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The reason behind "no kindred basekit" is stupid imo
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Probably cuz 85% are solos players lol
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If they balanced around pips, theyd have to change the emblem system for each killer as well. I have afew screenshots I like to pull out that show juicy black pips on games where I absolutely dominated survivor teams within afew minutes, resulting in a 4k with MAYBE 1 gen done.
The chaser emblem in particular really needs an update.
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What a truly enlightening argument that counteracts my points. Just because I disagree doesn't mean I'm not allowed to have an opinion. Nor does it mean your argument is more solid when you refuse to refute me.
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Seriously though. It earned its spot on my survivor builds. Extremely valuable perk, worth the slot. No idea why people aren't willing to let go of a single one of their perks for it...
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Leave me alone already, I don't want to discuss with you if you don't understand the basic ground of the topic.
Post edited by DwightOP on0 -
If Kindred is such an extremely valuable perk that is worth the perk slot, then what people should be asking themselves is, 'What entitles SWF to gain pretty much this same extreme advantage without having to use that perk slot?'
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I have used the perk in SWF and have not used it in SWF. The games I had it were smoother than the ones I did not. So while I will agree that SWF get something akin to Kindred, I will not agree that it’s the same, nor that Kindred does not help SWF.
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Why should survivors get kindred in basekit if killers aren't allowed ruin or any similar alternative? Survivor is already easier than killer, you don't need that big of a buff on top.
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Feel free to not respond to this if you don’t want to. I simply want to point out you gave half of the dev reason for not making Kindred basekit (too strong) and ignored the other half (would buff swf too). I came into the thread predominately to point that out. I then directed my other question from your first thread to the world, and no one was willing to answer. So, since I directly opened with the other half of the argument you used to start the thread. I think it’s safe to say I understand the base of the argument you’re trying to make.
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Kindred is a base perk that every survivor has access to. They don't need to level up a survivor to get it as a teachable. With the recent buff, why on EARTH wouldn't you use Kindred in your loadout as a solo survivor? Is it because you're afraid to sacrifice one of your precious meta perks? Cuz if that's the reason, then you suffer because you want to.
I 99% play solo survivor in red ranks and you can definitely afford to give up a perk slot for all the information buffed kindred gives you now. Expecting this type of information to be given for free is ridiculous to me.
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Another one who doesn't get the point. Gg lad, gg.
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How is Kindred an "extremely valuable perk, worth the perk slot" for SWF groups, to a point where it overrides the necessity for all other survivor perks?
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Solo doesn’t mean anything. If I am playing against four really good optimal solo survivors I will probably lose, as will most killers who aren’t playing Nurse or Spirit. Any good players is going to be able to keep the killer occupied for a while. SWF isn’t going to change this. Most SWF groups aren’t even good.
Giving a second objective to power exit gates just for an off chance you get decent survivors isn’t the way to go.
My point is that you don’t need a second objective to power exit gates when most players aren’t that great.
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I have missed your point, and that is why I asked for reason why Kindred should be base kit...
Your original post implies that Kindred should be base kit since Solos don't have the communication that SWF do... yet when I suggested open coms for all (which address your post's issue) you say it's not about giving solos coms. Hence why I asked for clarification.
If you are too 'lazy' to have a discussion. Don't start a thread in the discussion forms.
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SWF don’t get all the info Kindred gives. It gives you a lot of info easily. Even try hard SWF groups would have to have detailed lightning quick info and awareness to communicate the same information Kindred gives you.
This idea that a game can be balanced around coordinated SWF groups AND solo players while giving killers an equal chance against both is an adorable pipe dream. People fail to realize any buff for solo players will buff SWF also. So again, whine to BHVR to bring SWF DOWN to solo, not solos up.
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U never know what you verse since the devs still refuse to show an indication after the game ends if you versed solos or swf.
But if remember correctly, the majority is playing solo Q, so it can be a conclusion.
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If you open coms for solo, then the devs will say "hey, our job is done. Gap is closest. Use voice coms so you can still compete against the killer in solo Q. Oh, you dont want to talk with randoms or don't have a mic? Well, screw you. We haven't done anything to balance swf and solo outside of voice coms. Deal with it."
Hopefully this little thought experiment helped explaining myself.
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That's wrong.
Here some buffs that will NOT buff SWF at all:
- Totem counter in the HUD
- Chase indicator in the HUD
- showing a fully recovered survivor in dying state with a different aura colour
- Showing perk loudouts in the lobby to create synergies with randoms
Just to name a few. All of this won't make swf stronger at all
I agree, kindred would help swf aswell. But it would help them just a tiny bit, while solos will benefit muuuch much more. Ultimately, the gap would bridged a lot.
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How would a totem counter not help SWF? I’ve watched plenty of SWF on streams who get hit with Devour or NOED because they forgot how many totems they got.
Plus all of these are terrible for killers. Chase indicators on the HUD, totem counter, auras for fully healed slugs.... yikes 😆
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That's on them not counting/forgetting. When I play with friends I'm always able to write them via steam how many I did while being hooked.
Optimal swf with a healthy brain and good short memory wont care. If it's there: good. If not: no difference.
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Chase indicator = Gen rushing intensifies
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uh no duh bro but don’t worry killers will be balanced accordingly 😂
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SWF don’t get all the info Kindred gives. It gives you a lot of info easily.
What kind of information can Kindred give that SWF can't give that would also save them a lot of time?
Even try hard SWF groups would have to have detailed lightning quick info and awareness to communicate the same information Kindred gives you.
Part of being a "try hard SWF group" is being able to give important information as quickly as possible, and being able to communicate in the most efficient way possible. The failure to do so says more about the quality of that particular SWF than the effect of Kindred.
This idea that a game can be balanced around coordinated SWF groups AND solo players while giving killers an equal chance against both is an adorable pipe dream. People fail to realize any buff for solo players will buff SWF also. So again, whine to BHVR to bring SWF DOWN to solo, not solos up.
If you want to push the developers to nerf SWF down to solo/killer level, go for it - I personally don't mind that as long as the game gets balanced for all solo/SWF/killers at the highest level. The only reason why many people are pushing for solos/killers to be pushed up to SWF level is because that's what the developers are already claiming they want to do - the problem is they are doing it in the most sloppy, half-baked attempts possible and people are simply sick of the unbalance. If you truly believe that you are capable of changing the minds of developers and convince them to nerf SWF to solos/killers level, then more power to you.
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No, I stated that a very minuscule part of the players can use the info in the way you're trying to make it sound like. Yes, everyone on a party HAS the ability to talk, but most of them dont use it in the way you say.
You're trying to paint a picture with broad strokes, when it's literally less that 4% of groups that are even like that.
My point stands, stop trying to exaggerate and incite this side vs side bs.
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I'm not. I'm calling out the stupid rational that too much info is a bad thing... in a game where the only group that benefits this change, is the one that lacks it in the first place.
Quit your hypocrisy...
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It's like saying "well every survivor has the ability to loop, but not everyone does it"
Who cares if not everyone does it? It's a potantional and it's used by tryhards and experienced players.
Btw, where did you pull out these 4% lol
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How about bbq/chili instead? Aura for aura.
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I've seen multiple people mention voice chat, but text chat is a way better alternative imo, how easy would it be to just type in "killer camping".
Way better solution that baseline kindred because let's be honest, kindred isn't just an anti-camp perk, it gives you way more information than just that.
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Depends on your definition of try hard. To me a SWF does not have to make super quick accurate call outs or have great perk synergy to be try hard. Just running the meta load outs and knocking out gens is try hard enough and very hard for most of the killers on the roster to combat.
Again, as a solo player, I run Kindred. It instantly tells me where every other survivor is exactly. Which direction the killer is going after the hook, exactly. Where a killer may place a trap, exactly. Whether someone else is in a chase and exactly where they are being chased. Most SWF don’t get this. At best you’ll get call outs that may or may not be super descriptive, and are very often not. With Kindred it’s all there instantly with zero effort required. That not only buffs solo, it buffs SWF.
And no, I don’t think they should bother nerfing SWF down to the level of solos because as I said, it’s not possible. Four random teammates, even great players, will be outclassed by equal levels that are in SWF. There’s no way to make them an even level. Even Apex Legends which goes far and beyond anything I’ve ever seen other games try to do to bridge the gap between solo and groups, can not replicate the group dynamic for solo players. The only thing BHVR can do is make in game voice chat which would essentially make everyone SWF.
Theyve had years to balance the game around SWF. They haven’t done it. Because they can’t. It’s a nice fantasy to want to solos buffed to match the OP status of SWF but the reality is that would just make killer pointless to play.
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Yes let’s make playing killer in the red ranks more frustrating! I love it!!!
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The survival rates will shoot up if they make solo as strong as swf because the game is rotten at the core.
Instead of fixing the issues, they want to keep solo survivors fodder for killers, so the killer players won't quit.
It is all about being lazy.
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I mean look.. I understand the frustration of getting camped in solo queue so I don’t mind ONLY showing the killer’s aura when he is near a hooked person.. but showing the whole team’s aura to each other when someone is hooked as a base kit is BS.. it feels like it punishes the killer for doing their objective by giving tones of free information to the survivors.
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SWF already has this information. It is already IN THE GAME like it or not. this needs to be baseline so the devs can balance around it.
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And the devs won't put it into the game cause it buffs bad SWFs which is the the whole ######### point why it should be basekit in the first place.
You make survivors less of an disorganised mess, you'll get better results when they go against killers. This will then tell you how 'good' your killers actually are and make proper adjustments if they're not.
The whole reasoning against this is just ######### stupid.
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Good point tbh.. if the devs truly gonna balance killers around it and make them viable then I’m fine with kindered being base kit.
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Lol just make kindred basekit and remove the ability to read killers aura
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I dont need to google it, I play Warframe a lot, im very intimately familiar with power creep.
Now you tell me how that applies here.
Im with you to some extent though, I for example find it super lame survivors get all these notifications now-a-days, like... most of them.... is that not just the skill/experience with the game? if someone goes down after the last gen is done and they were full health....well gee what could be going on there? thats just weird and not really so much pulling SWF and Solo together, I mean yeah SWF has an advantage there but Solo's if they know how the game works and pay attention will have the same knowledge.
But for this kindred thing, just something like it, we are not saying to just make kindred basekit, as some people suggested it could be a more subtle form of it, but its essential ot make SWF and Solo the same AND THEN, we can balance the game more for the killers now that survivors all have this info (instead of just the SWF players).
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That's the ultimate goal we want to achieve. I play both sides and I really want it balanced for everyone. But swf just had the upperhand if they really want to win and are somewhat good. So someone who play 50% killer and 40% solo Q survivor I really can see the unbalance and the power of swf. These 10% I play with 4 men swf we are completely steam rolling killers back to back. This has to stop. Solos need to get closer to SWF level, killers need serious buffs to combat high level swf groups.
Then, and I truly believe ONLY then we ALL can enjoy dbd.
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1) I don't think that's power creep. Power creep is basically when you start buffing stuff to the point it becomes ridiculous. That's what would happen if you made Kindred base kit and then buff killers accordingly. It would just lead to everything being ridiculously strong on both sides. You end up with a game where both sides are so powerful any small mistake will be a loss. This is what power creep eventually leads to. What you are talking about with Warframe is power fantasy, where the character is crazy powerful and can do all these amazing things. But you're not getting to a point where it becomes stupid. If you want to see what power creep looks like look no further than OP levels in Borderlands 2. The power creep in that game is real. While players have all kinds of stupidly overpowered builds at their disposal, the enemies are just as ridiculous. It's the point where you literally cannot kill something without abusing slag, health gates, weapon swap glitches, and broken scaling of certain abilities. Every enemy, even the smallest weakest ones, can one shot you to 1 HP (due to health gate). It's the entire reason OP levels were ditched for Borderlands 3 and why that game is just so much better end game (lack of content aside).
2) I was using Kindred on my alt account last night and it gives you an INSANE amount of information. Like way way too much to give someone at base kit. It's fine as a perk. Making it base kit would be serious overkill.
3) You can play solo just fine without Kindred. It's not necessary at all. You say it's to make up for the fact that SWF have this information, which is not true. Even highly coordinated SWF don't know every little detail about what other survivors or the killer are doing. Saying "I'm near the hook" is not the same as actually showing everyone where that person is. There is such a thing as miscommunication, which becomes non-existent when aura reads are in play.
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Ok maybe you and I do have a different definition of power creep :P
Powercreep is that an enemy has 10 HP, your weapon does 5 D, now a new weapon comes out that the players must want so it does 15 D, it 1 shots all the enemies. Now we need some challenge back so we introduce new enemies that now have 30 HP, now those original weapons are weak so they should be buffed.
Its just a silly endless numbers game were the only solution is to nerf it all back to "normal" and then rebalance.
Yes I agree kindred gives more clear info then SWF communicating, but SWF communicating gives WAAAAAY more info then not having it.
So again, we are not really saying kindred should be basekit, but some more subtle variation of it should be.
Someone suggested that maybe you see the hooked person emminating an aura that indicated if the killer is close or not, not where they are, just that they are close, and maybe you only see periodically where survivors are so you can see if anyone is going for the unhook so you can just stay on the gen.
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Power creep is an actual term. It's not my definition, it's THE definition.
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well yeah and its "power creep (uncountable)
- (collectible games, video games, role-playing games) The situation where updates to a game introduce more powerful units or abilities, leaving the older ones underpowered.
which is more what I described then you did.
Powercreep does not perse lead to 1 shot scenarios as shields and armor etc can also powercreep to insane levels compared to the shields from then the game was released.
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Updating the game and releasing new content is basically the same thing when we talk about power creep.
Again just look at Borderlands 2 OP levels. THAT is what power creep looks like.
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well this is very off topic now, I merely point out that power creep is developers releasing new content that is stronger then old/existing content to entice players to get it.
If that constandly happens (like in warframe) old gear gets more and more pointless, and powercreep in general is just cheap design, its like jump scares for a horror movie.
Im merely saying that what happens in BL2 as you described is and isnt power creep, because powercreep means ... everything, not just damage output.
If in Borderlands 2 you get 1 shot and they get 1 shot, then clearly the health/armor/shields etc have not undergone powercreep.
What in borderlands 2 si happening, as you described is not the same as in warframe, in warframe everything suffers from powercreep.
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But to bring it all back, in this case the ermm powercreep is already there with SWF over the ermm normal? game.
Again we are not really asking for just kindred as basekit, but a diluted version of it to bring solo games closer to SWF games and then have the ability to balance the game better.
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It seems the more I read the forums, the more I realize just how good IV does things. They don’t give a baseline Kindred, but they do give the killers aura away if they’re within 8 meters of the hook (or the equivalent distance.) this doesn’t mean they aren’t proxy camping, but you get a good distance out to pay attention and react accordingly as the Survivors. Not to mention, they have a quick chat system (albeit bugged atm) where you can send messages like “Focus on Decoding!” “Stay There! I’m coming for you!” “Get out of here!” “The Hunter is on me!” and “The Hunter has Detention!” (Detention=NOED)
just adding a “quick chat” system would improve solo survivor capabilities, and a Killer Kindred (not seeing Survivors) would be amazing.
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It's not off topic it's very relevant to the discussion.
The problem with power creep is that it fundamentally changes the game. Borderlands 2 changes from a game of dynamic builds with unique gear combinations to stuff that abuses glitches and health gating. Like there is literally no other way to play the game at OP10. There are maybe 20 pieces of gear that are viable, with another 10 being potentially viable with specific characters. And at least 5 pieces of gear are mandatory (eg. Sham, Antagonist, DPUH, Magic Missile, Grog). One shotting enemies while being one shot does not make the game better. It's just turns into a ######### show, and yes it is power creep because the games balance is thrown out the window. Like, in Halo if everyone started with Rocket Launchers in theory it's balanced because it's equal, but in practice it's not balanced because skill is irrelevant. You could be the best Halo player in the world and still die to a complete noob because there is no room for error, and no human can ever play perfectly.
In DBD you get power creep when you try to buff solos to the level of SWF. Now you have to buff killers, which then leads to buffing survivors, which then leads to buffing killers, ad infinitum. With the game being asymmetrical perfect balance is not easy. The current state of the game, killers V solos, is actually pretty well balanced. You're basically asking the devs to throw out everything just to make solos as good as SWF. It makes 1000x more sense to nerf SWF in some manner, probably by putting some restrictions (or conversely giving the killer a boost) as it's easier to implement without destroying the delicate balance we already have.
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"In DBD you get power creep when you try to buff solos to the level of SWF. Now you have to buff killers, which then leads to buffing survivors, which then leads to buffing killers, ad infinitum."
See this is just not a statement you can make, the game has been getting nerfs and buffs over the years and long time players all agree that right now is the most balanced the game has ever been, and while not perfect its a lot better then before.
There is a huge discrepency between SWF and Solo, the killer faces both equally so right now its either a unfair match or a fair match based soley on that, the more SWF and Solo are the same, the more a proper balance between killers and survivors can be made.
That is just the entire point.
"You're basically asking the devs to throw out everything just to make solos as good as SWF."
ERmm... no? what am I asking them to throw out? what is this "everything"?
And boosts based on SWF, now that is going to be a complete minefield of balance, what if there are 3 SWF players and 1 solo, different boost?, 2 SWF and 2 Solo, different boost again?
1 of the 3 SWF's dies, now its just 2 SWF's and 1 solo, does the boost dynamically reduce?
Honestly trying to balance for that is a far harder if not impossible job.
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"In DBD you get power creep when you try to buff solos to the level of SWF. Now you have to buff killers, which then leads to buffing survivors, which then leads to buffing killers, ad infinitum."
See this is just not a statement you can make, the game has been getting nerfs and buffs over the years and long time players all agree that right now is the most balanced the game has ever been, and while not perfect its a lot better then before.
There is a huge discrepency between SWF and Solo, the killer faces both equally so right now its either a unfair match or a fair match based soley on that, the more SWF and Solo are the same, the more a proper balance between killers and survivors can be made.
That is just the entire point. (not to mention the change to not see the killers perks till the game is finished is exactly one of those changes to bring SWF and Solo closer together as well as all the indicators you now have)
"You're basically asking the devs to throw out everything just to make solos as good as SWF."
ERmm... no? what am I asking them to throw out? what is this "everything"?
And boosts based on SWF, now that is going to be a complete minefield of balance, what if there are 3 SWF players and 1 solo, different boost?, 2 SWF and 2 Solo, different boost again?
1 of the 3 SWF's dies, now its just 2 SWF's and 1 solo, does the boost dynamically reduce?
Honestly trying to balance for that is a far harder if not impossible job.
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"There is a huge discrepency between SWF and Solo, the killer faces both equally so right now its either a unfair match or a fair match based soley on that"
Which is why you can't just boost solo survivors to SWF and then buff killers to compensate. If the game is balanced NOW in killer V solos, you are asking the devs to throw out the current balance of the game for a new one. That's like asking them to reinvent the wheel. It just makes way more sense to restrict SWF so they aren't as unfair. The fact is you can't make SWF and solos the same, and if you did it just breaks the game. Period end of story. You can't compensate without ruining the game.
Also by boosts I mean incentive to take the match. BP bonus, maybe emblem bonuses so it's not an automatic depip. Maybe you get to keep your add-ons. Stuff like that. I'm not saying make the killer stronger.
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Depends on your definition of try hard. To me a SWF does not have to make super quick accurate call outs or have great perk synergy to be try hard. Just running the meta load outs and knocking out gens is try hard enough and very hard for most of the killers on the roster to combat.
Your "try hard enough" isn't really "trying hard" if they are not communicating pertinent information effectively and quicky. Yes, "knocking out gens" would make winning difficult for most killers, but in order to do that, survivors need to be very aware not only of the killer's movements, but also of the other survivors. That's why Kindred is good for solos - to make up for the ability that SWF is capable of. Key words being "make up."
Again, as a solo player, I run Kindred. It instantly tells me where every other survivor is exactly. Which direction the killer is going after the hook, exactly. Where a killer may place a trap, exactly. Whether someone else is in a chase and exactly where they are being chased. Most SWF don’t get this. At best you’ll get call outs that may or may not be super descriptive, and are very often not. With Kindred it’s all there instantly with zero effort required. That not only buffs solo, it buffs SWF.
Again, good SWF are capable of communicating all of those things (if they are any good). Where the other survivors are - check. Which direction the killer is going - check. Where the killer is placing a trap - check. Whether someone else is in a chase - check. The exact positioning of these things hardly ever matter because the only things that needs to be clarified are 1. who should go rescue, 2. who should stay on gens, and 3. who is/should be in chase. The advantage of equipping Kindred on members of SWF is very minuscule. That's why, if they are any decent at SWF, there is no reason for them all to be equipping Kindred - it makes almost no difference to a good SWF group, and in fact, take up perk slots that could be used to make themselves more effective.
In addition, SWF still have advantages that Kindred doesn't. For example, let's say you are all far away from the hooked. Even if you are slightly closer than other survivors, you may want to finish your 90% generator first because you know that the killer has the PGTW perk equipped. As a solo with Kindred, you still have no way to relay that information to other randoms, while SWF can obtain that information even before the hooking happens, thereby getting into position much more quickly. Another example - even if you are farther away than the other survivors from the hook, you may have perks that may make up for that loss in time to get there, such as WMI (for non-camping killers) or BT (for camping/patrolling killers.) Again, no way to relay that to randoms as a solo, while SWF can take the initiative. Speaking of camping/patrolling killers, sometimes you actually may require two people to go rescue - one player as the new target and one player as the actual unhooker. Again, no way to communicate that to randoms, but SWF are able to do just that. You also spoke about traps earlier. It's true that sometimes Kindred can be helpful in the regard that everyone can see the trap-placing animation, but when you actually get close to the hooked, it's often difficult to determine exactly where it is so you are forced to slow down some, while SWF can simply direct where not to go. In addition, Kindred also only allows a Killer within a range of 16 meters to be shown, so even if the hooked survivor can see that the Killer has gone back to a strong chokepoint around the 20 meter range, there is no way to inform the survivor who is about to unhook you to not go in that direction. Again, good SWF can.
So in conclusion, even if Kindred is made base kit, it still certainly wouldn't make solos as strong as SWF - it would, however, bridge some of the massive gap between them at the highest level.
And no, I don’t think they should bother nerfing SWF down to the level of solos because as I said, it’s not possible.
No, what you said earlier was,
"So again, whine to BHVR to bring SWF DOWN to solo, not solos up."
But now you are saying BHVR shouldn't bother trying to bring solos/killers up to SWF level, NOR should they try to bring SWF down to solos/killers level. Basically - to give up on balancing the game. It's true that SWF will always be stronger than solos (as I just demonstrated in my example above), but to not even try to diminish the gap between them to make a more balanced game? To me, it sounds like you actually want an unbalanced game - where a good SWF will always dominate over good killers, and good killers to dominate over solos. Perhaps you are satisfied with how the balance is broken due to it, but the developers (and people who actually care about the game quality) should never be.
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