing to the entity while the key-bind suggestion below is your suicide option.
Great skill checks add 2 1.25 seconds to your bar. If you are great at hitting great skill checks this will increase your timer by a few seconds. This can be a clutch aid in which killers are camping or your team is just needing a bit more time to get to you.
Blood Point: Struggling on the hook generates Struggle BP. Hitting great skill checks award bonus struggle points for the survivor. Failing to hit a skill check will punish your unbroken emblem.
As @Atrushan88 and @Peanits suggested there should still be a way to suicide on the hook. I suggest an activator button like dead-hard. This gives you the option to just let go and accept your fate. While missing two skill checks is more like losing the battle to the entity. Again pleases both natures of the game.
Skill Check and Perk Effect Changers:
Huntress Lullaby: Yes should affect these skill checks. Makes nabbing that totem slightly more important. It would also keep you on your toes if you were hooked and it has five stacks.
Unnerving Presence: Would severely be abused by campers if this was implemented. I can understand maybe a bonus slight reduction to these types of skill checks. Otherwise this should not affect these skill checks.
Deliverance: If you were not able to use it on your first hook state: You can hit a designated button like dead hard. This will cause you to have to succeed 3 difficult skill checks (BNP/DS skill checks) in rapid succession. These skill checks pause your struggle timer and do not count towards losing the battle to the entity. If you hit all three skill checks you are able to get off the hook.This gives you a second chance of being able to use Deliverance... However, you have to work for it. These skill checks will not cause an instant death for missing them.
Spine Chill: Can reduce the frequency of skill checks down to 4.75/4.5/4.25. This would allow you to have more chances to extend your struggle phase. Anything other than the slightest of reduction of these skill checks would be too powerful.
This is Not Happening: Yes it would make the skill check areas bigger. The perk is weak as is so it doesn't make this a terrible change.
Stakeout: Punishes camping and that is alright. The perk is weak as is so it doesn't make this a terrible change.
Doctor Madness: I would have to test to see if this is a fair mechanic. This mechanic is to be a detriment to campers not hinder survivors. However, at the same time counter-weighted by bad-skill-check plays.
Animation Changes:
Suggestion from @Boss and expanded on.
Great Skill Check:
- This will have the entity attempt to stab the survivor and by swift luck they are able to dodge it. Letting them live just a little while longer.
Good Skill Check:
- Can stay the same as is. The concept is the survivor is just barely scraping by fending the entity off. Slowly they are weakening and the entity is just waiting for it.
Missing a Skillcheck:
- The entity goes for a quick jab inward letting the survivor know their death is getting closer another slip up and it is over. Practically just a fraction away from piercing them and completing the sacrifice. This animation will revert if the survivor succeeds the next skill check. (Shows the struggle in an animated way)
If the Deliverance Perk bonus I suggested above is implemented:
- The survivor will unhook themselves. However, during this the entity attempts to take a quick jab inward to complete the sacrifice and the survivor knocks it away just barely.
Unhooking by the Survivor:
- As the unhooked survivor starts to drop to the ground the entity stabs the hook right above there head as they land. Showing the next hook will be their last.
Point Scoring:
Skill checks reward objective points for hitting. It is your objective to stay alive, do gens, and get out. However, the longer you struggle for the more struggle points you gain. If you extend your life by hitting these great skill checks you naturally gain more struggle and objective points.
Benefits
- This mechanic saves your keys lifetime. No more button mashing/macro spam space.
- This mechanic does not really impede either side's game-play. It is mainly a QOL change.
- This mechanic is no longer 'rapidly tap space' a meaningless duty.
- You wouldn't die from lag spikes unless they were so severe that lasted 10 seconds in a clip.
- Adds depth to the game during the struggle phase.
- Punishes camping killers
- Natural buffs to other perks that are not in meta.
Comments
-
I’m not against this, but if it were in the game, I would like to see a perk or addons introduced that make these skill check zones larger. I would rather have this version of struggle than destroying by space bar. Maybe BHVR is in league with keyboard manufacturers o.O
2 -
@Captain_Doomsday what are your thoughts on this suggestion. It is the extended form of my shorter post on the other thread.
0 -
Thoughts and suggestions?
0 -
Anything is better than mashing buttons to stay alive.
I'd probably say that missing skill-checks wouldn't instantly sacrifice you but rather progressively eat a bigger percentage of your remaining health so that missing skill-checks are definitely to be avoided.
4 -
Does this mean TINH will increase the great zone sizes automatically? Seeing as youre technically injured?
0 -
I don't rlly this idea tbh but mashing buttons still sucks. Also ur explanation for deliverance makes deliverance kinda worse then it already is, it's hard enough for ppl to even get a unhook before there first hook, especially from high rank killers and low rank killers that proximity camp or even worse face camp to prevent safe hook rescues.
0 -
It is a buff that allows you to use it with being on second state. This is if you didn't get a chance to use it prior. However, it is at a price. @DoofyGoofy
0 -
Like gen skill checks, I think they should be at random interverals with a minimum time between them, rather than every 5 seconds, and adding new punishments for emblems would cause a lot of backlash.
Though I still support anything other than the mash system.
0 -
I don't like random intervals. I was able to do two gens under ruin because there was no skill checks. @Captain_Doomsday also the emblem punishment is for when you miss these basic skill checks. Again trying to suicide in game should be punished in a sense even minor. You are going against the SURVIVOR's objective. (To Survive)
0 -
The mechanic is there since there is a penalty for missing a skill check as well.
-Snip- Jdsgames night time math was a bit off.
0 -
Isnt it 12 skillchecks?
0 -
@Lametart and @Heru_Ra_Ha numbers were adjusted.
Also to Heru as a killer you want the person to remain on the hook. That is one less person on gens. That might be slightly longer you have during a chase to get another one. Although, playing nurse you probably don't need this LOL.
2 -
Can we just have the option to hold down a button instead of tapping it? Or maybe just make it a passive event. If it were passive, you would no longer be able to ######### for the last person, but you have free range to look around and maybe you could do additional things while struggling.
1 -
It is called struggle phase. I am against any form of button mashing, however, I don't really agree with having no real mechanic or thought 'just hold down x' is quite lame. @fluffymareep this mechanic keeps you on your toes a bit. Your suicide isn't instant give up you have to lose the battle to the entity. It gives killer's time to possibly give them a reason not to go full slug mode. You get a buff to deliverance and some other smaller perks. Generally an overall mechanic that makes your struggle worth something.
0 -
You make a good point. Skill checks would be an interesting change and it would take longer for trolls to give up, so hopefully there would be less of that.
0 -
@Peanits what are your thoughts on this?
I have gotten plenty of people agree on other remove struggle posts that this is way better than its current standing. This mechanic also keeps the struggle in struggle phase without being cumbersome on the user. It is fair and has rewards/detriments on both sides of it. It also makes camping early game not as worth while as you are then wasting more than 2+minutes at a hook.
@TAG @Lametart @fluffymareep @se05239 @Netharon
To name a few.
2 -
The only issue I find with this is that it already takes long enough to suicide on hook to give someone the hatch if the killer previously saw it. Adding forced skillchecks during the phase would increase that time, add to that the negative to emblems when intentionally suiciding, and you have a killer who has plenty of extra time to get to the hatch, is faster than survivors, and a survivor who tries to help his teammate losing emblems. It's a bit too much punishment all around. If you're gonna lose emblems for helping your teammate, your teammate shouldn't also be punished with you having to wait for skillchecks in order to suicide. Seems a bit too much like killer hand holding as the animation for dying is already plenty of time if the survivor isn't just standing on the hatch and it's close. If this is the case, the hatch should open the moment they die, instead of waiting for the animation to balance it out. Otherwise people will just start DCing to give someone hatch moreso than they already do.
0 -
@Atrushan88 this is an incentive to bring keys for the team. I think to compensate they can quicken the death animation since the crawl to the sky is very slow. Also the negative emblems would not be a severe penalty it is just something to make staying in the game and not leaving incentivized. The hatch only opens so quick and if the survivor is nearby they can still manage. That or once gates get rebalanced there will be that opportunity if they have not brought a key. You are not helping your teammate you are putting pressure on the killer. You want to ######### which the killer knows you are gonna do so let's have a slug fest. You hate that too don't you? You can't have the best of both worlds on it. Or as suggested they are considered dead after failing the skill checks. That is still 10 seconds which is fair game. I hope they dc after dedicated servers are implemented... Once they get punished for it enough times I see it being a 'Yeah we lost bring a key' type situation. Mechanics should not be balanced around someone disconnecting. Disconnecting should be heavily punished instead.
1 -
@Jdsgames Enforcing bringing keys shouldn't be the go-to. You force that and killers will have less kills overall because they won't need to wait to be the last person, they can just do gens until the hatch spawns and open for more than one escape with less work. It's not about just the emblems, you're punishing the survivors in multiple ways just for trying to help their teammate. You're making it harder for them to help their teammate WHILE giving them negative emblems. As for the slug fest thing, that can be countered with Unbreakable. You can also run No Mither to pretty much guarantee they hook you if you wanted. If you're the last two and you want to give the last person hatch because you know they're gonna be screwed, you should have that option without so much negative impact while STILL having a worse chance of them escaping through it. That's WHY people disconnect already. I also like being able to look around while in struggle state.
0 -
A short post from a different post of mine.
EGC Balance: The only time this is in the killers favor is the following:
Gates are on the same wall. Or the angle that the gates are apart have a hill or something with clear LOS to both gate switches.
Any other time this is an L for the killer.
You have hatch: Nice we can close it but the gates are on the other side of the map. Even if it is near the gates you are now protecting two hatches that you can't prevent from being opened without seeing the survivor. As a killer you do not have time to sniff out the area you are purely stuck on focusing on the gate switch. "30% gates no lights" tactic practically means a free win. Oh did I also mention keys and the remaining chests on the map? In reality you need to be guarding three objectives otherwise you practically give a free escape.
This is one mechanic that favors the killer to at least be able to close hatch. Without needing to focus on slugging. Keys can break the game yes. However, I would prefer to see more keys and have to adapt. Rather than oh there goes another free escape.
0 -
@Jdsgames This is simply not true. There are many killers that don't worry about gates being on the same wall(one even being a not so great killer otherwise), and even then, a LOT of the time they are on the same wall. Once the hatch is closed, you don't have time to look for a key AND find it again(it doesn't leave a noise anymore), so your only realistic option is to open the gates. HOPING for a key is not a possible outcome. Many times when the gates are on the same wall I literally just hide from the killer so he doesn't get the satisfaction of SEEING me die because I know there's no way I'm getting out. Also it's not an "L" if you downed 3 people. You got 3/4. The other one only has a slim chance of escaping. Survivors suiciding on the hook to at least allow the 4th a chance of escape should not be punished unless you want to allow that 4th an easier escape, because currently even now it's not a guaranteed escape and with 10 extra seconds that will make it a much lower chance of escape, especially if the killer previously saw the hatch. If a survivor is going to be punished for helping a teammate, there needs to be a balance struck where the survivor he is trying to help is given an easier chance to escape. Suiciding on the hook shouldn't be punished ALL AROUND, or you're forcing the survivors to play to the killer's will. Also 95% of the time when I don't even know where the hatch is, and the survivor doesn't also, I find it before the survivor does, and then I kill them too.
0 -
Killers and survivors have a fairly even chance during this scenario imo it's based on a bit of RNG but the survivors can play 30% the gate then hide in a locker and the killer won't have time to search strat. While killer also has a chance due to perks like Whispers that will tell you if the survivor is close. As well as doing a coinflip and trying to search the locker but the survivor might be a 4head and might be opening the other gate. It's a guessing what the other will do for both sides. Both have a fair chance.
0 -
I truly think this comes down to more of a 60-40 split. At least at high ranks. Again favors survivors unless bad gate rng which happens on both sides. Although, I prefer to get back to the struggle mechanic. I am up for balance tweaks. However, I don't find it is too hard or too easy without some evidence to be valid. @KillermainBTWm8
0 -
Struggle phase is fine as it is imo.
1 -
I don't know about completely removing it and making it automatic. There should still be a way to let yourself die in case you just want to tell your teammates, "Hey, LEAVE. Don't come save me, it's not worth it." You should also need to do something while struggling. But with that in mind, we do know that it's not for everybody. If this is something you guys want to see change, let it be known and we'll see what we can do.
7 -
@Peanits read my original post. Mine wasn't an automatic change. I for one disagree with it being removed, however, they are right that lag spikes or a slight off tilt could kill you prematurely. The suggested mechanic has good and bad to it to make it balanced and it changes it from button mashing to a familiar game concept.
1 -
Is this effected by madness?
0 -
@NuclearBurrito I think it could be I would have to test it to see if I feel it is fair. Simple ones like Huntress Lullaby or This is Not Happening are reasonable changes. Some of the harder ones I don't want to make it so standing by a hooked survivor is gonna be a haha screw you die.
0 -
Ok then. What about spine chill?
0 -
@NuclearBurrito no, I set it at a 5 second ratio so the extra +1.25 seconds for every great skillcheck couldn't be abused to make the struggle phase infinite. The mechanic is not meant to be killer/survivor sided. It benefits the survivor when being camped if they can hold out. However, I think making the skill checks on this rng or quicker than 5 seconds could really be busted. Maybe spine chill cutting it down to 4 or 4.5 seconds allowing for some extra wiggle room is fair.
0 -
There is fault in your logic. Struggling serves absolutely no purpose, other than to annoy the player. If you think an option to die is needed, then make it an active decision, and not a passive one like it currently is. Do you want me to include all of the medical journals that condemn button mashing in video games? They also include the physical damage that the player endures due to the repetitive stress on the bones, joints, and muscles. You can’t say that you don’t know about these either, as there have been several over the past 40 years, and every video game producer is aware of them.
4 -
Do you know medically that too much water intake can kill you? @Kaelum everything slowly kills you. Too much sun, too much exercise, too much food. This game shouldn't even be on the market as it is a killing game because we know those are bad too. He simply read it wrong and said he doesn't think removing struggle entirely is a fair play either. You don't need to insult him you could easily just put your discontent with the struggling as it stands. What are your thoughts about the actual suggestion of the thread?
0 -
Oh no! I knew it was a bad idea to eat things!
1 -
@NuclearBurrito anyway I replied to you earlier do you have anymore changes or suggestions?
1 -
That's it for now.
0 -
I for one think the struggle mechanic is okay where it's at since I've never had an issue with it, but the skill check change would be really nice, so I can look around me to feed my team info without having to spam a button, my only question would be if it would have the same sound or a different sound then the skill checks on a gen?
0 -
@VCDiamondFinder I am up for different sounds. It allows for more depth.
0 -
In that case would it also have a different look? To really add that effect to make of feel like you're fighting for your life? Like a light comes on your screen or something when you hit a great skill check?
0 -
@VCDiamondFinder man this one I don't know <3
Although, i hate bright lights in games. I saw a suggestion of the entity trying to stab you but you dodge it. Could be similar where if you hit good it is a struggle if it is a great it attempts to kill you and misses. It would appear as if you and the entity are struggling on goods. If you miss the skill check it can just dig a bit closer to you. Then if you hit a great it is like a ninja dodge. As if you are fighting back against the entity earning yourself more time.
1 -
That would be really cool, and it would give the hooks a little more animation to make the hooks more lively, but maybe a new save animation would be cool, like with a flashlight the survivor could use it to scare the entity away and the hooked guy jumps off or something like that
0 -
I like the idea overall and it is well thought. I personally would prefer for the mechanic to be unaffected by perks in general though.
0 -
@ceridwen309 see I have the opposite preference. I notice a lot of mechanics of the game that are not really fleshed out. (Struggle)(Gens)(Healing/Being Injured) and the more not really complex but well thought kinda like EGC it just seems better. Would there any changes/additions/suggestions you would have? The more fleshed out and the more support it has gives it a higher chance to replace press space.
0 -
It does actually serve a purpose; it emulates what's happening to your character. You're fighting off the Entity, not just kicking back and enjoying some tea while you wait for a rescue. Now that doesn't mean you need to be mashing a button, it could definitely be changed to something else, but you should still be doing something- whether that's skill checks or something else.
More importantly, from a gameplay perspective, you need to have a way to either hold out or let yourself be sacrificed. Having no option at all would not be ideal.
4 -
@Peanits I can agree you have to do something. However, currently it is just a macro for most people. Do you have any personal suggestions from the original thread post I have updated it a few times to expand on suggestions from others.
Post edited by Jdsgames on0 -
Would Stake Out still work? I presume yes, if so more people might consider using it.
0
