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Spirit Nerf may lead to a negative domino effect
So im hoping this doesnt turn into too hot of a debate, but i have seen quite a few threads on how op the spirit allegedly is and how the devs say shes 'overperforming'. First off, im a bit confused as to why 'over performing' is a bad thing. You designed a killer that performs their job well and thats........bad?
Secondly, if you nerf her to bridge the gap between them and the other killers....wont we be stuck with just a bunch of 'meh' killers that wont have a good chance to perform well at red ranks? Seems to me, since people are so sick of seeing her at red ranks, that the best thing to do would be to buff other killers powers to be more viable allowing for more variety at red rank. Then you'll see less spirit and people probably wont be so harsh on her because they wont see her as often.
Lastly, i feel if you nerf her and bring her down to the other killers, wont it affect red rank queue times? With the number of viable red rank killers dwindling, i potentially see killers playing until purple rank then switching to survivor instead of playing into red rank due to the difficulty level and strong red rank swf. And after spirit, whos next? Billy? Hag? When does it end?
In conclusion, i feel like nerfing spirit may seem like it solves one problem, but could create so many more in the long run. Bring other killers to more viable levels and that seems to be the better idea, in my opinion.
Whats yours?
Comments
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The reason people complain about her is because they probably see her like 20 times in a row. I've even started getting annoyed, not with her power just having to play against her every single game. I personally think she is fine for the most part aside from a few add-ons being a bit too overpowered.
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They need to be buffing weaker killers instead of nerfing the stronger ones. Their priorities are off. Spirit is one of the most balanced killers in the game and is where they should be aiming to get the rest the killers up to, not bringing her down. Obviously they won't call it a "nerf" though, instead they'll just say they are making her more "fun" to go against but in reality it will be a nerf.
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and i think that problem is a result of the other killers not being viable enough that people feel confident to play them at high ranks
So many of the other killers need QOL changes so we can bring some more variety to the killers we see
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Do you think the Devs honestly care?
The game balance in this game has swung in such a way that Survivors are outright bragging about DCing, bragging about trolling, and some firmly believe Killing survivors too efficiently is 'a douche move' and 'unfair'.
The Devs will continue to listen to every Survivor complaint and beat 'too good' (read: decent) Killers into a coma, then eventually buff them back up.
...Eventually. I mean, Trapper never got a buff at all..and Legion is still an utter joke..and every Killer recently has weak, Survivor-biased powers and cooldown bars...But eventually someone may be buffed.
..Maybe. If Survivors allow it.
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Exactly!
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You're completely right in this to be honest. No survivor wants to admit that their complaints are whats ruining the game. They want easy escapes against killers like trapper and clown. They don't want a challenge anymore. They want their BP and to escape. This game is going down a steep hill and can't wait for it to reach the bottom. Then people will leave slowly but surely and they deserve it in full. There will be a time when red rank survivors have 10+ queue times then maybe they will complain but til then let it happen. Let every nerf come. They're making Doc "more fun to play against." Not buffed in any sense. Just more fun to play against. Look what happened to Legion. That's the model for every killer to come. Good luck every killer.
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Yeah it is kinda strange to me that the devs would rather hold peoples hand instead of challenge them to be better at the game. But who knows, maybe they will turn a new leaf
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thank you for the props man. i feel like thats what its going to have to happen in order for poeple to see our side. They have to see the effects it has before they see how this isnt a good idea. Problem is thats gonna take MONTHS :(
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I'ma be honest and say this...Have you seen what dbd was back on release date? Cause back then most of the game mechanics and devs were in overwhelming favor of survivors vs killers.
Heck the only reason old Nurse existed was to fix how broken survivors were back then until they finally got their [BAD WORD] into gear and start to make the game somewhat balanced, as of now it may not be perfect (Some broken maps still exist, dedicated servers) but is by far in a better state of balance then it was 3 years ago.
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Maybe. But there's 4 Survivor purchases per Killer purchase for a full match, so don't hold your breath.
I mean, I'll gladly eat crow if the next Killer's power is in no way controlled by the Survivors. Unlike Plague, Ghostface, Demogorgon...
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I used to think the game was perfectly balanced until they decided to start listening to survivors yet again. Now the game is going to ######### and following the EA standard with battlepasses and listening to the majority, I.E. Survivors.
Let it take as long as it takes to be honest. Let the game fall into decline. It needs it.
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i would agree as the game was trash back then lol but that was when they first started and was still learning with little to no feedback and much smaller community. Now that they've grown, they should be able to see what the effects are of their actions
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I mean the only last 2 times I can think of where bhvr absolutely messed up in terms of balance was old Legion and old Mettle of Man.
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i think that 'interactive' part of killer powers are what take them down. Killers like plague, ghostface, trapper/hag, and demogorgon whos powers can be negated by survivors are what affect their viablity. Killers should be able to use their power without worry of survivors always negating it in my opinion as they are supposed to be the power role.
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sPiRiT iS tHe MoSt BaLaNcEd KiLlEr... jesus the bias is real in this thread
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If Billy gets nerfed after Spirit Im actually done with this game.
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lol but wouldnt this comment be considered bias as well??
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might as well prepare for it, if a killer kills too well they have to get nerfed
overperforming is bad in dbd for some reason lol were too good at the game lmao
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This. This exactly.
Looking at Ghostface should not turn off his power. Maybe the person looking at him cannot be stalked, but he should stay in stealth.
Plague's power is dependant on Survivors cleansing. No cleanse, no power.
Trapper used to be okay, but now it's too easy to see & track his traps; 2 perks plus map (item), plus maps they just stick out on.
Hag, at least, needs a sharp eye & a finite item.
Demo would be fine if his unused tunnels still showed nearby Survivors & he could teleport to any tunnel from anywhere. As it is, he has Trapper Syndrome; he takes too long walking around & setting up. That crap DOES NOT WORK in the current 4-minute-Genrush meta.
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There have been MULTITUDES of threads about spirit and why she is not balanced, the only ones who say she are balanced are the abusers (same with the nurse cryout). Killer or survivor main you can clearly see there is a problem with her.
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Yea I made a comment on my post earlier about this, Im actually a little worried that they see a statistical outlier or overperformer as a bad thing kinda tells me they want all killers to be the same.
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Im so glad that there are still people out there who are able to see from this perspective so thank you for this. Maybe one day it will click for the rest of the community
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ok and there are many threads trying to teach people how to counter her as well. Also, to say something is being abused, means theres some sort of bannable action or conduct considered unsportsman-like. Playing a certain killer and using their power effectively to achieve the objective isnt abusing anything
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This sums up my argument.
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There are MULTITUDES of threads about how the Nurse changes were too much at her basekit and that Spirit SHOULDN'T be nerfed because surviors can't do anything but loop to try and survive
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I'd like to see solo survivor buffed first before killers start getting brought down. Nurse's add-ons needed fixing. Spirit's Prayer Beads Bracelet add-on should be changed or at least made UR. But big changes to killers should come after buffs to solo survivor; the gap between solo and SWF is too big to be making changes to killers. Nothing can be balanced for both solo and SWF when solo and SWF aren't equal in the least. It's hurting the game.
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I’ve been saying this a lot recently, but it doesn’t seem to be catching on as easily as I hoped. The idea that Spirit is the only killer that’s viable at red ranks IS COMPLETELY UNTRUE. Red rank survivors don’t dislike Spirit because she’s the only one that dominates them. Hag, Billy, Freddy, Plague, Huntress, and Ghostface are not only viable, but oppressive in the right hands.
The reason survivors dislike Spirit is that there is no interaction with her power. She has an insurmountable advantage while phasing where the only thing a survivor can do is make a guess and hope they’re right. There’s no mind gaming; it’s simply a guess that determines whether or not you take a hit. That feels terrible, especially when you compare it to the other killers who need to earn a hit or down from you.
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i quit playing months ago with the lack of imbalance as killer and seems i did abandon it or ship at the right time ... the devs keep doing this killers will quit and wont want to play. no one wants to play a game as killer where its just a bully simulators and the killer to feel powerless. il say this keep going down this path devs well. you wont have a killer community left and you will kill dbd. people wont agree but thats my opinion. lol
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I agree the need to buff weaker killers. Spirit is a more open question. I do feel a few small adjustments would be in order. And I do mean small. I don't particularly like her. But she is an interesting and unique killer. I'd hate for them to gut her.
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i adore spirit, and any nerf on her would make me mad, but yea instead of nerfing good killers will add more variety, meh killers is bad for the game, good killers is good, strong killers just a few, like spirit, but yea, buff weak killers, so strong killers aren't as annoying (to cry baby survivors)
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I just want actual counterplay to spirit thats not "flip two coins and get two heads". And before anyone says it, no, a perk you need to bring in before you even know what killer it is is not counterplay. I think having killers inbetween Spirit and Billy would be ok. we do need more viable killers, but they also need actual skill based counterplay.
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Well, all I can say is: enjoy your favorite killer while you can. Any killer can be the next target by main survivors and Twitch streammers. Even when I play with Plague/Ghostface I got a lot of:
This is broken!
This is not fun!
This is too op!
Y'all know how It ends..
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People confuse "viable" with "easy wins".
That's why people say that Nurse and Spirit are the only ones viable at red ranks. Nurse pretty much can't lose if you've 100% mastered her, even after the changes. And Spirit is simply the most bang for your buck as far as killers go (as in, has the highest performance/effort and skill).
Billy, Freddy, Hag, Huntress and Demogorgon are absolutely viable in red ranks. People just assume that you can't win if you have to run tiles as killer, which is simply not true.
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There's only two problems with Spirit, and they're not even really related tbh:
The other killers are underperforming (the Spirit "overperforming" is just fancy talk for "she's good unlike the other killers that we've gotten used to being bad"
Other killers are weak and survivors have gotten too used to bullying the weak ones so when they see a Killer who's strong (as they should be) they dc and claim "op"
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Huntress viable? Almost every map hurts her. I think Hag is so much better
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Besides, this narrative that people complain about everything until it's nerfed is simply false. Nurse has been OP for ages, old Legion was unpleasant and as soon as people started learning how to properly play the Spirit she became omega unfun to play against. Only a minority complains about anything else.
Post edited by Inji on3 -
Survivors complaining a killer kills survivors too well is no different from killers saying a medkit ad on heals survivors too well or a survivors perk helps them survive too well.
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I've never agreed more to a forum post.
The "problems" people find in the spirit aren't caused by her being too good - it's caused by the other killers being too weak. Clown is the best example I can think of for a killer who could be amazing, but is just too weak. Clown is too slow and has too many negative factors in his ability, otherwise he would be sickening to go against.
The dev team needs to give buffs and QoL changes to weaker killers instead of ruining stronger ones. I'm one of the lucky ones who on'y sees spirit 20% of the time, and even when I do see her I have fun (because I used to main her). I know the tricks to outplay her, and I wish others would be more open to learning.
I pray for spirit and hope she isn't gutted. Bring other killers up, do not push the spirit and "overperforming" (eyeroll) killers down.
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Even on the maps where she's at her worst she's still viable if you know what you're doing. Her ceiling is crazy high.
Hag is obviously better. But being worse than Hag isn't the end of the world, she's extremely good. Most underrated killer in the game imo.
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I'm just gonna say this when I started playing I was a Spirit main and in about 100 hours I got to rank 1, mind you I played survivor equally as killer so you might cut those hours to 50 plus queue times and playing other killers so maybe 35 hours playing Spirit. Either I'm some special talent at killer or she's broken if someone who just started playing can dominate with a supposedly "Hard" difficulty killer there is something wrong. Saying Spirit is the most balanced killer is actually insanity, there is zero counter play if you don't bring Spine Chill and Iron Will and still if Spirit brings Stridor you are pretty much done. With all of that being said I do agree that before Spirit gets looked at lower tier killers should get buffed. They should make it so you hear the phase sound even when you are in her terror radius so that stupid standing "mindgame" as people call it doesn't happen.
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Unfortunately, you're right. Survivors would lose their ######### if the weaker Killers were buffed instead of the stronger ones being nerfed. All they want to do is loop them for five gens. They don't care about getting good (that's what they expect Killers to do). Wouldn't be surprised if Hag, Freddy, and Billy get nerfed next because people are learning how to properly play them and Survivors struggle with looping for five gens.
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She is not fun to play against, these coin flips sucks and takes away any player interaction in a match with Spirit in it.
Defending this broken concept of a killer is no good, broken killer "overperforming" (just a nice way of saying overpowered) needs to get toned down and adjusted.
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SWF is still much stronger than solo survivor, yes. However, even as 4 solo's the game is still vastly in the survivors favor bar a few odd exceptional scenarios.
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I wonder what the statistics actually are.
And "overperforming" isn't some sort of "we can't have killers that KILL in our game" nonsense. In data-driven balancing in many other games something as simple as a 60% winrate as opposed to a ~50% winrate might be considered an extreme and unacceptable case of overperforming. If the devs do have some sort of desired balancing goal and Spirit is above it by a significant margin the statement makes perfect sense.
Of course if they do want to pursue their desired number more seriously there's things like killer emblems in higher ranks that would have to be tweaked, regardless if they'd like 2k, 3k or anything else to be the average efficiency. And that's assuming the statistics handle stuff like disconnects and rank concerns in a sensible way that doesn't skew it horribly.
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But my point that the game can't be properly balanced between survivors and killers when such an imbalance between just survivors (solo vs swf) exists stands. Solo and swf should be on more equal footing, and then data can be collected to see where killers stand. Otherwise, if killers are nerfed first and then solos are buffed, it may throw the whole system out of whack again. Doing it in the proper order now would save them time, money, and headache later.
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I want to see their hard data. I would love them to release monthly stats on what's being used, who is being used, and other details. They have done it so very randomly here and there but I think putting that info in the monthly dev streams would be beneficial to all of us understanding what is going on.
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Well, everything you said contradicts both my individual experience and every single piece of data the devs have, but OK have at it
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Last night I got a message on PS4 that said “Plague is easy.” As in she is easy to play as and 4K.
Like yoooo...all you gotta do is spread out, rush generators, and loop her. She’s pretty helpless on a big map. She has no map control.
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I absolutely agree. Huntress is crazy good if the player is good with her. Even if the map is Yamaoka or Ormond or another bad map for her, she’s still a viable killer.
I still do believe Plague is the most underrated though. At least most players know Hag and Huntress are great killers. People really sleep on how good Plague can be.
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I see what you're saying, but I think swf needs to be brought down, not solo's brought up. Having solo's brought to their level provides way too much information and ruins a lot of the games horror factor that you gain from the unknown of a solo game. Killers already need buffs now so if solo's were brought up to swf levels then killers would need massive buffs.
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