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Spirit Nerf may lead to a negative domino effect
Comments
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Personally, I'd prefer that, too. But how do you bring down SWF without hurting solo survivors and without losing the SWF players? The thing that gives SWF such an advantage is their communication, and there's no way to take that away from them.
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People sleep on Plague because they can't stand running tiles and she has to do it.
I swear to God if people would stop playing Spirit for 10s and actually learn the game fundamentals, they'd see that pretty much half the roster is most definitely red ranks viable.
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We need to make things straight on what's balance and what isn't.
First off, to use Spirit doesn't take much skill at all. The spirit has multiple skills to track suriviors such as noise, scratch marks and collision. To allow a powerful killer that doesn't require much skill shouldn't be allowed because it makes the game unfair for suriviors who has been playing for a long time.
Secondly, using spirit grants killers access to win chases in Less than a minute. This is because if the killer is standing still on the pallet you are trying to loop her in. How is a surivior meant to tell if she is faking phasing or is phasing? This pretty much makes it so she has zero counter because there is nothing the surivior can do but play a guessing game and hope the spirit is terrible.
Thirdly, by the killer over performing shows how that compared to other killers such as Freddy, Nurse and Hibiily. She has been the one who done better than the rest of them. You understand what that means for a killer to be doing better than a nurse, right? It shows how easy she is to use and how easy it is to win games with her. The devs has stated in their stream that for a killer to be powerful such as a nurse it must take alot of time and skill involve. So for a killer to not only do better than a nurse, but also has a way higher number of users doing better just shows how broken she is.
Fourthly, you speak of red ranks as if killers such as Freddy, Hilbilly, Nurse, Huntress, Demogorgon and other killers that can apply map pressure can't win. I thought the surivior side was worst, but sometimes you killers like to act as if you are always kept at the bottom when the devs have clealry gave you strong killers that can win games.
Fifthly, killers and suriviors will always keep getting nerf so stop complaining when killers get a nerf as if a surivior hasn't. Obviously, the more weaker surivior have become, the more stronger a killer gets. So they have to figure out a way to balance both side carefully (somehow they fail at it most of the time. Take legion as an example).
Moreover, your whole point of people using spirit because that's the only way to win is very untrue. Muitple killers have the ability to win at red rank games. It's just that most killers don't take their time to learn how to properly use killers such as Hilbilly and choose to use an easy one like spirit.
Furthermore, to counter a spirit u have to run perks such as iron will, but how is a surivior meant to know their killer would be a spirit? Not only that, but perks such a stridor cancels iron will and juking them can only work in low ranks. Spirit has many things at hand that can make juking her almost imposible. Don't even get me started on her add ons.
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After spirit is nerfed, Billy is next on the nerf list.
Originally Devs stated that they would rework Nurse's and Billy's add ons. Then they said they would do a slight tweak to the base kit of nurse. And that's how we have the current nurse nerf.
I bet the devs will do the same thing to Billy where they will say that add ons are being tweaked, and then say they will do a "slight" change to Billy's base kit. Which will add some form of a nerf on him.
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You forgot that they did a 3rd mess up, and it was with the nerf of nurse's base kit. Nurse's base kit never needed a nerf, but they nerfed her unnecessarily.
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SWF cannot be nerfed. No matter what you do, you'll harm solo too
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For third one, then why the nurse is nerf if she was weaker than spirit? (I'm talking about basekit only)
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They nerf her simply because they ran out of idea for her add-ons. Adding a cooldown is just a way for them to make add-ons, and also please those people who wanted nurse nerf
2 birds with 1 stone, clever for devs, right?
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I don't believe you can, that's the issue. I think we need a ranked and unranked separate queue.
Post edited by Blueberry on0 -
I swear, outside of Prayer Beads...Spirit is mostly fine....she requires different movements and tactics to stall out longer...regular mindgames and looping aren't gonna cut it versus decent to great Spirit players....which, as I've reiterated in other threads, is a hard habit for Survivor mains to break.
So many Killers ARE hampered by strong loops and usual mindgame tactics, so having a few Killers that can break that....throws players off balance and yeah...I GET that it gets old VSing the same usual Killers over and over....so buff the ones that see LESS play at higher Ranks and/or tweak the Emblem system that is punishing the lower tier Killers.
It gets tiring how many want base kits and design of Killers to be nerfed as a quick fix to drop the complaints...and the threads have been more abundant after BHVR targeted and worked on Nurse, it just becomes a chopping block instead of an operating table here....
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She's definetily not easy to play! I like how slowdown builds works on her but that's all I have to help me. She's so tall wich makes her easy to spot, very loopable (because of this) and her main power is very situational
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I'm a rank 5 killer main. I play a lot of killer, I think I'm pretty good, but I make mistakes all the time. Spirit is easily my least favorite killer to play because she is just so ridiculously easy, and there's hardly ever any punishment for the mistakes I make. There's hardly anything a survivor can do when I target them, even the biggest-brain plays just slow me down, five seconds at most. I rarely ever play survivor, but I hate spirit on both ends. It's good that she is effective, but it shouldn't be so easy to be effective with her. There's a reason why you see so many red rank spirits and it's because it's easy as cake to pip with her. It's not like you can't reach red ranks with hag, freddy, new nurse, billy, ghostface, or demo, but that takes actual skill. When the devs say spirit is "overperforming," it doesn't mean spirit players are better than other killer players. It means the opposite. It means she's way too easy. She's genuinely unfun and oppressive to play against.
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Yeah, it's insane. My guess is that these are mostly killer mains who started out with spirit, and think that every match is just supposed to be some sandbox where you totally determine the outcome. I started with ghostface, and got to where I can consistently perform well with him, but against skilled, coordinated survivors, I'm given a run for my money. When I play spirit, the game is dull and unchallenging. I could probably count on one hand the amount of times more than one person has escaped.
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I don’t use her and I think she is balanced, please provide proof for such a wild claim.
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You know I’d like to see the numbers with match’s with dc removed and not counted as a lose. Someone dc I don’t care if 3 others die it’s worthless toss it out.
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EVERY killer is viable in red ranks if you are good enough with them. Being in red ranks doesn't really mean much in this game. Some of you guys are really confusing swf with red ranks.
The real issue is swf because they can do gens insanely fast and spirit feels like it was balanced for swf.
Let me tell you this, buffing the weaker killers won't stop a lot of people from playing only spirit, because lots of people always want to play the strongest killer. Nurse was the strongest killer but she wasn't played as much because she actually has a skill cap. Spirit's skill cap is listening with headphones. Everyone that knows how to play killer can learn how to play her in a couple of matches.
Also, even if you think she is balanced, you cannot ignore how a lot of survivors don't enjoy going against her and that's one of the main reasons she needs to be changed. I would rather go against old omega blink nurse than spirit.
I do agree that weaker killers should be the priority though. But it looks like the game will be dead by spirit until the nerf and everyone playing spirit will only make the nerf come sooner.
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Rule no 1069 : If u cant beat them join them
I used to play killer surv 50/50 at rank 1 but god killer is so stressful im now slowly turning into surv main bcz its so relaxing
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Overperforming is a bad thing. Overperforming means having a very high kill ratio (at least that's what I get from that).
Think about it. You are a game designer, you look at the stats and see a killer having a very high kill ratio. Of course it makes sense to nerf them. The kill ratios should be around 50% in most cases.
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no one likes plague... survivors dont like being broken and having so many perks negated by being sick and plagues dont like not having a power late game, if corrupted purge wasnt so obnoxious and was just a projectile like huntress then cleansing wouldnt be an issue
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i feel this. the killer mindset has become so incredibly lazy, if the killer theyre playing doesnt ignore all mechanics or has no interactive counterplay then its weak and stupid.
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Ok first, overperforming. A killer should (we assume) average 2 kills per match if they are "balanced," good survivors should beat them, bad survivors should die to them, good killer players should do well on them, bad killer players will probably struggle.
If a killer is overperforming, that means that they're averaging far more kills than that. It isn't simply that good players are playing them a lot, but that their power gives too much reward for how difficult it is to use. Spirit is not difficult to use, her power gives her huge mobility, allows her to land easy hits with very little counterplay on the survivor's side (there's not really anything you can do about a killer bumping into you and knowing exactly where to swing when you have no idea if they're behind you or in front of you) and her add ons present some huge issues, like Prayer Beads.
To say "don't nerf Spirit, buff everything else" is what people (Nurse mains) said for years about Nurse. The issue is that that presumes that Spirit is balanced, and that buffing everything else up bring EVERYTHING to a point of balance. From the information we're given (that she is "overperforming") we know she ISN'T balanced.
Nerfing her, like Nurse, is not going to bring her down to M1 killer tier by default. There's a lot of small tweaks (taking out prayer beads, no collision while phasing, no passive phasing, an actual tell to her standing-still "mind game") that would make her much fairer to play against without hurting most good Spirit players significantly.
People who like killer don't often just suddenly start enjoying survivor more. People play different killers, it's more about the hunting and gameplay than it is about just playing DBD. Red rank killers don't HAVE to play the most broken thing in the game to do well, and if they do, they probably shouldn't be highly ranked anyway. It's incredibly unlikely that changing Spirit would magically kill red ranks. Consider that most of these killer nerfs, buffs and reworks are coming alongside map reworks that make playing other killers less cumbersome, and a lot of fixes to things on the survivor side as well. It isn't as simple as "nerf Spirit, killer as a whole is dead."
Yes, there is a "next" after Spirit too, the devs basically gave a not-quite-concise list on the Q&A this week, mostly problematic add ons like Iridescent heads, or the Key/Mori situation. It doesn't mean 1 by 1 they're killing anything good, it's change to make both sides more enjoyable across the board by fixing overly strong aspects of the game that are oppressive because of how strong they are. Sadly, Spirit is one of those things.
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Your points about overperforming and buffing weaker killers is very true. If Spirit is genuinely overperforming in regard to what the devs consider the desired balancing goal, it makes absolutely no sense to try to buff anyone else up to her level or even close.
At this point I simply feel a lot of people have a mindset when viewing the game more suited for games geared towards esports from the ground up. Which is a mindset that is straight up incompatible with how DBD is designed and the goals we've heard the devs state in the past as it seems like they'd like it if both crushing defeats/0k and dominant victories/4k were more rare than they are today.
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”Overperforming” is a nice way of saying “we ######### up and it’s borderline unfair” lmao.
Your second point may be true yeah. Although, you can’t deny that some of her add ons are quite broken and that mind game potential against her is limited. That said, I don’t think she should get the legion treatment, but just some tweaks here and there.
I do believe buffing the weaker killers is the way to go after spirit has been addressed though.
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Nurse base kit got nerf probabaly because of how she ignore all defences a surivior has and also had less counter play.
A surivior can juke her, but how many times can that work? How many maps are indoor than out door? It's because of that which allowed Nurse to pretty much down a surivior within 20 seconds. She has no reason not to because she can instantly catch up with them and ignore their defence. So even though Nurse required skill, does it mean every killer should be broken when a player masters them?
The nerf in my opinion didn't seem bad for those that are good at using Nurse because all they really need was just two blinks. She still function like she did before so I doubt good nurses would complain.
That being said, I play on console so I hardly encounter a good nurse and don't really get the massive complain for nerf for her. I'm just assuming from the last time I played her and knocked down three suriviors while the exit gate was opening in just 1 minutes or less. So I can understand how strong she is(Even though the surivior was bad, I was just imagining what if I was good at her).
I don't know why I type that much. To put it simple, I don't really understand why her base kit got nerf and just typing what I thought from just a few gameplay and other people's reaction. I don't really care if they buff her again because I don't encounter good nurse player that often, but when i do the game finish with just two gens being done in red rank.
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It most 100% will lead to everything you said in your post. The question is whether or not they balance their game around every killer being in the same tier. Do you have faith that the devs can do that? Because I don't. And really, do you want every killer to perform the same? Is that really healthy for the gameplay of killers as a whole, for the people who play them?
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Hell I'm a killing me look at my post history if you don't believe it.
But spirit is legitimately the most annoying and unfun killer to go up against.
She literally has no counters.
You don't have iron will will guess what she's phasing and you can't see her or have any indication that she's on you.
She has collision whilst phasing this means that even if you do manage to successfully mind game her she could accidentally bump into you and get a successful hit because of that.
Her gameplay really isn't mind gaming.
It's not like a pig taking advantage of her Crouch and ambush at a pallet, ghostface using night shroud to hide which way he's going or a Freddy using his teleport to bait out a double back from the survivor.
Going up against spirit you literally play a guessing game and you only find out if you guessed right if you're not injured or downed afterwards.
That's not two different parties putting in the input and seen throughout plays each other like mind games meant to be in the examples I listed above. It's you rolling a die and hoping that you don't get anything above a 3.
It's not fun, it's not engaging it's simply annoying.
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I'd be all for if they Buff weaker killers and just left Spirit alone. Though, I also wouldn't mind if they made her footsteps louder/made her move grass/corn when she's fazing.
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I just buy Spirit with shards weeks ago and I have to say her power is so much fun to play, especially with the right perks setup.
I do think Spirit nerf should be around easier to surprise strike on Survivor, rather able to use Power in both surprise attack and mid chase.
Slow down activating power, increase phasing speed & duration. I also think remove colliding should also work.
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You are in the domino effect. It started with the changes to Nurse base kit. Spirit is just the next domino.
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You designed a killer that performs their job well and thats........bad?
Would you say the same if survivors overperformed in their job? I think not.
Overperforming is bad in a pvp game, which ideally should be as balanced as possible.
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People are tired of spirit because people see her for the most part in red ranks by now.
Yes i am annoyed by it as well but that is what many people told you pre basekit nurse nerfs. Here we are. I am shocked!
@ScottJund asked if there is enough interaction, not if spirit is op or not. His ideas were actually okay.
Next questions that needs to be solved is why there almost nothign else but spirit and will changing spirit solve this problem? I doubt it.
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Survivors already overperform. It's called 'genrush'.
Matches should not end in 3-5 minutes. That's barely 1 minute per hook attempt. But the second a Killer has enough map pressure to stop the genrush, or has any addons to slow down the game the Killer is OP or 'unfun', the addons are OP or 'unfun', or the perks are.
It's kind of a joke, how badly the Devs are nerfing viable killers while ignoring the underlying problem of gens being done way too fast. It's why I'm convinced there's a Survivor bias; because genrush exists while any Killer who can do anything about it get beaten to death with the nerf bat.
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The only changes she needs it making anal beads an ultra rare and not having collision while phasing
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I'm fine with that beads change, I don't think she needs the collision change however.
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I guess you have stats to base your assumptions on...
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Thank you for breaking the chain in this echo chamber. It's scary to see so many outirght ignoring the information we were given previously with regards to the spirit's performance.
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This is what is called "balance". If something is too powerful (in this case, Spirit, having a significantly higher kill rate than she should) it is going to be nerfed.
Is this something new?
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"From the information we're given (that she is "overperforming") we know she ISN'T balanced."
This entire assumption assumes their stats are correct and they have even themselves stated that their stats are flawed and shouldn't be used for balance.
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Exactly.
Buff other killers, then all could have red rank potential.
Just like the OP and @NuclearBurrito stated. We need to buff the weakest (starting with stealth killers... like wraith, pig, Myers etc.) Killers. They should be overpowered. But what's the point in nerfing "overpreforming" killers?
There isn't any. Unless it breaks the game.
That's just my thoughts.
-shrugs-
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Oh my god why do people think that adjusting Spirit due to her being extremely easy to play and extremely boring to play against means that we also can't buff weaker killers. Lmao god these forums hurt me.
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Play a match. Watch youtubers play; every match is 3-5 minutes these days.
Now look at every nerfed Killer; every one had some form of map pressure or perks/addons that could slow down the game.
NOW look at every perk or addon of Killer Survivors whine about: Again; it's the ones that can slow gen repair speed, or apply map pressure. Nurse was just beat to death. Legion was turned into a complete trash joke. Yes, he had bugs that needed fixing, but it was not bug fixes that turned FF into a power that does nothing. Spirit is being looked at for having map pressure. Hillbilly will be 'looked at' soon..because he has map pressure.
Survivors also whine nonstop about the Freddy addons that slow down the game. They also whine about NoED because, of course, they want to do gens in 3 minutes, ignoring bones, and not be punished for it.
Survivors also claim genrushing is fine while Survivor-Rushing (Tunneling) is unfair. They outright believe that doing 5 gens in 3 minutes is fine, but a Killer going after a wounded Survivor needs a punishment.
The Survivor bias is insanely obvious. Doing gens fast is 'just gameplay'. Killing Survivors fast is 'unfair', 'unfun', 'cheap', 'needs a punishment', etc.
And every time the Devs completely slaughter a Killer to ensure this status quo, they are proving that they feel the same way.
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Couldn't have said it better myself. Killers (both sides in fact but killers here) think that the devs are out to get them and are trying to ruin their fun and only help the other side when in fact they're just doing balance like any other game developer. It might just be because DbD is an asymmetric game that the us vs them mentality is amplified because the gameplay is literally us vs them style.
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They not only nerf viable killers, but they are also nerfing Mid-tier killers, look at Pig, she received three nerfs, and only 1 buff, and now they just nerfed Micheal Myers.
The Domino effect is that the OP is talking about is already happening. We are about to end a second Dark Times. The Devs through out balancing this game took 1 step forward, and are now taking two steps back.
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Your following feedback has been fed to the paper shreeder! We at BHVR always listen to our community feedback! (and by community we mean those who are biased and have little to no experience!)
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They've had mistaken stats in the past (using "rank 1" data didn't include people who depipped out of rank 1 that match) but that doesn't mean they're completely blind to what's going on.
One, they have to have some tracking of average kills on each killer, and by rank, to know how each is doing, and they've provided us with (some of) that information in the past.
Two, they have all the same access to the community we do. They hear all the complaints, they can see all the streamers demolishing with her, they can see her in their own games. I know people love tosay the devs suck at the game but we all know there's at least a few good players in there.
It's silly to deny they know how a killer is performing and that that's grounds for not nerfing something that's too strong, or too easy for the payoff it gives.
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So Perfectly said, I'm going to use this.
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It's not silly. We've just pointed out their stats are flawed and not reliable, so what they see as to how a killer is performing in those stats is not reliable.
Also, going by the communities perception of her strength is quite irrelevant. The average DBD player is low rank and will think something is stronger or weaker than it actually is.
Seeing streamers demolish with her is also quite meaningless for what we are trying to determine here.
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When the maximum performance level of survivors is at 10 and the nurse is at 8 and spirit is at 7, it didn't make very much sense to nerf nurse down to a 5. If spirit is even looked at I wouldn't touch red ranks with a 20 ft pole.
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A 5 for Nurse is generous.
Nurse kept her walking speed as 'slower than Survivors', so with her shiny, new cooldown bar that only starts after Fatigue, she is literal trash in a chase.
Because whoever balanced her somehow forgot that she had quick blinking BECAUSE she had no effing movement.
On a scale of 1 to 10, where 10 is Survivor-level, Nurse is a -9999. BHVR wanted to go for -10000 but they felt it would have been too much of a nerf and held back.
And guess what? Spirit is going to be turned into a Survivor Punching Bag...I mean 'looked at' next.
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Not just that. The stats where they made a "mistake" was quickly corrected. They know the correct stats.
There are people who just refuse to believe in what BHVR says because it doesn't fit their narrative.
If a Spirit Main is saying "Spirit isn't overperforming" and the stats are wrong when the devs stated the Spirit is overperforming based on the stats, you know there's some bias there.
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