Gens speed is way to fast and need nerfing in some way
Comments
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In the early game survivors have a huge amount of pallets, very spread out points of interests and like you said best gen efficiency by the lack of essential side objectives like hooks/healing etc.
So the chance for a killer having a bad game just because of that quite strong early phase is quite likely.
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any augmenting add-on that gives you a boost in power there are a lot but because killers have powers they change because of the difference in power. Add-ons change your power a lot. Mori's, Map offerings. As for perks there are plenty of builds you can do a Bloodwarden build,genstopper build's, Build's based on map design a pallet destroyer build the list goes on and on.
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It's still very manageable. Once they throw a pallet, they have two options:
- Immediately run to the next one.
- Stay and force the killer to break it.
If it's the former, you're more than likely going to get a hit as long as the pallet's even remotely unsafe. You'll also get rid of pallets incredibly fast if they're playing like that, letting you snowball in the late game.
If it's the latter, go around to the other side before breaking it. This is called zoning. You're forcing them to run back to the area that they came from (where they already used pallets) or run past you to get to another (another easy hit).
Doing so, you can get a down pretty early on with any killer.
Of course, none of this is applicable to the Nurse. All the Nurse has to do is blink and hit them.
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Please name me one map other than maybe Game where killers have an advantage?
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Small maps friend the smaller the map the better it is for the killer.
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Just play Spirit/Nurse/Billy
Easy fix.
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you picture it that way , other look at is that he won only barely because he needed most op killer and mori to win this . imagine playing wraith without ruin into that .
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He said it himself he messed up at the start though, once he actually caught someone the game changed completely. Of course gens go extra fast when there's absolutely nothing else for the survivors to do.
I totally want some sort of secondary objective beyond totems as holding m1 on gens is pretty damn boring, but it's sort of a given that survivors are at their strongest at the very start of the game. No resources used, killer not chasing anyone yet and all 4 alive and active.
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You just point that SWF is the problem and not gen speed XD
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that is not that simple as it seems . vs good survivor u need enduring / without it you dont even have palent drop guaranteed , and as a killer you need read mind of every single survivor , while survivor there is 1 killer , every person instinct works diffrent . one will keep runnning straight other left . when you mindgame at pallet , its more about survivor mistake rather than you outplaying them . the survivor skill celling is higher than killer , past shows it . past years survivor got many nerfs but they learnt playing through all this nerfs .
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1st down at 1:45. This is the problem.
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Right now we have a late game task (the gates) and a mid game task (generators). We need an early game task to slow down a bit the gen pace in the first mins: nobody likes loosing 3 gens in the first 1:40 of a game. Early on, killer poor performance (maybe due to some errors or unlucky events), or the lack of survivors errors, punish too hard the killer side, and not so many killers are able to recover efficiently from that: most of them rely on big survivors mistakes (with the exception of Nurse, Spirit, etc.) to be a threat again. This snowball effect is simply not fun. The most interesting games are the games both parties have to fight, the games that usually tend to last long (around 15 mins), not games where the match ends in 5 mins.
Defining that a killer is having a bad game in the first 1:40 mins of the match doesn't mean he has to lose that match unless something special happens. Adding an early game task to relieve this snowball effect should be a priority, because is this what makes the game boring and less varied at high ranks.
p.s.
Anyway it's not enough to only down a survivor in the first 1:40 of a game, the killer has to already find and bother with the second survivor by that time.
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Right now we have a late game task (the gates) and a mid game task (generators). We need an early game task to slow down a bit the gen pace in the first mins: nobody likes loosing 3 gens in the first 1:40 of a game. Early on, killer poor performance (maybe due to some errors or unlucky events), or the lack of survivors errors, punish too hard the killer side, and not so many killers are able to recover efficiently from that: most of them rely on big survivors mistakes (with the exception of Nurse, Spirit, etc.) to be a threat again. This snowball effect is simply not fun. The most interesting games are the games both parties have to fight, the games that usually tend to last long (around 15 mins), not games where the match ends in 5 mins.
Defining that a killer is having a bad game in the first 1:40 mins of the match doesn't mean he has to lose that match unless something special happens. Adding an early game task to relieve this snowball effect should be a priority, because is this what makes the game boring and less varied at high ranks.
p.s.
Anyway it's not enough to only down a survivor in the first 1:40 of a game, the killer has to already find and bother with the second survivor by that time.
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As many others have said, increasing the amount of generators required to escape or increasing the time to complete generators is not the way to go. Gens are already super tedious and boring to complete and we don't need to make that worse. We need a good second objective (besides totems). I have seen plenty of suggestions on the forums.
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And that's what I'm saying
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He made single mistake that costed him 4 generators and 25% on 2 other generator. so one mistake means you should lose entire game. That's like saying a single mistake for survivor should be 1 hook. Don't really agree with it but your entitled to your opinion I suppose.
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This really doesn't prove that gens are too fast honestly. He did mess up quite a bit at the beginning.
If anything it proves that this map is just not well designed. If this was a low tier killer with little map pressure, it probably would have been more or less impossible to win because you can't down a survivor fast enough and also defend generators on a map so big with killers who can't cover large distances fast. Someone like Clown would have had a horrible time here.
But that's not a problem of gen time, but a problem of the map design and low tier killers that don't have the tools to apply enough map pressure.
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A better solution to slowing down gens would be to speed up Killers. That way rather than the Killer being given free Gen Pressure, he is instead being given better tools with which to GET gen pressure.
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It's definitely way more than a mistake. Any time you blink and miss, you made a mistake. A small mistake, but it's a mistake. You can't disregard them. If you do, that's saying, "There is nothing I could have done better here." and that's not true. When you then lose that survivor at the start of the match, that's a bigger mistake. Everything at the start of the match is magnified. You need to get that pressure up ASAP.
That's not to say anything about the killer. We all make mistakes, we all have bad matches. I have my fair share as well, there's no shame in admitting it. In the same way the survivors can make a mistake and turn a good situation into a bad one in a matter of seconds, the same can happen to the killer.
You cannot expect the survivors to not do generators just because you messed up. Having the game tell you, "No, you can't do the objective yet." would be unreasonable.
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I know it's not what you are talking about.
But Corrupt Intervention literally does that.
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So we can't do nothing to relieve this "magnified" effect early on? It's not fun both parties. I'm not saying to not getting punished for early mistakes, but to not getting punished "so hard" for early mistakes. Nobody likes a match when its outcome is almost decided early on for an early mistake (or bad map design, or lucky/unlucky events, relying on survivors errors that never come, etc). Adding a little second objective at the beginning could help in avoiding a part of this snowball effect.
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In a sense, but you can still go to one of the generators that aren't blocked. It more funnels you towards a different place than stops you from progressing. If the killer starts chasing someone while Corrupt Intervention is active, you bet I'm getting on one of those generators.
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Freddy would like a word
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If y’all want second objectives, they’ll have to nerf all killers dramatically. It would be a 4K every single game if survivors had to do gens along with something else, while worrying about a killer. Gen times would have to be significantly decreased too
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That too, but it's not as effective as those I mentioned.
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When the match starts I counted out..just around 75 seconds from match start till first down..I mean...that seems a tad excessive dont you think ..?
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I'm not saying mistake wasn't made. I'm saying that survivors can make multiple mistakes throughout a game and still win as a whole, whereas a killer making a mistake is considered a death sentence or as they say "Tru3 is garbage killer player, that's why he got gen rushed". It's pretty clear double standard. Tru3 even says that any other killer beyond nurse would lost that game. It just goes to show that you can play most perfect wraith game in the world and at the end of the day, you lose. If you look at the comments of that video, it reaffirms why everyone says you need Hex:ruin even though it's gamble perk for game slowdown and why pop goes weasel doesn't really move needle. It's also why people say that most killers aren't strong enough because they realistically need to find, chase and hook people in less then 45 seconds repetitively or they straight out lose and Nurse/Spirit and maybe billy are only ones that stand a chance in achieving that goal.
a common argument by survivor mains is that not every game is like this or SWF is reason why this happens. Let's think about it this way, If 4 people spawn into a map, They all start a separate generator, One person get caught and starts a chase, If the killer abandons the chase, the survivor just goes back to generator and if they commit, 3 generators will be completed. If this process ever repeats twice in a single game, the match is over. So even without any communication, Solo players can achieve basic optimal generator speed principals without really needing communication. A few counter arguments are that killers can apply map pressure by injuring multiple survivors, this principal is known as "Juggling", This is only true if survivors volunteer to out position themselves to take hits and not every killer has the mobility to juggle survivors efficiently. Killers like Pig can use reverse beartraps to artificially create juggling by survivors going to jigsaw boxs or Legion's feral frenzy can injure people quickly, but default killers have a different array of powers and not all of them can apply map pressure efficiently to slowdown gens. A another counter argument is that killers can just do "3 generator" strategies to stall out game. This isn't really possible because 4 survivors are able to spread killer thin. Unless you are instant down killer like Infinity evil 3 Myers, you can voluntary use a any tileset to waste a killers time and as soon as you get hit, survivor's gain burst of speed and they can use this burst of speed to enter safe parts of the map where killers can't afford to chase you or risk generators getting done. Other survivors can heal you in safe area's and you can repeat process until last generator is complete. The only reason why i think Genrush doesn't happen in every game for survivor is because they either suck at hitting Ruin skill-checks thus waste time game looking for Ruin, they're playing immersed/trolling or they're bad at the chase all of which are learn to play issues.
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so you think that the average gen has a good time it takes to get repaired? The game is turning bland since killers are following survivors in circles all game long and the rest is just holding m1 all game long. Is there ever going to be a cool change to the game that gets rid of this depressing meta? Cause it's not fun for either sides, unless it's a toxic tbagging dpipping squad.
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"Tru3 is just average."
OK when you think this guy who plays 50/50 killer/survivor and every killer with all kind of builds and often gets 4k on red ranks is AVERAGE....
hell, what makes that me with 1.7k hrs 35/65 killer/survivor and maining Freddy and Myers with the same build everytime and getting 2-3k on purple ranks at average? A NOOB? Surely not.
(If you have footage of a better player than give me the link please.)
But this aside....
What I think the problem is, is that good players have practiced the Great Skillchecks through the years because of Ruin. Gens get done faster, especially when it's destroyed. Then you can have a really hard time to find people or get to them in time even with Whispers or Discordance on great maps like Red Forest. Survivors often spawn near gens and totems (spawned 2m next to Ruin just an hour ago!) so Ruin gets broken fast and gens are immediately worked on. It is no coincidence that The Game is great for killers, because it's small. You'll find them early enough most times, so you can get pressure. A first good thing would be to make the maps smaller and get rid of the classic infinites (f.e. Ironworks of Misery) and make loops more fair like you did on Springwood. With this chases can be quicker which leads to map presence which leads to slower Gen progress.
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I mean, I wouldn't call every missed blink a mistake though. Survivors do have some counterplay to her blinks, at least as long as they can break line of sight. It's not a lot of counterplay of course though, which is why I am happy she is getting some adjustments.
But I feel like that's abit like saying a killer hitting a survivor on a mindgameable loop happens only because the survivor made a mistake, and a survivor who doesn't make mistakes can't be catched.
Not that I disagree that he messed up too many times, got outplayed and simply suffered because of that, which of course should happen in a balanced game.
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Exactly. All the killers that are already powerful would become way overpowered. It's just easier to buff the weak killers in that case.
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That is true, however its the fact that if a killer isn't playing their best and isn't playing an OP build like omega blink nurse, this can happen. If this happens every game, which it doesn't, what do you think survivor's survival rate would be? The problem remains that survivors have it within their power to end the game in less than 3 min, the only thing stopping them is the killer removing pressure from the gens, so at this point I even question if any killer can create pressure. The only thing the killer is doing is removing pressure from the gens since they can't force a survivor to do anything.
Either way, the main point is if survivors can do this against the best build in the game, even if they weren't playing to their best capability, what does that say about the other 15 soon to be 16 killers that don't have the power, and what if they play badly/get off to a poor start, are they just screwed? No second chances for a killer? I guess you could argue NoEd, is the answer to this, but some killers don't have the capability to rely on Noed to save them from this situation, and since it is a hex, I wouldn't rely on it anyway.
Overall, just the fact that the first 90 seconds of a game has the chance to basically determine whether a killer wins or loses, I think it puts into question how "balanced" the game actually is... For casual players, no big deal, but with this competitive playstyle... not so much.
At least that is how I see it, also why I avoid red ranks. And that brings up a whole other can of worms about how the ranking system encourages people to avoid the highest ranks, but I won't get into that now since I wanna do other stuff.
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Well not lery friend.
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What’s wrong with Lery’s? They put a doorway by most every window.
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He would have lost if he didn't have the pink mori.
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Been saying this for years now... I don't think its the gen speed problem tho, more like a ######### map design (all the balanced landing broken map offerings - currently 3, return of double and even tripple pallets).
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On a lot of maps it's realistic that the survivor can run a safe route for more than 60 or 90 seconds if they are facing a loopable killer. (Safe route meaning that the killer doesn't have a chance hitting the survivor because the loops are not mindgame-able.)
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There are definitly more than 0.00001% of the playerbase playing at red ranks. Also those who are playing against streamers are usually non-streamers. Streamers really aren't that rare elite, they show your typical gameplay at high ranks.
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which he was omega blink nurse that eventually turned around the whole game only because the claude was using plunderers and wanted the basement box, allowing him to get 2 basement hooks, and the claud then messed up again trying to heal in the basement after being unhooked which allowed him to mori him, pretty much if it was ANY KILLER OTHER THAN Omegablink nurse AND a mori, he would of lost the game. that is the point I am making. he literally had to use the most OP combo possible in the game to win this game and it was mainly because of 1 hook + mori + Dc's.
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*Too
But I agree.
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So if "make no mistake" is the game philosophy then why there is hatch and unhook protection?
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It's not just how fast the objective can be completed, yes that is a problem since if me and my crew wanted to we could snap our fingers and have the game over whenever we wanted as SWF.... but along with that......... its bloody boring!!!! And I've said this before, I'm sick of holding a button for over a min with having to be forced-----> forced! Literally if I want more points I'm forced as a survivor to dance infront of the killer and if I want me mates to get more points I have allow myself to get hooked..... it makes no sense and this all boils down to------> gens and how they can be completed in as fast as 4mins...
Hopefully archives offers something fresh thatll take away from the objective ----> and NOT related to daily's! Itll be nice for sure if that's the case.
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