The One Stop Shop for Legion ideas! Come on in and take a look VERSION 2!
I noticed that the other thread wasn't being bumped up any more, SO, Here's it again, brand new and Shiny! If you had ideas in my other thread, COME ON AND POST THEM AGAIN! Let's keep it alive this time!
So me and @LordGlint were talking about DBD and I told him that I was working on an Idea for Legion. I originally wanted something that hearkened back to there gang. Some kind of locker insanity or something but honestly, none of that would work, or at the very least it would be rather hard to put in game. So we started asking, what is Legion's main issue? Well, his power is kinda useless. By the time you slash one person, the rest have gone OR if they are injured they hear your TR and just book it.
First of all, let's take the removal of the blood trail in FF and the "M1s remove 50% of your power" things away. Those are silly and honestly, neither of us could come up with one good reason the Devs did that.
Secondly, DO NOT WORRY! We are not making his power lethal or put the chase on a "Timer". That is why people hated old Legion. We don't want that again.
So back to the main point. What do you do when you see Legion put deep wounds on someone nearby? You BOOK IT! You can't hide, but you can get away till they get hit with the end of power stun. Survivors know about There presence in advance in the general area... in other words the next victims.
So, you might be asking yourself, what do you do? Well it's simple! You could do one or more of these things!
- Remove his TR and red stain in FF. Just straight remove it so that he can run up on survivors and get them with FF and surprise them. Make the KI work on a radius. You could say there Frenzy is so great it cuts the ties the Entity have put on them for a limited time.
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Make his base TR 16 and his FF TR 24. Kinda a new approach to the same idea. This way would also open up Legion to be able to sneak up better on the people he has hit with his FF and need to m1 now to down. Legion is already the shortest Killer (yes, shorter than Hag) so they could FINALLY live up to the trailer and be even a LITTLE sneaky.) HI! This has been voted down by the others in the thread but keeping it up for Reference! - After hitting two survivors with Feral Frenzy the Legions red stain is removed for x amount of seconds which would help with downs. Third hit lowers terror radius by 8 meters for x amount of seconds which could help with hitting that last survivor. With monitor and abuse the terror radius will be 16 meters. Addons could influence this.
- First two survivors hit with Feral Frenzy grants 2% increased movement speed each while the third grants a 1% increase bringing their movement speed in Feral Frenzy up to 130%. (numbers might be too low?)
- At base, being hit with Feral Frenzy causes mangled that persists until fully healed. Can't be stacked with other mangled status effects like sloppy butcher but works with coulraphobia and the like. (After rereading this one, it's kinda Meh, so it wouldn't be good enough on it's own.)
- If a survivor stops mending then they are downed. Deep wound timer depletes while doing an action (mending, repairing, sabotaging and so on) even while near the killer. If not doing an action the deep wound timer does not deplete while within 32 meters of the killer.
You hit someone with FF and run off to hit someone else. You hit them and end your frenzy or don't make it ti them and end the power. When out of FF you hear the heartbeat and see the KI mark for a very short amount of time (for balance) every x amount of seconds while that first survivor is mending. (this was more of an Example)After thinking about it, I think @Kabu changed this one to Add-on only. Let me know if i'm wrong Kabu!
Thank you @Kabu For the 3-7 ideas and the next few add-ons till you get to Mob Mentality! I forgot to credit them before! Sorry!
"But what about the stun?" Well, if you think about it, it's similar to Nurse. It's there to make sure that you don't just end it and m1. You MIGHT be able to shorten it, but it's not bad because it serves it's purpose.
Add on suggestions:
- Survivors are revealed by killer instinct for a very short amount of time every x amount of seconds while mending When out of FF. See previous post for explanation.
- Survivors suffering from deep wound make louder injured noises. (This should be base, also make unique pain sounds, IE: more grunts and long, drawn out groans of pain)
- Survivors have their aura revealed for x amount of seconds when they stop mending.
Frank's mix tape rework: Hitting a survivor with FF then hitting another one and going back to hit the first survivor depletes the deep wound bar by a large amount. Maybe doesn't fully deplete the Frenzy bar but would still stun Legion. Would still be hard to down with frenzy but it adds pressure.Sorry Kabu, but the more I think about it the more I doubt you'd get in this situation too often.- Increases FF duration tremendously (5 to 8 seconds) but with increased stun duration (.5 seconds to 1 second)
- Survivors hit with FF suffer from the hindered status effect for a short time.
Honestly, even with JUST these changes, We think that Legion would be in a better place AND keep the play style that Legion players love. Maybe even add old FF speeds back? Edit: we NEED the old Vaulting speeds back. Being looped while in FF is the SADDEST feeling.
Also shoutout to @Frosty for getting me to think of this in the first place and for wanting me to post it.
This doesn't have many thoughts on Mending and Deep Wounds, cause after BT got it too, it's no longer just a Legion Issue.
AND NOW for a REALLY good idea from @MongByeolBuddies
Here's my idea to help with, imo, Legion's two main problems:
* For killers, that’s getting a second hit and downing the survivor.
* For survivors, it's having to mend, which is boring and makes Legion obnoxious to go against.
My solution -- Change the Deep Wound status effect and give Legion a secondary power -- Mob Mentality.
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Feral Frenzy:
Hitting a survivor not affected by the Deep Wound status effect during Feral Frenzy applies DW and gives Legion 1 charge of Mob Mentality.
Deep Wound now applies a 20 percent penalty to repair, healing and sabotage speeds.
Survivors now remove the DW status effect by healing to full health, not by mending. DW lasts indefinitely.
Hitting a survivor affected by DW during Feral Frenzy applies 1 more DW. Survivors suffering from 4 Deep Wounds will enter the dying state. This will be tracked on the HUD.
Legion cannot use Mob Mentality during Feral Frenzy.
Legion can have up to 3 charges of Mob Mentality at one time.
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Mob Mentality:
Press the secondary power button to use 1 charge and summon a Legion member.
Any survivor within 16 meters of Legion will hear an audio cue -- a whistle -- when Mob Mentality is used.
The Legion member will appear 2 seconds later, crouched down in the spot you summoned him or her and wait for any survivor to get within range. When a survivor is within range, the Legion member will lunge at the survivor and attempt to hit them.
If a healthy survivor is hit, he or she will be injured; if an injured survivor is hit, he or she will enter the dying state.
Regardless of whether the hit connects, the Legion member will dissipate in a cloud of smoke.
Legion can summon all three other members this way. If Legion summons a member while all three members are currently on the map, the first member to be summoned will switch to the new location. Legion cannot summon members within 8 meters of another member.
Survivors within 16 meters of Legion members can detect them by looking in their direction for 3 seconds. During detection, survivors will receive an audio cue. Once fully detected, the Legion members will dissipate in a cloud of smoke.
If a survivor sets off a Mob Mentality trap, the Legion receives an audio and visual cue. If survivors fully detect a Legion member, the Legion does not receive an audio and visual cue.
Also, Mob Mentality is a trap so perks, such as Small Game, will work against it.
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Add-on changes to reflect the new Deep Wound status effect and Mob Mentality:
Smiley Face Pin -- Start with 1 charge of Mob Mentality.
Defaced Smiley Pin -- Start with 1 charge of Mob Mentality. The auras of survivors who fully detect a Legion member or are hit by him or her are revealed for 3 seconds.
The Legion Pin -- Start with 2 charges of Mob Mentality. The auras of survivors who fully detect a Legion member or are hit by him or her are revealed for 5 seconds.
Nasty Blade -- Slightly increases the penalty to Repair, Healing and Sabotage speeds (5 percent) to survivors suffering from the Deep Wound status effect.
Filthy Blade -- Moderately increases the penalty to the Repair, Healing and Sabotage speeds (10 percent) to survivors suffering from the Deep Wound status effect.
Frank’s Mixed Tape -- Legion members are invisible to survivors outside of 8 meters.
Fuming Mixed Tape -- Legion no longer needs charges to use Mob Mentality. MM now has a 10-second cooldown. The Legion can no longer use Feral Frenzy.
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This will allow Legion to still be a rush down killer and buffs them by providing them a tool -- Mob Mentality -- to counter looping, as well as set ambushes.
This new change also allows Legion to use Mob Mentality whenever Legion wants (albeit not in Feral Frenzy), and the survivor will only be aware that Legion has used MM if the survivor is within 16 meters of Legion when MM is used.
The change to the DW status effect also means survivors no longer have to worry about mending. Survivors suffering from DW can heal themselves back to full health slightly slower than normal or the survivor can find a teammate not suffering from DW to heal back to full health without any speed penalty -- making going against Legion more enjoyable for survivors.
(This also would get rid of a few not strictly Legion problems: Nurse’s Calling not detecting mending and other anti-healing perks not affecting mending, and killers who can drop their terror radiuses like Freddy and The Pig making the DW timer tick down while still chasing a survivor, which feels cheap.)
(Borrowed Time can be changed to something like: After unhooking a Survivor within the Killer's Terror Radius, for 11/13/15 seconds, any damage taken that would put the unhooked Survivor into the Dying State will instead apply the Deep Wound status effect.)
Plus, I think it would be awesome for Legion to actually play like, you know, a Legion! Lastly, if possible, it would be extremely cool if the teammates you summoned could wear any cosmetics you’ve acquired, making it so you could customize the look of your own Legion.
And now a variation of the above by @pemberley !
I propose that we take the same concept of Mob Mentality but instead the member seizes and holds the survivor in place for the player to stab. Every player in the map gets a scream notification, the killer sees the aura too. The grasp is inescapable except through other flashlight or cracker saves, if the survivor has a cracker themselves, or if the survivor “wiggles” like normal and claws at their hand or elbows them in the face - this would disable the trap, I think this would be more in line with Legion, it’s lore friendly, and probably won’t require as much code spaghetti as making accurate ai.
Which Mong added that the grab could give them either Exposed/Oblivious or both cause they are fighting out of the grab! Even if it didn't there are Add-on ideas that could do it!
Comments
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Hey! I decided to make this a area for smaller changes to the Legion that I agree with! Though I see these as more of a buff than a rework, they still keep to what I'd like to see in a Legion update. Would be good for "Bite Size" updates to try and help Legion!
now and idea from @TWiXT
Honestly Legion was, without any doubt, pretty broken at release, but what the devs have done to them has been less of a balance for them, and more of an overkill reaction to the communities complaints. Don't get me wrong, many of the complaints against Legion were well founded, and I wouldn't go so far as to give them back their previous abilities, but a nice middle ground that makes their power a threat again would be welcomed in my book.
I have read your suggestions, and while I like them, I feel it's probably better to start smaller on things to try and make the Legion more viable. For this I'll offer my own 2 suggestions:
- Give Legion back their previous movement and vaulting speeds. In the current build the Legion only benefits from afflicting DW to survivors if they can effectively chain the affliction to multiple survivors on the team. This is impossible in most circumstances currently, due to their slower movement and vaulting speeds, which give survivors far too much wiggle room to evade the Legion until their power runs out. The original version of the Legion still had this problem, but a good player could manage to get all 4 on a mid sized map before their power ran out. This emphasized skill and incentive to try for the 4 hits because it was a possibility with the right add-on's. Current Legion however only does this when the map is very small, or if every survivor is focusing on the same gen, but even then, they typically only hit 2 at the most due to survivors scattering like cockroaches as soon as the first one is struck. Current Legion moves at 5 m/s while in frenzy, whereas old Legion moved at 5.25m/s. Old Legion also Vaulted at the same rate survivors did, but current Legion Vaults at .5 seconds slower than they do, or at the same rate Bamboozle grants to a killer. Comparatively, Old Legions main advantage was the ability to catch up and keep up with survivors, but they also had a 2 second cooldown to slow them down, with that currently increased to 4 seconds, I see no reason why they need to be any slower in Frenzy.
- Reduce the Deep Wounds timer from 30 seconds, to 10. When Legion was changed the Devs already did enough to reduce the Deep Wounds Status effect from a threat to being completely non-threatening, simply by making the timer pause whenever in the killers TR, and making it pause again while the survivor mends. The fact that it retained its 30 second timer is a grossly unjustified at this point. The TR pause alone already killed the possibility of a Legion player "Moonwalking" to allow the timer to bleed them out, but the pause on the mend timer... seriously? As if a survivor outside of the Legions TR and thus out of immediate danger isn't going to immediately start mending? If the timer were 10 seconds instead of 30, survivors would have to pay much more attention to the DW status, and be much more vigilant to mend as soon as they are out of the TR. The Franklin's Mix tape also could benefit in this effect if it reduced the timer by 5 second, which would make a 2 hit + 4 second stun much more worth while if the survivor left the killers TR, and thus make the add-on significant;y more useful than it currently is (by my calculations, to down a survivor with the current FMT add-on, Legion would need to relentlessly pursue and keep striking a survivor for 80+ seconds). IMO, This would make the DW status effect a threat again, and TBH, that is what the Legion really needs right now... to have a power that is either more beneficial to their map control, or a dire and looming threat to survivors affected by it at all times.
There's my 2 cents on the initial and minor buffs I believe the devs should test in an upcoming PTB in order to try and bring Legion more viability than they currently have. It's not much, but the way I see it, Legions game mechanics have always been on a knifes edge since day one. Sway only a little from 1 side to the other and you go from being pathetic to OP or vice versa. Finding a balance with that is really tricky, and doing it right means taking small steps... to that end I feel that either of these minor changes are a good place to start.
Now an idea from @Deadeye
If we stay with the new version of Legion, I would also suggest a Power rework. If not, at least the following changes might help:
- put bleed out survivors into the same state like Madness 3, so they need to mend before they can do anything else. Almost everyone knows that the first Frenzy hit will make Legion run away from you, so many survivors just run to the closest gen, knowing Legion chases someone else and being save as long as inside the TR. Which is kinda stoopid
- When hitting bleeding survivors in Frenzy, there should be any effect applied by default. It is simply unfair that Legion is the only killer that gets punished for using his power. I have seen bleeding survivors body block healthy survivors to cancel the power, without taking any negative effect for that. That should not be the case.
- There are a lot of easy loops that can be abused by running it 3 times to run out of Frenzy. Even the killer shack offers this possibility. If Frenzy does not even help to get easier first hits and just is about the "information", it is really the most useless power of all. increase the vaulting speed again.
- I loved the slashing of old Legion but also understand the change to break the power after a miss. But I would suggest to just reduce the power gauge for each hit. Like 10% after a click and 25% after a lunge. Or something like that. Of course adjustable but don't forget that on average the "running" still will take like 60-80% of the power.
- Fun Fact: talking about "running", a trapper with 3 stacks of Play With Your Food walks faster than Legion is running in Feral Frenzy.
That last one makes me sad, btw.
Another interesting Idea from @Dreamnomad ! Numbers might need some work though.
I want to see for Legion is for their to be some effect when hitting a survivor with deep wounds while in frenzy. It makes absolutely no logical sense for there to be zero effect when a survivor is stabbed. What I propose is for there to be a new effect introduced in the game. For now let's call it "nerve damage". A survivor with nerve damage has 30% reduced speed for all actions (including mending) until fully healed or placed on a hook. This would give Legion a choice and a reason to ignore a survivor.
Also, maybe adding a reduction to repair speed (etc.) while a survivor needs to Mend. I'm sure this has been mentioned somewhere but I wanna put it here and can't find it.
and idea from @PGJSF !
BTW yes, as I already said on the other topic, Mending should apply the Oblivious status effect should be considered a healing action. I am convinced that these two changes alone would move Legion from “bottom” to “mid” tier. (I like the ideas! But I think they should also come with an increase to base FF MS and Vaulting speeds! Or something!!- {Ulven})
now a good idea from the wonderfully named @KnifeaToMeetYaXD
I've been following this thread for a while, and I'm glad to see a big Legion thread has been created. Hopefully the devs pay these ideas a thought.
My ideas:
Frenzy: Increase vaulting speed back to original speed. Increase speed to 135% but lower length by 2 seconds. Reduce cooldown to 3 seconds. Every successful hit on a non-deep wounded survivors reduces cooldown by .5 seconds. Missed attacks reduce 50% of the meter. Landing a successful hit no longer reduces the power gauge. The power gauge now refills in 15 seconds instead of 20. Terror Radius is reduced to 24 meters during Frenzy. The red-outline on survivors marked by Killer Instinct will be displayed once again.
Deep Wounds: While inflicted, the survivor can not preform actions such as repairing, healing others, or breaking totems. Mending now has skill checks. Failing a Mending skill check will interrupt the action and reduce 30% of the meter, or down the survivor if there is less than 30% remaining. Deep Wounds Time reduced to 10 seconds. Feral Frenzy attacks reduce Deep Wounds by 2.5 seconds, however the meter cannot be reduced under 2.5 seconds this way. Deep Wounds reduces while mending, however, the survivor will not be downed if they are mending when the time reaches 0, but while be downed if they cancel mending. Mending time is also increased by 5 seconds.
and now an idea from @Auron471 !
Feral Frenzy CD meter will not get drained when M1ing a survivor.
You will not lose FF if you hit a survivor with deep wound. (The deep wound timer is still NOT affected by multiple FF hits). Hitting a different survivor each time will refresh the timer AND increase the max FF timer by 3s. Hitting the same survivor two times in a row will not grant t he 3s bonus. (You lose these bonuses when FF ends)
Activate FF and hit your first survivor: the max time for FF goes from 10 to 13. Then you switch targets and hit a 2nd survivor. Now you have 16s to find another survivor. And so on. This bonus has a max time of 20s.
FF has a built in bloodhound. (But significantly weaker)
FF has a CD of 15s instead of 20s.
Killer instinct lingers for 5s after FF has ended
FF will apply hemorrhage for 30s if the hit survivor was healthy. 60s if injured. (Hit survivors twice to apply 60s of hemorrhage.)
The Pin addons: Apply 30s of the status effect if the survivor was healthy. Apply 60s if they are injured. No need to double tap injured survivors.
Iridescent Button: In addition, it also hides the red stain for 60s after hitting a survivor with FF. regain the red stain after hitting another survivor.
You can track blood in FF. You cannot track scratch marks
Franks Mixtape: Considerably reduces the time required to mend. Tremendously increases running speed, and vaulting speed.
Add-ons!
These are by @PGJSF !
I also think, like everyone else, that most of his addons are in need of a rework. I don’t have many ideas, but here we go.
- Some addons should enhance Legion’s movement speed while in Feral Frenzy in some way.
- Apply the Broken status effect on a time limit could stay, but should be easier to accomplish. Hitting twice the same survivor just to process Broken is pointless since he’s going to be injured and in front of you anyway.
- Those addons that improve the duration of FF should simply be buffed.
- Frank’s Mixtape should make Legion Undetected while in FF.
- I feel we could use a purple addon to see scratchmarks.
- We could also use a green which applies Exhaustion on DW.
Also I fully agree on having a shorter cooldown for FF and removing the M1 penalty.
now for some by @KnifeaToMeetYaXD
In continuation to my previous post, I will also be listing off ways to changes Legion's addons. However do note that these addons are based of MY CHANGES. So an addon that might not make sense currently, WOULD make sense with my changes. Please give any feedback or questions as I will gladly answer them :D
Common Addons:
Smiley Face Pin: Gives Blindness for 120 seconds and is done on Intial FF hit.
Scratched Ruler: No change
Mischief List: Increases Duration by 1 second
Friendship Bracelet: Increase Killer Instinct by 4m, and increase FF movement speed by 3%
Uncommon Addons:
Never-Sleep Pills: Increase Killer Instinct by 8m, and Increase FF movement speed by 4%
Mural Sketch: Increase FF duration by 1.75 seconds
Julie's Mixtape: Increase vaulting speeds during FF by 10%
Etched Ruler: FF refills 4 seconds faster
Defaced Smiley Pin: Gives Mangled for 120 seconds and is done on intial FF hit
Rare Addons:
The Legion Pin: Gives Broken status effect for 120 seconds and is done on intial FF hit
Susie's Mixtape: Increases Killer Instinct by 16m and increases FF movement speed by 5%
Stolen Sketchbook: Increases FF Duration by 2.5 seconds
Nasty Blade: Considerably reduce Mending Skill Check Zones sizes, and increase failure penalty to 50% of Deep Wounds timer
Joey's Mixtape: Increases vaulting speed during FF by 20%
Very Rare Addons:
Stab Wounds Study: Hitting a Deep Wounded survivor with FF reduces the time to 2.5 seconds instantly
Frank's Mixtape: Pallets dropped on the Legion during FF are instantly broken. Stun time from FF and pallets dropped on the Legion during FF increased to 3.5 seconds
Filthy Blade: Tremendously reduce Mending Skill Check zones sizes, and failing a skill check will down the survivor regardless of how much is left on their timer
Cold Dirt: The cooldown time is reduced by .75 seconds instead of .5 seconds for the first 2 survivors inflicted with Deep Wounds
Ultra Rare Addons:
Iridescent Button: The terror radius and Killer Instinct cover the entire map, pallets vaulted are broken, and FF movement speed is increased by 10%. FF duration is reduced by 2 seconds
Fuming Mixtape: Windows vaulted during FF are blocked for its duration and 10 seconds after it. Scratch Mark's and blood are now visible, however Killer Instinct cannot be triggered. Hitting a survivor will injure them or down them if they are already injured. Missing an attack will end the power. Hitting a survivor will end the power. FF duration increased by 2 seconds, charge time is increased by 15 seconds.
Tell me what yall think!
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Welcome back
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Thank you! I hope I can stick around this time!
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welcome back daddy
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Thank ya! I just hope we can get the ideas flowing in here again!
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Welcome back!
I have a theory why the devs nerfed Legion this patch. It's because you weren't around.
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Maybe! Gotta get that love flowing for Legion again!
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and now an Idea from @KillermainBTWm8 !
- Take away the idiotic thing where you can't see blood and scratchies in FF
- Take away the punishment for missing you can have a short speed reduction or something for missing. The power isn't a lethal power so it shouldn't be punished so harshly for a mistake
- Increase FF movement speed on vaults and just in general it's way to slow currently in my opinion
- Mending needs some benefit other than making people hold m1 for longer. I'm not saying bring moonwalk back but it needs some benefit
- Reduce his TR back to 24
- Make some of his add-ons useful. Not old franks mixtape level but they need to be better
- Let him be able to toggle his power whenever again and not be restricted by a CD
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some perk rework ideas from @StarMoral
Discordance: Reverse the times per rank.
When 2 or more survivors are working on the same generator, the gen is highlighted and you are notified every 12/10/8 seconds.
Mad Grit: Meme Perk, go have some fun with it. I got no ideas.
Iron Maiden: Make faster opening baseline, extend Exposed, survivors scream AND have their aura shown.
You open locker 50% faster
When a survivor exits the locker, they scream, revealing their location for 3 seconds, and their aura is shown for 3/4/5 seconds.
They also suffer from the Exposed status effect for 40/50/60 seconds.
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and now some input from @Volfawott
I would like to see them get some of rework to see that power makes the become more impactful the only thing I like about it currently is vaulting pallets.
If that's not the case then these will be some suggestions
Blood
Revert the blood-stained restriction moonwalk exploit is no longer a thing there is no need to have this.
Killer instinct
Can we have the orange outline back for killer instinct the pulsing in the corn is not helpful I have no clue where it was removed in the first place.
Missed attacks
With the restriction that you need a full bar to activate frenzy again there's no point in having a missed swing completely delete the bar but it can still cancel you out of frenzy but have it either cancel you out and half your current progression or just cancel you out of it and keep the remaining progression.
Double tapping
Have an incentive for double tapping a survivor ( no the add-ons don't count)
Firstly they're are add-ons the incentive should be baseline second the benefits they give aren't worth the add-on slot.
Pins: blindness, pseudo sloppy Butcher and even broken are not worth the amount of extra time I waste double tapping you then chasing you with a distance advantage on your side when I could just cancel my power and down you normally
Frank's mixtape: There is very little point in smacking someone with this if you're just going to chase them anyway. ( At least with the pins you can make the excuse of activating the condition and leaving to do something else)
Also considering all the things that will pause the timer it's unlikely you'll ever going to run into a survivor who is just about collapse from Deep wounds
As I said before you waste more time giving them a speed boost whilst going into fatigue then having to catch up and initiate the actual chase than you would if you just cancelled out frenzy and initiate the chase without the speed boost from the second frenzy hit.
So Bassline they need something to incentivise a choice between cancelling a frenzy and risking the double tap.
Add-ons
I've already made posts and comments about their add-ons before so I don't feel like fully going into it again.
However
Fuming mixtape
Frank's mixtape
Stab wounds study
These need to be reworked they don't really work that well with the new kit
Get rid of all the add-ons that increase the killer instinct detection range and just replace increasing movement speed again. If I wanted a larger detection range I could just bring monitor and abuse or distressing
Also if a survivor starts running in advance you're not going to hit them so the last thing I need to do is just see more survivors I won't hit.
Make the pins either proc better effects or just have them proc on the first frenzy hit not the second I've spoken above about how ineffective double tapping is.
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Happy to see you back UlvenDagoth. :)
Personally I feel like Legion would be much more enjoyable with just a permanent Feral Frenzy.
- Hear me out; a Legion cannot down a Survivor while in Feral Frenzy. There's nothing they can do to pressure a Survivor while nearby and in Feral Frenzy.
- Exiting Feral Frenzy stuns the Legion longer than a pallet stun. Anyone who drops a pallet on a Feral Frenzying Legion is a goober; the Legion has to do worse than that to themselves anyway in order to actually down someone.
- Feral Frenzy also instantly ends on a missed attack, prevents seeing blood or scratchmarks, and cancels all aura reading while Killer Instinct is active.
- With all these penalties the power could easily not be on a timer and not be overly oppressive. IMO it would finally give the Legion the ability to do what they are supposed to do: hit multiple Survivors quickly and pressure them into mending while they chase one Survivor as an M1 Killer.
- Most games currently it's very difficult to actually hit multiple Survivors. People spread out vs Legion to deny them their power.
- With a permanent FF the Legion would at least always have the option to use their power how it's supposed to be used, instead of injuring one person quickly and then just stunning themselves because they only get 10 seconds of power, sans addons.
Legion needs a full rework.
Stuff like Mob Mentality. But a rework like that could also take years to see the light of day.
I think changing their addons up to be more interesting and unique, making Feral Frenzy permanent, and giving them more unique audio cues for Survivors (stuff like GF's Marked music for people effected by Killer Instinct) would be a great way to try and make them more fun until a full rework can be done.
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Ohhhh... so like an ON/OFF switch for there power? That's an interesting Idea! I kinda like it, and it would make some of the useless add-ons change.AND Good to be back! Thank you!
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Exactly! Given how nonlethal their power currently is, I don't see why it couldn't work like that.
The only addons you'd *need* to change would be the duration set; and those could just increase movement speed while Frenzying instead.
It's not exactly a complicated or super cool idea, but I hope that'd also make it fairly easy to implement.
And no problem, I'm just glad the most outspoken and chill pro-Legion person around here is back!
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I skimmed through everything and I had a few ideas to make Legion more viable while not putting survivors on a timer. I'm going to modify your number 6 idea, so tell me what you think!
- Survivors cannot cancel the mend action.
- Survivors cannot see their Deep Wound timer, just a Deep Wound bar to indicate that someone (or themselves) is in Deep Wounds.
- All killers can see the survivor's Deep Wound timer.
- Deep Wound timer pauses when a survivor is within 24 meters to the killer.
- Deep Wound timer will always deplete when the survivor is performing an action that has a progress bar (exception: Mending).
Basically, this makes Deep Wounds more dangerous if you don't take the status effect seriously by NOT hiding and mending your wounds. The timer cannot be abused by the killer because the survivor can pause it by mending or remaining within 24 meters to the killer. Therefore, the killer can't use the timer as a tracking device because they don't know what the survivor is doing to pause it. The survivor cannot see their Deep Wound timer, so they can't use it to track the killer with a persudo Whispers.
What do you think? 🤗😁
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I like it! It would be a good ban-aid fix while we wait for something better than Feral Frenzy. The more i've seen them trying to balance Feral Frenzy, the more I realize it's hard as hell to do.
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Thank you again! I really like your idea and hope it gets seen! Like i said a moment ago, it would be a good band-aid fix. I really think they might need to change Feral Frenzy, just cause it's so hard to balance right. It's either OP or worthless!
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I would also like to see the mend time nerf get reverted, and have a penalty if you're Deep Wounded while in the injured state.
I was thinking it takes 10%/20%/30%/40%/50% longer for the survivor to mend depending on how many times in a row they were put into Deep Wounds from the injured state.
Getting Deep Wounded from the healthy state won't have a penalty.
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makes sense to me. Either that or put a decrease on action speed OTHER THAN MENDING. Bleeding out shouldn't be non-threatening.
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I didn't read the complete thread yet, will catch up with it. But I didn't find mentions with quick search so: To make Bleed out a bit more of a threat, I would make it block any interactions like madness tier 3 does. I also think this change wouldn't nerf BT too much (unfortunately you always have to consider that because the same effect is applied to a beneficial survivor perk as well as to a threatening killer power...)
edit darn, found it in the main post XD but I let this in for the example below to underline my statement :D
Example what I did just recently that shows how unscary Frenzy is at the moment: I was working on a gen in a map's main building with someone else. Legion came in, frenzy hit me, running for the second. I was on my way out and noticed Legion stopped to kick the gen while in Frenzy. I rushed back, waiting for the kick to finish and tap the gen again. Legion noticed and came back. I waited at the gen to see if it gets kicked again to tap it again but Frenzy was cancelled, then I jumped through a window, leaving a 4-second-stunned Legion behind the window. So instead of a regressing gen and 2 injured survivors and being in chase with one of them, Legion was left out of a chase (or at least with quite some distance) with a non-regressing gen and just one injured survivor, just because I knew I'm save as long as Frenzy is active o.O
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A mention to the addon suggestion above, which I really love. This is one example of a bonus/drawback combination that makes sense and changes playstyle of a killer!
"Fuming mixtape allows to see scratch marks and bloodstains in FF but removes the killer instinct effect"
+100 to this one. Although this is pretty weak by itself, it would need a bit of tweaking as the killer instinct is more useful than the tracking ability because Frenzy is non-lethal.
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One of my big things is I don't want to be punished for whiffing during Feral Frenzy. FF is a non-lethal ability, anyway, so there's really no reason to have it be so strict. It's really punishing on console. If necessary, they could have a missed attack cooldown, but stunning yourself and losing FF because of a whiff is horrible design.
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EXACTLY! Feral Frenzy is either broken or useless. As it is right now, it's fricken useless. It needs to be changed. Your example shows that perfectly.
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I agree! Even on PC servers and auto aim really really screws you outta alot of hits.
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Delete feral frenzy. I was legion main but his ability can't be balanced really. Use that mob reality or whatever it is and make legion great again.
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Honestly the only way too fix legion is just a full on rework like Freddy. His power will either be too strong and uncounterable like Old Legion, or really weak and pathetic like New Legion. I can't see a way for him too be balanced without an entire overhaul.
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I made a Legion rework a while ago that some people enjoyed so I'll put it here, it isn't a complete rework.
When Legion starts the match they are Undetectable and cannot attack. Upon activating their Primary Ability, Legion, they receive their Terror Radius, Red Stain, and can attack normally. Legion can go to a Locker on the map and activate Legion to switch to a different member and receive the Undetectable status and be unable to attack once more. This can activated 4 times as there are 4 members and once you cycle through them activating each member you will be unable to have these effects back but can always change members.
Legion's Secondary Ability is Feral Frenzy. While in FF you run at 130% movement speed, can Vault Windows and Pallets, and hit Survivors, upon entering FF you scream in a rage notifying all Survivors. You are unable to down Survivors while in FF, whenever you hit a Survivor you recharge your power and are able to see the Auras of Survivors within your TR. If you manually end your power or it runs out your movement speed will be considerably decreased and your lunge is reduced for 2 seconds.
Add-ons will increase Duration of FF, add in effects for stabbing with FF, increasing the amount of times you activate Legion and become Undetectable.
Frank's Mix Tape---''Frank's heavy metal beats drown out what Survivors need to hear to survive'' Survivors are unable to hear you activate Feral Frenzy.
Stab Wounds Study---''Reading this thrilling study awakens a deadly ability'' When you stab a Survivor in FF you no longer see Auras but instead see Killer Instinct.
MY THOUGHTS
Basically this turns Legion from a slowdown Killer into a semi-stealthy Killer who uses their ability to track and move around the map with ease. By seeing Auras you give your own perk Iron Maiden actual synergy with your power as naturally Survivors will hear you activate FF and know to hide in a locker to avoid being seen, therefore Iron Maiden picks up the slack as an anti-counter.
Legion's stun is replaced with an out of breathe state as you don't scream when you're done you gasp as you're out of breath and that's why you move slower and hit shorter. I got this idea from The Oni as that's what happens when his Bloody Fury ends which is much more powerful than this.
Legion's formerly best add-ons will once again be top tier as both of them give Legion the edge in what will be his newest biggest flaw, Survivors knowing he's in FF. Frank's MT will stop Survivors from hearing you're in it and when they hear your TR they will naturally think you're just walking. Stab Wounds will instead give you back Killer Instinct so you can see Survivors hiding in lockers.
POSSIBLE ALTERNATE FORM OF FF
I don't know if this would be better but what if----To activate FF you have to hold down the power button and then it has a set amount of time you can use it similar to Hillbilly. When you strike a Survivor it does NOT recharge the power. If Legion's FF was similar to Hillbilly's power then it would be more reliable to use for traveling instead of injuring as you can just hold down the button and then full speed ahead. The downside comes from no recharge on hit but it is still fair since the ability can only injure.
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I'm still in love with the mob mentality idea, I think that alone would make the Legion more appealing. Let's hope the devs can and do pull from this feed back of they go back and touch Legion.
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EXACTLY what i realized with the new patch coming out! They need something better! I have Mob Mentality at the top of the list for that EXACT reason.
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I like this idea! I'm starting to like anything that gets rid of Deep Wounds on Feral Frenzy honestly. Deep Wounds is the main issue with Feral Frenzy in my eyes. It's so stupid to tie it onto Feral Frenzy, cause it makes it either BROKEN or useless. Deep Wounds is so nonthreatening it's ridiculous OR it's broken in half.
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Thanks, I wanted to bring in the feeling of being multiple killers while also keeping what we already enjoy which is constant stabbing and sprinting.
I really hope the Devs realize DW is the real problem, maybe they already have and are just trying to avoid doing anything about it for now since it could take a while.
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I really hope so! We need something new for Legion and Buffs for the other weaker Killers!
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Bleh! I am having a hard time finding other Legion Ideas! Did the upcoming nerfs kill everyone's hope?
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Does anyone else think Legion is being kept so bad as punishment for them being broken on release? I can't think of any other reason they are being treated this way. I think they should remove Deep Wound from Legion's power. That would make it 9879879879% earlier to fix.
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o-o um... why is this not going to the top of the list anymore? @MandyTalk
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Welp, As of the latest PTB, it seems the devs agreed with my assessment regarding their FF movement speed as they've given them their old movement and vaulting speed back. Testing this in the PTB gave me good feelings and helped their overall "Feel" when using FF, and although it didn't do much to increase their "threat", it did make chaining FF strikes a little easier to accomplish like I said it would. This was a good change for Legion, but unfortunately it was marred and completely ignored by another aspect the devs introduced in the PTB... The change to Beast of Prey, and addition of the new Oni perk Nemesis.
Honestly I tested BoP on Legion in the PTB to see if i could get the Undetectable status to activate so I could down survivors with DW. The problem with trying to down survivors this way was that I had to have an unbroken chase with the DW'd survivor for 15-20 seconds to after being stunned for 4 seconds coming out of FF to activate it, and maintain that chase for another 22.5 seconds (used Franks mix tape) without breaking pallets, losing the chase, or using FF, because doing any of those things immediately brought my TR back and paused the timer. I can see a really good Legion player accomplishing this, but that's still a 40+ second chase, where the killers target range for ending a chase should be under or around 20 seconds. Personally I didn't see it as a viable strategy at all, and if I FF'd again to knock the DW bar down more with FMT, that just added another 20+ seconds to the chase, and while it did ensure a down, it also was a colossal waste of time, and frustrating to make it work.
As for Nemesis... That one by comparison was much more useful. You DW the survivor, get blinded or stunned, and suddenly your TR is no longer pausing the timer for the next 45 seconds. You could actually pair it with the Enduring + Spirit Fury combo to ensure that if you didn't down them yourself, they were going to bleed out from DW. I've accomplished this scenario in the past similarly by using Dark Devotion, but the big difference between DD and Nemesis is that DD pauses the timer on the Obsession for 30 seconds while Nemesis ensured it would tick down. I haven't tried combo'ing DD+Nemesis, but if it works then it could be pretty nifty. Still, Legion with Nemesis had counter-play to it: Drop the pallet early without trying to stun Legion. Once survivors realized I had Nemesis, they did exactly that to keep DW from becoming a threat, and Nemesis only activated twice at most before they wised up and started using this counter-play strategy on me.
I wasn't able to test these as extensively as i normally would in the live build because wait times in the PTB were excruciating, and friends weren't always available to assist me in testing it. Now with the PTB closed, all we can do is wait until the live version to get a more thorough testing, but because tof the communities "over reaction" and outcries that the devs are "bringing old legion back", I get the feeling that either Legion or the perks will see a change before hitting the Live build. Its really a shame, because while the change to BoP and addition of Nemesis did make DW a threat again, they also have counter-play to them or were more of a waste of the killers time. I think the devs actually predicted this because they also shortened how long it takes to mend from 16 seconds to 12, and trust me, I had survivors mending every time they vaulted a pallet while i was attempting to get BoP to work since i couldn't break the pallet if i wanted to keep the BoP effect going, and that was a viable counter strategy. If the devs change these things from the PTB versions on a knee jerk reaction to the communities whining, then it'll only reassure my assumption that they don't give players gamer instincts enough credit.
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and now an idea from @xllxENIGMAxllx
BASIC ATTACK PENALTY
Remove the basic attack penalty from legion. I don't understand why you remove 50% of his power gauge when his power can't even kill.
FRANK'S MIX TAPE
Frank's mix tape is very bad for two reason.
- 1. He take 4 hits to down someone with it.
- 2. He take 24s to use the power again.
Combined with reason 1 he takes approximatively 1m 20s to down someone it's simply just bad and isn't worth to even use.
You could fix it by first making the frenzy cooldown to start with the fatigue like nurse then, you reduce the hit required by 2. Which make two hits to down and 40s to down if no hits have been missed.
(FRANK'S MIX TAPE) ALTERNATIVE CHANGE
Make it so he increase feral frenzy movement speed by 0,2 m/s.
DEEP WOUND STATUS EFFECT FIX
To solve once and for all the issues the DW can be exploited (moonwalk/no terror radius). Is to add a proximity radius. Proximity radius work like this.
Once you are in the proximity radius (close from the killer) the DW timer never go down no matter if he moonwalk or not / if he got a terror radius or not. Legion have a 32m terror radius so his proximity radius should be the same.
FURTHER CHANGE
If you want Legion to be mid-tier i think you should buff and remove some change then buff the useless add-ons. Let's get started.
- Fatigue : Take 4s and his fatigue add-ons reduce it by 0,625s (with very rare and rare CD reduction add-ons). He make pretty much no difference. I suggest you to revert the fatigue back to 3s. From that change Legion might become instant mid-tier.
- Movement Speed in Frenzy : you buffed his m/s with the PTB. They now move at 5,2 m/s is a great change but i would suggest that you also revert the old legion speed (it was 5,28 m/s) which is 2% movement speed. Current Legion move at 5,0 m/s (125%) PTB Legion move at 5,2 m/s (130%) and old Legion move at 5,28 m/s (132%).
- Frank's mix tape and Stab Wound Study add-ons : for FMT see above and for Stab Wound Study simply increase his value a bit.
- Cooldown : Old legion had a 15s cooldown but was able to use his power if his power gauge was recharged by at least 3%. Now current legion have a 20s cooldown and have to wait the full gauge to use his power. Simply revert his cooldown to 15s but keep the full gauge requirement.
CONCLUSION
After seeing many post and Gameplay from the PTB Legion despise the speed changes and pins changes is still a low tier killer. Their Fatigue is still to long and probably the major factor that make them very weak, They also got gauge penalty after each basic attack which make no sense anymore. Legion can't kill anymore so he make no sense to punish them for a power that is literally NON-LETHAL.
The legion nerf you've made by counting the frenzy as special attack destroy many perk synergy. Legion is not in a good place to allow such a nerf. I do understand why you did this nerf is to reduce the annoying aspect of his power but is not a good choice. The mending time nerf is another aspect that make legion even weaker and once again you did that make his power even less of a threat and annoyance.
@Almo You really want to please the legion fan and make legion a good killer without being an annoyance and any broken mechanics these is the way to go.
- Fatigue : reverted to 3s.
- Cooldown : reverted to 15s but with the full gauge requirement and starting with the fatigue like nurse.
- Frenzy Movement : reverted to 5,28% (132%).
- Basic attack penalty (gauge depletion on hits) removed.
- Keep the mending time to 12s (16s max with add-ons).
- Fix Frank's Mix Tape : ( By reducing the hits required by 2) or changing it to (Increase Frenzy Movement Speed by 0,2 m/s) Adjust the timer reduction accordingly with Stab Wound Study add-on and deep wound timer change.
- Fix DW exploit : by adding a proximity radius ( if you are close from legion from 1m to 32m) DW timer don't go down no matter if you are in chase/terror radius or legion having no terror radius. This will prevent legion from moonwalking/exploit the no terror radius perks.
- DW timer and Stab Wound Study changes : Reduce the Deep Wound timer to 15s from 30s. As for Stab Wound Study (considerably reduce the Deep Wound timer should reduce the timer by 5s). Frank's Mix Tape reduce moderably the Deep Wound timer per hit in frenzy. If Stab Wound Study is used with FMT all hit reduce 5s of the timer (still down in two hit). If FMT is used without SWS the timer is reduced by 7,5s per hit (which still down with two hit.)
Those change should make them mid-tier without making a broken killer like launch or the newly nemesis legion incoming.
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Yeah man. I hate to say it but i'm losing faith in the Devs. I don't know what to feel about the changes to Legion with removing all the Perk Synergies with Feral Frenzy and all. I think that they need to remove Deep Wound from Feral Frenzy and add something else. Deep wound is what makes Feral Frenzy so hard to balance, IMO.
Post edited by UlvenDagoth on0 -
Fixing this.
Post edited by UlvenDagoth on0 -
I'm not a mod, but I like the legion. These suggested changes are interesting.
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So, i'm testing this for @Gay Myers (Luzi) to see if it bumps up now...
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It seemed to have worked. It's up on my end.
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It did! Thank you so much for that!
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You got some interesting ideas friend. Full rework is gonna take years if that what's going to happen. I do think they can still save them but, they should listen when we are suggesting changes.
They keep trying to change them by their way they want. Issues here is that all they are doing only give them extra work at a later date. We try to save them those extra work.
Frenzy is a great power but devs is scared to make it too powerful due to old legion. Their increased speed from PTB is a good way to go. There is still some point to fix to make them good.
Add-ons changes
- Frank's Mix Tape : This add-ons is currently the worst add-on with Stab Wound Study. The goal of this add-on is to make legion like old basekit legion. I like the idea but there is two issue here. 1). you have to hit 5 times to down someone (1 for DW effect and 4 to down) 2). Fatigue and cooldown take 24s each time to reload (4x24s = 96s to down someone) it's not viable at all.
My idea to fix it is to reduce the hits required by 2 which make 3 hit to down (1 for DW effect and two down) These change make so he take 48s it's better but still bad anyway. As a rework he could be a movement speed increased during frenzy by 0,2 m/s (5%).
- Stab Wound Study : The add-ons could be great but current legion have no use to it for many reasons.
First reason is due to DW effect being too long (30s currently). Second reason is due to the timer not depleting in terror radius and while mending. So how to fix it ? i suggest first to reduce the deep wound timer to 15s and make so the add-on reduce the timer by 5s which make a total of 10s.
- Fuming Mix Tape : Many see that add-on being bad when he is not. The current Frenzy is what make it seem a weak add-on. I want devs to keep it but fix the various aspect of the frenzy i will explain further below.
- Susie Mix Tape/Never-Sleep Pills/Friendship Bracelet : Those add-ons is for me except FMT and SWS the worse legion can have. Iridescent Button is a better version of those.
Simply revert the old version (Increased Movement Speed during Frenzy).
Feral Frenzy changes
- Reduce the Fatigue back to 3s from 4s
- Revert old legion movement speed to 5,28 m/s from 5,2 m/s.
- Remove the Basic Attack penalty (power gauge draining after a basic attack)(This penalty reduce the gauge by 50% each hit) as legion is non-lethal by default he make no sense having this.
- Make so the cooldown recharge start with in fatigue like nurse (This will make the cooldown to 20s as intended instead of 24s).
Note: As mentioned above Fuming Mix Tape is bad because of the cooldown and the fatigue and also maybe the movement speed on some maps. With the reduced fatigue and faster movement speed he will allow you to be aggresive on gens and could work very good with a gen protector build.
Deep wounds changes
- Reduce the timer to 15s from 30s.
- While affected by Deep Wounds status effect survivors can't repair gens / do sabotage. (stall potential like doctor madness)
- Deep Wound timer don't go down while being at killer proximity (32m) , in chase , in terror radius and while mending.
- Deep Wound mending have now skill check. Missing a skill check reduce the timer by 5s.
Note: The proximity radius is there to prevent any exploit (moonwalk , no terror radius). As a placeholder while a better solution is found to make DW more threatening without exploit.
Note 2: As explained there's two add-ons that affect deep wound timer (Frank's mix Tape and Stab Wound Study). Like explained SWS should reduce the timer by 5s as for FMT he is supposed to down in two hits make it so he reduce the timer by 5s per hit. If FMT is used alone he should reduce the timer by 7,5s (still down in two hits).
QoL changes
- Discordance : Tier 1 highlight the generator for 12s / Tier 3 highlight the generator for 8s.
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Thank you for your idea! I'll have to read through it for some feedback on it!
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and now an idea from @ba_tetsuo !
Here's a set of changes I've been asking for since the original nerfs:
Since Legion is all about the rush of stabbing multiple people, while in FF give him a stacking MS bonus for each survivor hit. This bonus would be lost at the end of FF.
The MS bonus would apply to vaulting pallets and windows as well. Something like a + 0.1 or + 0.2 bonus per survivor hit.
Yea, 5.4/6/8 looks like a lot, but when you consider the amount of time each survivor has to run while you're going after the first 1 or 2, it still gives them plenty of time to get away.
Second, no one wants to look at the ground for 4 seconds while they're fatigued, so I suggest a 1.3 second stun at the end. When you math speeds out for how far you can travel while fatigued vs how far survivors can get, a 1.3 second stun gives the exact same numbers as a 4 second slow down.
I think these two changes would go a long way towards making legion a realistic threat again, without having to deal with the exploits from before.
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and update to @AhoyWolf 's idea, in answer to some questions about there rework.
Sorry for not telling these sooner. :)
1) Yes they will, but it will only work on healthy Survivors. (To keep it balanced)
2) DWs last? If you mean how long it takes to put a Survivor into the dying state it will be like tier 2 BT so 15 seconds.
3) Yes! I have quite a few!
- All pins will now apply on the first hit while in FF.
- The Legion Pin will now apply exhausted status effect for 60 seconds.
- Joey's Mix Tape decresed to 0.3 seconds from 0.4. (Since their cooldown will be shorter)
- Cold Dirt will now increase the movement speed while in FF by 10%.
- Frank's Mix Tape will now let you see scratch marks while in FF.
- Fuming Mix Tape will increase your movement speed in FF by 30% but it will decrese the duration of FF by 3 seconds.
Every other addon will stay the same.
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Honestly the more I think of it, the more I realize that Deep Wounds is what is holding Legion back. It's what makes Feral Frenzy so hard to balance and makes Legion either Broken in half or Useless. I think that the Devs should remove Deep Wound from Legion and replace it with something else.... with the best idea for that i've seen being Mob Mentality by Mong.@Peanits What do you think? Good idea?
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What happened to Janick's Idea here? It was a good one. What happened to Janick for that matter? Didn't he make Legion? Did they fire him for that? O_o
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As far as the Mob Mentality idea, do you worry about the implications of:
1) Deep Wound applying stackable reductions to healing, making it potentially a fair bit harder to remove the Deep Wound?
2? The "4 Deep Wounds to down a Survivor" aspect creating a similar situation to original Legion where there is too much inevitability and not enough counterplay (FF, apply two stacks, FF, apply a third stack, FF, apply a fourth stack and down)?
Of the ideas I see listed, I think the Mob Mentality idea (with the variation suggested by @pemberley ) is my favorite.
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This is part of why I think Deep Wounds should just be removed from Legion's power. It makes it all too hard to balance.
Though remember. Mending is somehow not "Healing."
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