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The reason behind "no kindred basekit" is stupid imo
(before anyone cries "muuh why so rude to the devs, why insulting" blabla... THE REASON is stupid, not the person behind it. This is not against a Dev, so calm down. I'm not trying to insult the devs, it's not my intention.)
So I watched the last stream and when I heard the part about kindred basekit I nearly felt from my chair. "it's to powerful to see a killer camping"
Like what??? That's one of the biggest issues solos have to encounter.
Swf: "Uhm, killer camps me. Don't waste time coming, keep pumping gens. One dull totem left btw, he most likely has noed"
Solo Q: "hmm, why is noone saving him? Uhhh, I really have to leave this gen and run all the way to the other side of the map and unhook him..." 30 Seconds later: "Oh, killer camps. Well, back to my gen" wasting another 30 seconds. "btw, how many dull totems are left???"
And this whole process done by every individual in the solo Q Team.
Sorry, I'm speechless at this point.
Comments
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Ok so number 1, saying a person isnt stupid but everything they do is, is kinda still calling that person stupid.
But (nr2) dont shy away from that, I as well find that baffeling logic, the entire reason kindred was considered to be made basekit/mechanic was to make solo and SWF closer so they could balance better around it..... so yeah...
I mean sure, camping is considered a valid strategy and this would preeeeetty much kill it apart from killers fake leaving, so I understand something more subtle is needed but ultimately it helps everyone and makes the game beter.
If SWF and Solo are the same, we can balance the game around that, which means boosts for the killers here and there as well and better overall balance
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Bhvr can have really absurd reasoning at times.
Like the whole making perks for solos and for swf is stupid and is a waste of their time and resources to do, when they can just have everyone have the CHOICE of joining in game voice coms. Solving the whole bullshit with swf having perks for free and killers having crazy swingy inconsistent matches because solos take twice as long to do things. And also lighten the chances of killers dodging survivors because solos and swfs would play relatively similar to each other if htye can just communicate.
regardless on what's being discussed on is a positive or a negative thing, trying to talk to them about anything swf related is like talking to a wall.
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Where did I say that everything the dev did is stupid????
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I rather have the game balanced around no-voice coms (small gap between voice or no-voice), because otherwise I would feel the need to talk all the time while I enjoy playing without talking (or hearing randoms talk).
It's possible, a great example is Apex legends.
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If ruin becomes basekit then why not
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Better idea: 2nd must do objective
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Strange did they said that's the reason ? Because for me the powerful part is you can see where everyone else is and what they do. You can basically go help them with a gen or see where gens are on stupid maps like hawkins, you can see if someone needs healing or even where is the killer is if someone is running. It is a lot of info. Seeing the killer when is camping is last on the list. It is really great but it is just another kind of info that you don't wana need to have/use if I can say that.
They could've implement reworked version of kindred where it activates after some time. For example if the killer spend 15 seconds in some yards of the hook in the next 30 seconds his aura is revealed/similar to the current emblems punishment/. He leaves for 5/10 seconds and the aura is gone. For the survivors auras they can use the Rancor auras where u can see only location and you can't tell what is everyone doing. For example something like a ping every 5-10 seconds you see location auras so the survivors know if someone is going atleast for the hook
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Would you want that though? because I really think you will be shooting yourself in the foot with such a mechanic.
If its standard people will get used to it very fast and just hit hte skillchecks and rush the gens, hell that already happens a lot.
Much better would be for the survivors just to have extra objectives to slow it down, like them first having to find a gas cannister to fill up the gen before being able to repair it.
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The gap between solos and swf's will never close if their solutions will always be in perk forms.
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Yeah ofc, that's powerful aswell. But it's needed aswell. It's a need coordination. Otherwise 3 mates waste time running for the unhook... OR 3 mates stay at gens thinking someone else will unhook and the hooke guy gets 2 hooked
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Only after the randomize the totem locations and make sure those locations are well hidden and not directly in front of survivor spawns
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They're basically saying that kindred basekit would be too powerful. Like #########.
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This!!!! After 3 years, devs still think they can fix the game with perks lol
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I agree with the secondary objective but until then, ruin should be basekit. In this way, I can play with 4 perks instead of 3 if it goes down
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Making Hex:Ruin basekit would RUIN the game. In all seriousness though, that would actually ruin the game it will never happen.
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Given that there's no possible buff that the killer can receive to offset the free flow of information between SWF without breaking the game in their favor, the proposed plan of buff solo to SWF levels and then buff killers is never going to happen in the game's lifetime.
The best you'll get are band-aid fixes to perks which still leave solos at a disadvantage, as they are forced to give up build variety to 'be on par.'
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Step 1: Kindred basekit
Step 2: second must do objective
Step 3: more HUD information
Step 4: individual killer buffing
Step 5: tweaking
If the devs really wanted, they could do that in 1 year. But they don't want to.
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I think what DEVs meant is that Kindred as a basekit gives too much details when you can see the killer aura. Not only can you see that the killer is near the hooked person, but you can also see what exactly he is doing and where exactly he is standing or which way he is heading.
I know, I know, SWF kind of has access to that info, but I think in case with Kindred as a basekit this info it's just too precise for DEVs liking.
If that's really the case, they can just hide the killer aura and make the hooked person change color when the killer is within x meters of the hooked survivor. Or put a skull above him when killer is near or whatever. The killer aura is not really necessary if Kindred becomes basekit, just let us see other survivors and let us know if the killer is camping or not.
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I was the one who asked the question and got very disappointed with the answer. It just makes no sense to me. They want to bridge the gap between solos and SWF. Kindred can do exactly that. I don't even care if they nerf it so it's only like 6m around the hook you can see the killers aura. But basically a SWF can say "Hey, the killer is patrolling me, keep doing gens" while solos have to guess.
I don't think it'd be too strong, only help solos out. Besides I'm more interested in being able to see my teammates rather than killer camping. SWF can say "I'm going for the save, you just keep doing gens", only way solos can know this if they run Kindred, and I really don't agree with perks being something solo survs have to run to get on par with SWF.
It makes me sad to see, that they have the possibility to bridge the gap, a lot, by making this one perk basekit, but refuse to. Solos literally gain no more than what SWF already have.
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The way you wrote it makes it sound like they acknowledged that SWF has a power they find to be too powerful.
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Basekit kindred,totem counter and a chase indicator for all survivors along with a must do secondary objective and buffs to certain killers would be pretty fair in my opinion.
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Kind of side related, but I find it interesting that were told that there is no real significant survival increase as a SWF when killers complain about how broken it is, however at the same time they tell us they want to decrease the gap between solo and swf because of how significant the difference is.
This just sounds so contradicting.
So which is it, is SWF significant or not? If it wasn't significant then why are they trying to close the gap.
I'm not trying to start a conversation about whether SWF is op or not here, just pointing out the inconsistency of the information we've been given.
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Kindred not being basekit is the same reason BBQ is not basekit. While both have advantages they are weighed out by the disadvantages.
Remember the Devs also support Camping and Tunneling as legitimate tactics despite being openly unfond of them.
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I would like to point out that the devs ALSO said that it would buff SWF as well if they made Kindred basekit, which was the point I made the whole time in your first thread about this. And you never did answer my question about what four perks you find so important a survivor cannot possibly perform as well with Kindred in one of their place, because that's the only reason to be this determined to get Kindred basekit I can think of - it's an extremely powerful perk, so what four perks are so important you can't live without all of them?
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Stats reflect how deadly each killer is, based on the kill rate, but they don't reflect the experience during games. 4-man SWF team can humiliate the killer the entire game and when one member is hooked when all gens are done, the game can easily snowball, because SWF don't want to let their member die. For me that's one of the biggest reasons for this "contradiction".
And to be honest I'm very surprised that the difference between randoms and 4-man SWF is just 7%, it looks very strange to me. For those stats DEVs admitted that they had errors in that data for red ranks, maybe it influenced solo vs SWF stats too, I hope we will get new stats concerning solo vs SWF.
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A chase indicator would be way more problematic than most people realize - Everyone constantly aware of when they can crank out generators is not going to be healthy for the game, and is rarely an issue atm outside of good 3/4 man swf.
There's no secondary objective coming - I think that's pretty obvious at this point in the game's life cycle - It's not on the Year 4 Roadmap.
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I think the main issue for why it doesn't make sense is because we are looking at stats for kill rates. For example, you may see a 4k but in reality he had only 2 hooks before all gens were done and the gates were powered. He got a 4k because of things like NOED or as you mentioned all the SWF swarmed him trolling around at end game. That's why kill rates for determining how balanced killers are is very flawed. The 4k makes the killer look like he was strong or played well when he really didn't. It gives a false balance reading.
We'd fix this issue "mostly" by looking at pip rates instead. As this would allow us to separate games like the example I mentioned and see that he really didn't "win". I say mostly because we still have quite a few killers that get artificially punished with the current pip system with things such as one shots, but that can be easily fixed and ruins the "stats" much less than the more numerous flaws in going by kill rates.
"And to be honest I'm very surprised that the difference between randoms and 4-man SWF is just 7%"
Me as well, which is where my post of "contradictions" comes from as if it really was just 7% then their logic for changes between solo and swf doesn't make sense. I think the reality of it is that there are indeed A LOT of factors influencing the kill rates to such a significant degree to where they're near worthless. The devs kind of mentioned this as you said, but I think they down played how significant those factors are with the wording they chose.
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I run Kindred as a solo player. It’s huge. Not only does it let me know if I need to go for a save, I can see anyone who is in a chase even if they aren’t the obsession. I can also see if the killer is coming my way after hooking the survivor.
This effect base kit on every survivor would be stupid powerful. Not only are you by default getting all of this power but now you don’t even need to use a perk slot for it.
Like I honestly wonder sometimes what game people have been playing for years when they think of this stuff. Killers are already in a bad spot, why would it be healthy for the game to cripple them even more? What is this going to do to already bad killers like Trapper? Or trap using killers like Hag or Fred, now everyone can see that they are trapping an area up.
Its way too much information for a game built around your only way of communicating being literally two gestures.
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Yes...I wish they would add voice chat. It would end this tiresome debate once and for all. Of course give people the option to mute it ^^ I play better solo because I find coms distracting.
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I think a healthy way to incorporate Kindred into the basekit of survivors is to greatly reduce the range that the killer's aura can be read. It's 16 meters at level 3, but if it were added to the basekit it could be reduced to 10-12 meters or maybe even less. That way the more important information is prioritized (seeing everyone else).
As a solo player, I always use Kindred or at least most of the time, and it's given me so much help that I wouldn't have if I didn't use it. A lot of the time the people I play with are SWF and they always seem to do better than me.
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I don't get the Devs sometimes, They say over and over again that SWF isn't as strong as people think and most are just casual then why is this such an issue? SWF in coms already have base kindred so giving it to solo players wouldn't change that much.
Kindred being base kit is one of the best solutions to bridging the gap between solo and SWF, Then all you'd need to do is buff the killers a little to compensate.
Honestly I don't think it's ever going to happen anymore, It just seems like the Devs don't want to take on that load.
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YUPS. Voice chat should be off by default and people should opt in like in destiny 2. if they want to use it it. that way if people who dont like voice chat, the adition of adding voice change would not affect them whatsoever.
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It depends on what you want to express with stats, it also depends on how you define "victory", is it 3k-4k or a pip? I think for post killers it is number of kills. Let's be honest, if we want to know how "deadly" the killer is, then kill rate does its purpose and there is no better criteria that would be as simple. Really, there is none.
It doesn't tell us "why" and "how" someone got 4k and it's not supposed to, we just want to see how many survivors certain killer manages to kill on average, because most killers' main goal is to kill as many as possible. It doesn't matter if someone got 4k because of NOED or snowballing. Simplified (!), the killrate tells us, that if you play a certain killer and all factors in your games that influence the killrate are close to playerbase' average (it will be the case for most players), you will get a similar killrate.
I don't really know what you mean with "strong". I think a killer who gets 4k on average is stronger than a killer who gets 1k on average. Don't forget one important thing: we are talking about averages, so (again, simplified) on average both killers will get the same amount of NOED players, the same amount of snowballing games, same amount of over-altruistic SWF teams, so it doesn't matter if during a certain game someone wins because he snowballed, the other killer will also have such a game. It all gets averaged out, for all killers and for any large period of time, so killrates stay comparable and consistent, that's a sign of a good metric.
I think what many people mean, when saying that killrates don't reflect everything, is not the real performance but a theoretical performance. And indeed, if we compare a theoretical performance of SWF to a solo team, there will be a bigger difference than stats show us. And because of that bigger potential which SWF has, good coordinated SWF teams can play relaxed and bully the killer 90% of the game and die to being over-altruistic at the end, while solo survivors have to sweat to get the same result. So, what killrate doesn't reflect is the fun/frustration factor during games and theoretical potential, but it does reflect "deadliness" correctly.
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It's really not a contradiction, but more about how the data was inferred.
When Almo had last attempted to mock and minimalize the effect of the ~7% difference, this is the response I gave him:
For example, let's say that you have two sets of data: 100 games of solo games, and 100 games of 4-SWF games.
If the results of those 100 games of solos, in which every player attempted to fulfill their goal (surviving and killing) to the best of their abilities, is 200 escapes out of 400, it would result in a 50% survival rate.
Let's continue to suppose that in the 100 games of 4-SWF, 85 of these matches contain players who are "We just want to have fun with our friends - we're not even trying to win - most of the time, we just troll each other haha" crowd that we constantly, constantly see on the forums. Basically these are the majority of players who are not even attempting their best to fulfill their goal of surviving and instead, continually choose to make blatant bad decisions (over-altruism, overconfidence, etc) due to their focus being more on socializing with each other than actually focusing on the game. Let's say they are able to have 2 survivors escape on average (170 Escapes), in which their terrible gameplay decisions are offset by the advantage of communication. The other 15 matches have players who are 4-SWF who are actually trying their best to win (just like the killers) and are able to make good use of the advantage that they have. Let's say they are all able to 4-man escape (60 Escapes).
This 4-SWF scenario results in 230 escapes out of 400 or a survival rate of 57.5%, a survival rate increase of 7.5% compared to the games of solos, which is very close to the 7% you have presented yourself.
...as a developer, does that sound fair for the killers to you? Does it sound like a balanced game from the standpoint of game design? A game in which, if SWF is actually choosing to play to the best of their abilities, they are pretty much guaranteed to dominate the killer with a 100% win, and if SWF is just "having fun" or "trolling" or "memeing," they have an EQUAL chance of winning as the killers who are, unlike the SWF, trying their hardest to the best of their abilities?
This scenario doesn't even consider the ranking differences or incidences in which SWF chooses to DC all at once.
What's most disappointing is that this trivialization of the solo/SWF difference is coming directly from a developer - as if they have not an ounce of concern for the repeated outcry to balance the game for Solos/SWFs that's been going on for years. Despite the fact that it breaks the balance of the game, and makes the "buffs" and "nerfs" of killers meaningless since we don't even know what the killers are being balanced against. Despite the fact that it has continually been labeled as "unfun" from majority of people who don't play any SWF (whether as a solo survivor or killers) since its inception - and even now on the steam forum, has one of the longest threads (if not THE longest thread) on the problem of SWF. Despite these facts, developers such as @Almo continues to ignore the problem and pretend that they hardly matter. At times like this, I feel truly bad for Dead by Daylight - the game, for having developers who just seemingly don't care much about it.
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It's probably more down to how solo and swf play.
SWF are overly altruistic even with the information. They want to save them even if they are camping just because they are a friend and want them to get out. They can coordinate the save with more than one player to make it happen if they so wish and why they are stronger in that situation.
Solo on the other hand have no reason to save other than it benefits themselves. A camping killer would then mean less saves imo as overall looking at it objectively its a tool which just says stay on gens to them.
Just a thought looking from it from another perspective as its easy to see why something like this seems logical but it's sometimes more difficult to see what implications it could have.
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That's exactly what I'm trying to say, although SWF might have similar escape stats, but they are having much more fun, because they have a much higher potential compared to solo. And a killer is on average much more frustrated in games vs SWF, even if such games' escape rates are close to escape rates of solo survivors.
But just as a sidenote, it doesn't change anything about the killrates stats, it just means that as a killer you will be more frustrated in games vs SWF even if you get the same number of kills as vs a solo team. I'm not saying it's ok though.
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Agreed.
Saying Kindred would be too strong for Survivor basekit, is an admission that they know SWF on comms break the game and an admission that they aren't going to actually try to bring solo near their level.
With this, Sanctum of Wrath's map layout, removing the bugged Rank visibility in lobbies, and both Legion and Nurse apparently being in a totally fine and fun place right now I give up as far as balancing goes.
I just hope they don't mess with Huntress and Hillbilly too badly when they inevitably "take a look" at their add-ons.
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Or to rephrase. Even if it's ok balance wise, there are still problems beyond just balance.
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Yes, balance is ok, at least for killers and SWF. But the experience/fun for killers and solo is not. And fun is actually the main reason why we play games. And the main culprit for it is the huge gap in theoretical performance between Solo and SWF, not in the actual one in form of escape rates.
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The reason makes sense... killers can hide or go in any direction that SWFs can’t really indicate... perma wall-hacking the killer would be another broken thing like BT. Having some unsurity as a survivor slows you down more than you think... having a clear idea where the killer is 24/7 would make optimal teams rush gens ez pz.
If the killer is camping you’d simply wave your arms as a solo... stage 2 you can’t really do much to tell your teammthough.
They should add the survivor aura only for kindred and the kindred perk itself used to reveal the killer.
Likewise killer’s should get BBQ aura and use the perk for the BP and distortion should be buffed to a cooldown perk with this change.
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Ruin should never be basekit. You’re taking a gamble bringing in a hex perk knowing that it can go down at any point in the match whether it be 30 seconds or 10 minutes.
Ruin is only really meant for early game, it’s not supposed to last all game. If I can get two hooks before it’s gone then it’s done it’s job. It’s supposed to prevent 3 gens from popping while the killer is trying to apply pressure and all survivors are full HP.
There is also other perks that either regress generators, slowdown progression, or gives you information on generators. Surveillance, Pop Goes The Weasel, Dying Light, Thanatophobia, Discordance, Corrupt Intervention, Overcharge, and Surge all come to mind. Players become so attached to Ruin, I’m one of them. Even though I know there are other perks.
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Yes, that's basically what the devs admitted secretly. That's why killers NEED to buffed on swf level to be balanced. But making this game balanced around swf in CURRENT state would make many (me including) quit playing solo Q, cuz they would be so much left behind that it can't be fun anymore.
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Bbq and Kindred basekit aren't similar mate. One buffs the killer, while the other buffs mostly just solo survivors
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I mean, nurse felt from her killer rate around 7% aswell (from pre nerf to after nerf). She became from one of the deadliest to one of the weakest killers according to statistics. 7% doesn't sound much, but from experience it's actually very impactful
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The secret to Nurse is the same as SWF. Her theoretical performance ceiling is much higher than ceiling of any other killer just like performance ceiling of SFW is higher than solo. But she is harder to master, so because of that the real performance gap/spread between bad nurses and very good nurses is much bigger than for any other killer. She feels very powerful and can be devastating in skilled hands, and sometimes you meet such nurse players. But few very good nurses get compensated by the larger number of newbs/unskilled/console nurse players, so that stats don't look that impressive for her (but they are legit nonetheless, it's an average).
SWF's high potential gets compensated by fooling-around and ultra-altruistic gameplay, which brings it back almost to the solo level, though sometimes you meet teams that play seriously and those are the cases when you feel the full potential of SWF.
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Camping is still viable with undetectable killers/perks. Idk why Kindred doesn't trump stealth anymore but if it becomes basekit I can see why it wouldn't.
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They are different, but the overall theory would be for the same purpose.
Tell killers where to go which is free information. While survivors get to see what each other and the killer and where he goes as free information. Both help with doing objectives
While I do agree camping is boring. I dont think Kindred or something similar is the buff survivors need.
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Sorry but base kit Kindred would be pretty game breaking. In it's current form (and even previous form) it is actually very powerful. Their reasoning makes sense. How you can't see it would be way too strong is beyond me.
I'm very thankful that none of you are on the dev team.
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how you cant seem to provide any argument as to why that would be is beyond me.
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If it's gamebreaking, then so is swf. We can't delete swf. So what's left? Kindred basekit, balance the game accordingly (killer buffs). Simple math, it's the only logical way to balance this game
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